102. Rewind: Facilitating Culture Change, One Conversation at a Time with Leanne Hughes Interviewing Prina Shah

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Hello and welcome to this episode of ways to change the workplace with myself pretty much. I love what I do. I'm a global leadership coach, a consultant, a trainer, a team of speaker, a podcaster. I help you to develop your leaders, your teams, and I help you to optimize your organizational cultures. I'm here to help you find ways to change your workplace. Why? Because we spend more time in our waiting days at work than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. So in this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Get ready!

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Hello and welcome to this very special episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with me, your host, Prina Shah, and I am reintroducing you today to my friend Leanne Hughes. She hosts a podcast called The First Time Facilitator. She, like myself, is a consultant, and her thing also, in many ways, is to help organizations to thrive and for people to thrive. She's amazing. Her details are in the show notes. Now, the wonderful thing about this podcast episode is that we're traveling back in time all the way back to 2020. Yes, that dreaded year. But Lianne interviewed me for her podcast then, and it was my first ever ever podcast that I had ever given, and I was so damn nervous, really, really nervous. And Leanne just made me feel comfortable and at ease. So I came across Leanne through social media, Instagram, and LinkedIn. We really got to know each other, and then we found out that we had a common contact called Bonnie Robinson, who works in a consulting land now as well. But in this podcast, I I'm really happy with it. I've listened back to it again, and I want to introduce you to my first ever podcast. So I want to tell you about what we high-level cover. We cover my career origin story. Um, we care my we cover my story in terms of my HR human resources career as well, and how back in that day, when I actually spoke to Leanne in 2020, as you will hear, I was side hustling. So I was working part-time in a paid job, and two days a week I was running this, my own business, my baby. So, in this episode, I've got a heap of tips for anyone who's side hustling, and um, I share the truth, I share the joys, the challenges of side hustling as well. So, I also share my issues. I've got many issues, as you know, and uh I share issues with consultants such as myself, you know, who are culture change consultants, and the good, bad, and ugly of it. I explain why I have compassions for leaders and the role that they play within the workplace. I really talk about culture change from a people power perspective, and I share a shitload of information for you in terms of my facilitation style, my theory, how I work. So Lian really got into my brain in this episode, I have to tell you. She also asked me how I handle fear and how I handle nerves as a consultant. So that's it was really good, fun conversation as you'll hear. We had many a giggle throughout the conversation. Uh, Lianne asked me how I really get into support teams with poor cultures, and then when I'm facilitating, how I deal with you know the really uncomfortable facilitation situations that I've had, and I share examples as well. I also talk about how I try to remain impartial and how I manage my own judgments and my own biases as well. And I share the thrills, the pleasures, and the sorrows of all things facilitation. So strap yourselves in because I'm really proud of this episode. It was my first one ever. So you're you're listening to 2020 Prina, give her a clap. She's fucking brilliant. Much love to you all, and I will see you in the next episode.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Prina, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for the invitation, Leanne. I'm very excited. The funny thing about podcasting and having my own show and being the producer of my own show is that from time to time I just see interesting people doing interesting things, and I think I'd like to get the excuse to talk to them. And uh, this is one of those situations. I think so Prina and I have been friends on Instagram for a while. We've messaged each other, LinkedIn buddies, and it's like it's time to take this to the next level. And I thought, what better way than to meet you virtually through the podcast and find out more about what you do? So I guess that's my question. Like, what do you do, Prina? Share it with me and share it with the listeners. Yeah, okay, and what do I do?

SPEAKER_02 5:31

So I'm a coach, consultant, and a trainer. I support CEOs, leaders, and HR teams, as well as individuals within the workplace, develop their emotional intelligence and their organizational culture. Fantastic. That's me in a snippet, that's my strap line, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Yes. It's good that you got that really clear and concise. How long have you been doing that? And how did you sort of discover this? Have you always been interested in people, in making people perform better?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. Um, so when I was studying from the get-go, I've always been very, very fascinated by the human condition. So I studied a degree in sociology and social psychology, and I thought, oh my God, this is fascinating. Um, ended up in a career within HR, and uh I've had amazing, amazing opportunities within uh my career. So I started off in the UK in large organizations such as British Teles Telecom, Transport for London, uh, consulting companies as well. And so my background uh initially was in HR, and then when I transitioned over to uh my next few roles within the consulting space, it turned more into organizational development. I think you know what that will probably mean, and uh other HR people listening will know what that means. But for people who don't know what organizational development is, there's two sides to HR. There's generalist HR who I guess put the fires out, and then there's organizational development who are more of the proactive uh change agents who support the people putting the fires out. Um, yeah, I landed up in organizational development. I thought, yes, this is my thing. So I'm one of those rare people in HR Lian who has both experiences of generalist HR as well as OD. Um, and I've I've had the opportunity to lead significant culture change for lots of organizations which I've been working in internally and now through my own business supporting organizations as me, which is really cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

That's so cool. So a couple of things, like I guess, yeah, it's funny when people say, Oh, you work in the HR team, I'm very quick to say, No, no, no, I'm in the learning and development or training and development space because there's a kind of different brands and reputations associated with both of those. So it's good that you differentiated that. And you're very lucky that you've also got that generalist experience. I don't have that. And so yeah, I remember some conversations at in my old jobs where I felt like I was lacking because I didn't have that, you know, the IR or that kind of skill, but um kind of navigated around it. So you're you've got a really interesting status in terms of your employment. So you work internally, but you also have this like alter ego, your own business. You're doing both. Um that's pretty inspiring for a lot of people listening. There's a lot of people that work full-time that want to do what you do, just as a little transition. How are you managing both of those worlds?

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Yeah, really well. So you have to be organized. So I'm very lucky. It's it's quite a rare thing, even in this day and age where you know we're talking about flexibility, side gigs, side hustles, all that kind of stuff, to find a role that's part-time that's okay with you doing your own business on the side as well. So I have an amazing manager who really um sees the value in that as well. So, how how do I manage that myself? I have to be very organized with my nine-to-five jobs. So I do that Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. Um, so you know, diary management, all of that, keeping my team across everything and um communicating a lot just to make sure everyone's across everything. And then with my own business, so Thursday and Friday are my business days, as well as weekends and you know, evenings, whenever else, you know, the score. I definitely know that, yes. I try to manage my time effectively. So Thursdays are my big hit days whereby I book in coaching appointments or training appointments, whatever the big ticket item for that week is. Then I need admin time as well. So we've been messaging earlier. I have been doing admin for Fridays. Often I try and keep free, at least Friday afternoon, just to catch up on admin and any um appointments I need to book and whatever else admin you have to do, you know, social media management, financial management, all sorts of stuff. Yeah, so it's juggling the both, but juggling it effectively. And then I have my phone is quite my, that's my business as well, you know. Um, Dropbox, Trello, all of those kind of little tools make life so much easier.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Oh, thanks for sharing some of your favorite tech tools. And yeah, we we we have been joking because we kind of um, I'm the same as you, I have to dedicate time. And actually, just before this call, I was doing invoices because it felt like the only time during the week where I actually had my head above water and that admin, it can pile up, right? It can really pile up. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

And I I I know I do have a tendency to prioritize the things that I really love compared to Excel spreadsheets and numbers, which I have to do as well, and I do do, yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's funny that you say that. Um makes me my my behavior normalized. Now let's talk about organizational culture change. I mean, that is a big beast, isn't it? Can you share some examples? I mean, where do you even start with if you get a client or you work internally and they're like, right, we want to set a new culture? Like, what do you how do you even begin?

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yeah, yep. So we want to set a new culture. COVID has really made that happen for a lot of organizations. It's imposed culture change on organizations. So if I was to work with a client on culture change, I would probably be meeting with the lead team. So whether it be the CEO, the executives, and I always involve HR as my partners, you know. Whatever happens, I always bring HR along. Um, so I will discuss with the executive team the kind of desired culture that they're after and what's lacking at the moment. So different gap analysis, right? So it's really the first discovery meeting, so to speak, is all about understanding where they're at right now. And then working with the leadership team as well as the HR team to work out what their desired culture is. So, you know, that's gonna not gonna happen overnight. Some organizations want to be innovative. What does that really mean? Some organizations want to be achievement focused, yeah. What does that mean? You know, a lot of organizations have their values and whatnot as well. Are they really being embedded within the business? So I have a lot of conversations and meetings and interactions with my stakeholders at the get-go of a project, if it's a culture change project, to understand where the organization's at. I'm also a big fan of celebrating what's working because guaranteed with every organization, there's stuff that's working. Don't break that, don't change it, it's a good thing. Um, and then with the culture change journey, also, you know, once the organization have decided where they want to head and how they want to change the culture, I support them with that either through coaching leaders one-to-one or training programs directly, you know, facilitating culture change in that respect. And um it's a long game, so I help with the back end of comms and you know, pitching everything the right way. Change management is massive as well. So that's I've got lots of expertise in change management, so I embed that within the project as well. Um, and then it takes time, so I'm with my client all the way through.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yeah, amazing. There's a lot of little touch points there. So you're sort of balancing your role between being a consultant versus being the workshop facilitator versus coaching. Like, do you find that you're using a lot of those different mediums to execute on this?

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Absolutely, absolutely, because the other thing, also, one thing about culture change is that the organization, the people, they own the culture, not me. So, uh as great as it is, the organizations, in least the help of consultants, it really has to be brought in by the individuals within the organization and how that's going to happen. That's why I work really closely with HR to understand their pain points as well. So, you know, from a HR perspective, hey guys, what's coming into your inbox? What issues are you having? That's really telling. And then using exit survey data, all of that kind of data to really find out what's happening within the organization and what needs to shift. And then out of that, like you said, Leanne, comes all of the tailored coaching and then tailored training as well to meet their needs.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Nice. Wow. Got so many different that's cool that you can do all of those things and wear all those hats. It's huge. It's it's a good challenge. It is a good challenge. Yes. What I find um interesting. I I I'm interested in culture change. I thought it would be the thing that I would niche down on, but um I I find it interesting. When certainly in organizations where I've been internal, it's like we've got quite these new values, we get the values out there, we talk about it, and then you still see uh particularly from senior leaders, people that we all look up to, not role modeling those behaviors. Things aren't done, it sets a new standard, and it kind of makes the whole experience feel like it just fall flat. And I I honestly have felt a bit disheartened sometimes because it's like, well, how I'm trying to drive this thing, but when you see that, what do we do? Like, how do you navigate that? It's a tough I was throwing you a tough question with that.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

I think it's yeah, you really it is a tough question. Definitely, yeah. So so culture change or you know, organizational culture ideally should be led from the top, and you know, people should be practicing what they're preaching. In the case where they're not, and things go really wrong, and people act, I guess, against the organization's values or behaviors or whatever that might be. That's where people really need to have adult conversations about hey, Leanne, you spoke to our client in this manner, that's really against our values, it was inappropriate, whatever it might be, to really address it in a timely manner. Because often, you know, in our roles, when we are working within, you know, a salary job, there's stress, there's so much that you have to deliver that you might not be your beautiful, emotional, intelligent self throughout the day. You might just have a trigger and just go and explode. And that's okay. We are humans, you know. Um, so little little um compassion there, if you know, a manager here or there, you know, may break. Uh, but if it's a consistent thing, that really needs to be addressed internally. Otherwise, it is just lip service, and then the whole of the organization see that and think, oh yeah, not living to our values, but I have to.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah. It's good that you mentioned compassion, actually. Yeah, because it's yeah, you're right. I mean, I'm certainly not perfect, and and here I am sort of going on about senior leaders, but I've certainly been, there's been moments in my career where I behave a certain way or said something or snapped, and and who saw that, I don't know, and what impact did that have? And you can't really like, I mean, in the moment, you're like, yeah, okay, but afterwards you're like, oh crap, I shouldn't have done that. Um, how do I rewind this moment?

SPEAKER_02 16:40

And that's the thing as well, it happens, and it's okay. We so from an organizational culture perspective, we all have a part to play with the culture, not just the leaders. So, us as employees as well, that's a big factor. I think that people sometimes forget. And if it is a poor culture, it's like, hey, what can I do about it? So, culture change can be led top down or bottom up. But I think people forget that bottom-up aspect, and that's where I really help a lot of my coaches in that one-to-one space. So, all right, what change can you make? And Leanne, I don't know, you know, um, your experience of organizations, there'll be this organizational culture at that umbrella level, then there'll be these microcultures, these little subcultures. I think I want to work with that team, what is it?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

So people can create their own culture, you know, within yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, even the difference between teams on different levels on the same in the same building, or like the team that's on the other side on the West Wing, like they've got a different culture. I wouldn't want to be part of that, but oh, you're absolutely right. And so you think when you try and create a global culture, it's you're right, it's all it can be that the different touch points can happen within those teams, and it really yeah, I wonder what the difference is. I'm thinking usually it's the type the the people within the team, really. Yeah, like that personal accountability.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. People within the team, so within the team level, personal accountability, ownership, and if they've got that uh buy-in off the organization as well, you know, when people are engaged within an organization, and then it's the style of leadership of that team's leader as well, and how they're driving it, how they're advocating for the team, how they're advocating for you know whatever else is happening in the organization as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah. Oh, it's it's like I said, it's a big beast. It's awesome that you're doing this work. Well, can we talk a bit about your facilitation style and maybe think go back to when you started running workshops? What kind of workshops were you running? What was your confidence level like? How have you progressed and built your own?

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Oh my God, I used to be so, so, so nervous with facilitation or yeah, yeah, track time or anything. Um, so actually, when I finished one of my generalist HR jobs, I was the uh leader of this big not-for-profit HR, and I thought, ah, I'm done with the generalist HR, I want to do something completely different and change some, uh enhance some of my skills. One of the skills I really wanted to enhance was my presenting and training facilitation uh style. So I applied for a job at the Chamber of Commerce and Industry in Perth, um, Western Australia, and um I won that role. Uh, you know, fake it till you make it, that's what I did pretty much. So the expectation of the role was that I'd be consulting, I'd be facilitating training sessions, I'd be doing workshops, I'd be keynote presenting at conferences. Wow. Yes, yes, yes. So my second interview was actually with the general manager, and it was a dry run facilitated um training session, and loved it, got the job. I was still nervous though. So I really from for myself, if I'm nervous about something, I have to throw myself in the deep end and just go do it. So that's that role, especially, uh, helped me hone my skills in presenting, in the whole facilitating a conversation first off with a client, and then the whole, you know, facilitating training, designing training. How do I look at it from that perspective? And then how do I end up you know in delivery stage at the end as well? Um, so my facilitation style is very uh freestyle. I feel like I I've I've earned that skill now. I'm okay to walk into a room with my slides or whatever ready and feel comfortable to wing it if I have to. And I've had a few of a few instances where I've had to wing it for sure, you know, when technology breaks or when the key people aren't there to introduce you, those kind of things.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

That whole like the show must go on. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Have you ever had um so it's funny because we've got a mutual friend, Bonnie Robinson. Yeah. So when when I when you were reflecting on your moment to start facilitating that, my first moment was with Bonnie up in Broom. We we just decided that we could run a session on presentation skills for a local Shire. And yeah, we prepared, we prepared. It was funny. I think back to that first workshop, and gosh, it was a talk fest. We were just pretty much lectures, we were lecturing. What a difference. So what a difference, yeah. But it's all about, like you said, just throwing yourself in the deep end and trying different things, and as a result, you get more comfortable. Yes. Um, have you ever had a moment in a workshop that hasn't gone so well for you?

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah, um, and those those workshops, or I had uh one I can talk to last year. So sometimes I get called in to run workshops last minute when things have gone wrong with teams. Ooh, okay. Um, so when I consult with my client at that time, I'll find out at a high level what's gone wrong. But I don't want details, I don't want names, I don't want the who's who. For myself as a facilitator, Lee, and I don't know how you are. I like to go in just blind. I don't want to have blah blah's name in my mind saying, oh, they're the problem person. Whatever. So I went in blind to that workshop. Um, I facilitated it was a team planning day, so more of a strategic planning session for the team, but then there was some behavioral stuff before we got into strategic planning that we needed to discuss, discussed all of that, and you know, throughout the day, there's this, there's you know, arms crossed, and then there's attitude between people, and you can feel the tension in the room as well. Um, so I'm a big fan of getting into the training session early, meeting people one-to-one first off, so you have that connection with them, and then using my breaks effectively as well. So I ended up for that training session giving far more breaks because of the tension within the room. And if I needed to have any conversations within you know the breaks, that's when I would have it. So the way I managed it is just during one of the breaks, talk to uh some of the people who seemed quite tense to find out what the situation was. Once I understood that, I changed, I flipped the style of my workshop to address some of their needs, but then to ensure that it kept on going for the rest of the team as well. Because you know, when you have one person in a workshop lean that's just not into it, you can't let that affect the rest of the group. It still has to be that high energy, and still I still have to deliver, and I've promised to deliver as well, so I need to maintain that. So, parking lots, so facilitation 101 is another good one. Parking lot, big butcher's paper. All right, so if people throw grenades here and there, right? Good point. Let me take that and I'll put it on our parking lot. Let's discuss it at the end of the workshop. So those are the kind of tips I have for yeah, dealing with uncomfortable situations within workshops, it can be dealt with. And I think as a facilitator, Leanne, also, if we listen in that active listening style, especially, you can pick up so much in the room.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

The unsaid. Absolutely, yeah. We talked to I talked to Jacinta Cubis on a recent show. She does facilitography, and it's all about uh building your observation skills. And I've um even I did one of her workshops, and I was like, wow, I'm seeing things on my street in a completely new light. And how can I bring that into the way that I facilitate? So it's just yeah, that like all these different skills that are so important. I mean, I think, um, like you said, going into new rooms, all that variety, the different audience, the context. Um and there are I think there's probably two schools of camp on that. Because I I have had facilitators like you, Prina, that say, I don't want to know anything because I don't want to have like a bias or a preconception. Exactly. I'm I'm sort of like I I'm not there yet though. I like love all the detail and like I want to know as much as I can and laugh it up. So um I'd love to try that out. And and there's some situations like when you keynote speak or whatever where it's just a broad audience you don't know. But um, I love getting a bit of dirt. I don't know, I'm maybe I'm just yeah. I try not, I try not to. I mean, look, let's talk about bias actually, because I guess the reason you don't do that is because you don't want to have that bias when you come in. You want to be that, yeah. So let's talk about that because you're doing a lot of work with unconscious bias as well at the moment. I'm seeing.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

I am, I am, absolutely. So bias as a facilitator, I'm really, really, really always very mindful of, which is why I never ask for names of problem children, let's call them. Um, and bias within a facilitation element as well, Leanne. I think for myself, I try and eliminate bias in that I've got a few examples in one of the pieces of work that I'm doing. So, as a facilitator, Lianne, you know, there's sometimes always that one person who's the challenge is asking, oh, what about, or discounting your value, your opinion, whatever it might be. I love those kind of people because they give you extra examples or extra ideas that we may not have considered. So, from a bias perspective, I guess rather than hating them as the facilitator, thinking, Oh my god, how am I going to deal with this one? I often try and engage a little bit further in conversation with them because there's something there usually, you know, as a facilitator, we often go in blind. So I don't know what's happening behind uh beneath the iceberg. So poking or prodding those people respectfully uh to find out what's really happening, that's gold. So I I I love a good challenge um in a workshop where people are challenging me back. That that's where I think the uh rich conversation comes as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Often, yeah, it often does come off um of something that is provocative and not something that everyone can just accept and nod about. It's gonna be, oh, that's an interesting comment. Yeah, and um, I'm just trying, I can't even think of the word now. When someone's not uh ambivalent, ambivalent, I think is the word. I'd rather work with someone that is actually has an opinion. Yeah. Uh but that's probably my own bias as well. I mean, and that's what I'm comfortable with. And I think this is the thing about facilitation, and a lot of people that are really experienced facilitators still come on this show and say, like, I'm still learning, I'm still growing, because it's just yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

Every facilitation is so different. You don't know what you're going into as much as you know you're planned and prepared. You don't know what's happened with people during that day, you don't know what's gonna happen with yourself that day. I remember, gosh, long ago, I've been following your post for a while. You put something about you were uh traveling at that time and there was something that happened with your shirt. I think you didn't find yeah, and you're like, okay, gotta fix it. So, do you want to talk about that example? I think we just have to wing it, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, like it was just it was down the Gold Coast. It was one of my first gigs out of corporate, left my job a week later, was running this um this two-day retreat, which was amazing. I couldn't believe it. Beautiful Gold Coast. Yeah, and so the next morning, I had a really crazy night, good sleep. Um, like took my time in the morning, I was like, Yeah, everything's great. Then I was about to then I was like ironing my shirt and I realized I was this massive, like it, I don't know what had happened, like it just had torn. So um then I had to like ah picking because I had to like revamp the whole outfit because it was dependent on that top, and then so then I'm like, you know what I wear, and then it just put me under immense pressure. So the time I get there, I'm like sweating, you know, when it was like this really steady morning, and it just yes, that's why I got one of my first rules in facilitation is iron your shirt the night before. It's like a metaphor for like just get everything but prepared the night before.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Exactly right, and as a facilitator, winging it in that manner, so with your own material, you know, going uh over and beyond, so you're prepared, you've got everything, you've got extra everything as well. You're covered that way, but then during the day you don't know what's gonna happen. And I I like that. I I like that aspect of you know, walking into a room and you don't know how it's gonna go. Generally, it always goes well so far from my experience. But I I like that excitement of facilitating and not knowing how the workshop's gonna go, having an idea of what the outcomes I want are, but going with the flow during the day.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

That's just it's good that you respond to that because I think there's a lot of people that would love to be in what we do in facilitation, but they just that unexpected thing like will drive, like they they wouldn't be able to handle that. I I feel like it maybe attracts a certain type of person who because I mean there's certainly been experiences where I I have woken up and gone, is this really what I want to do? Because it is so unpredictable and there's a lot of uncertainty. And but I think it's it goes back to everything I'm learning from this show about some preventative strategies to get people feeling in like that rewarded state when they walk in and not feeling threatened, all that prevention stuff is really important. So, like in terms of your personal preparation, I love that you pack extras. That's so cool. No one's ever said that before. Yes. Um, yeah, extras that's so true. Like, uh, what how else do you prepare? Like maybe like the night before or the morning of to get yourself in that you know energetic state where you need to be.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Oh, yes. I'm a meditator, so I I I need I need to meditate. I just need that clear mind. Um, so meditation has to happen. Um, lots of water as well. And then in terms of preparation, I like to get there early, like most facilitators, get there early. Uh, ensure that prior, yeah, yeah, a week or two prior, that my slides are already or my materials already, including whatever extra I need to bring. And then um during the day also, you know, as people walk through the room, just keeping in mind and engaging with them as soon as they walk through the room. I think as a facilitator, our role is so important in making people feel welcome and safe as soon as they're within our space that we've created.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

It's it's so true. And like that's I I ran these workshops last year and they they kicked off at nine o'clock, which is pretty late. Usually, like usually in Australia, we start off early, but it started at nine. But people were arriving, like I was getting into the room about 7:30, and people were already there, and that struck like I was I hated that because it was like they were watching me set up and I didn't have that time. Yeah, so I I think they read somewhere someone was talking about having like they send people out to a waiting room or do something else, and yeah, I I because I agree with you, I love getting in early and having that me time and then switching the focus to someone else.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

And then at the end of the workshop, what I always always do now is um I'll finish early, so half an hour early or whatever, people think yes, you know, so that's a big win. So time management is the big thing, but because I'm finishing half an hour early, I also say I'm here, I'm hanging around. Come talk to me one-to-one if you have any questions or comments or if you want to learn more. And that's where often, if I'm dealing with more of the difficult cultural workshops, culture change workshops where people don't feel comfortable talking in that last half an hour or during the breaks, Lianne, that's when people come and talk to me one-to-one. That space, especially, is really important to have for the quiet people in the workshops. So talking about bias again, there'll be the loud people that talk, and there may potentially be groupthink as well. And as a facilitator, you don't want to say, Lianne, you're being really quiet. Do you want to talk now? You don't want to pick on people that way, but there's other ways during breaks and especially after the session also, getting people's feedback and opinions.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, I love that lingering time, and I feel like honestly, that's something probably I'm probably missing from Zoom calls. Oh, yes. You know, like I had a call yesterday and it finished on the hour, and then I was like, oh look, I'll just hang out and just talk to people, you know, for 10 minutes or so while we everyone leaves, and that was really nice, but it still feels like like the second you hit because people are still talking and waving and you're hitting end meeting and it just it just stops. Yeah, about linger time. The other thing um you brought up about breaks. So, because I am pretty high energy facilitator, I I will move the energy like I'm not gonna be like crazy all day, but it you know, oscillate. Contrast is a big thing I talk about. Then during the breaks, I really need to like go to the bathroom, refill my water bottle, like just do my own sort of self-care work. And I find it really hard to balance that with uh talking. I want to talk to people, I know I need to have to, but it's like, hang on, just give me 10 minutes to sort myself out. Like, do you how do you manage both of those worlds? Are you the same?

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Yeah, yeah, completely. And one tip I have learned is give the group an activity before the break, give them five minutes or whatever, during which time I'll pop out to the loo, chop up my water, whatever else, and then come back for the breaks. I've had my break by then, their turn.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Super clever. I didn't even think of that. Yeah, that's something to incorporate into my design. Like where the breaks, okay, get an activity where they'll be so absorbed they won't realize that I'm out outside. That's awesome. So, advice for first-time facilitators for you to talk to yourself and give yourself some advice when you were first starting. What do you think you'd you'd say?

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Yeah, just do it. That's a good one. Throw yourself in the deep end. It's okay, because really, what's the worst case scenario? Really, what is gonna go wrong? We're not brain surgeons, we're not operating on people, you know, it's not a life and death situation. So do it. The other big, big thing I have learned also is be yourself. People come to you for your personality, for your style, for whatever you bring to these workshops. Um, so and that takes time as well. It's taken me time to work out who I am and what my facilitation style is. So while she can be prepared, do all of that. There may be nerves as well. I think nerves are pretty good, Leanne. I don't know about you, but a little bit of adrenaline, that's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so nervous excitement is what I call it. That's okay. Um, and then as a first-time facilitator, remember your personality, remember to be yourself rather than sticking to the slides or whatever content you have to have. Um, because once people connect, facilitation is all about connection, whether it be through coaching, consulting, or training, then, right? It's that connection that people want.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah, I I was having a conversation, I can't even remember, it was earlier this week, uh, and I was um just reflecting on a story when I was in Hong Kong last year running some programs, and at the end of it, the guy gave one guy gave me feedback and he was like, Oh, my favorite part of that whole three days is when you stuffed up that story on what I I stuffed up, like I didn't have the data, or I just couldn't tell the story well. It was just kind of failed because that was the first time like it wasn't perfect or professional. It was like you actually showed who you really were, had a laugh at yourself, and I was thinking, oh gosh, I would that wish I did that on day one. But it you're right, it I think we do put a lot of pressure on ourselves to like nail the content and be professional and have all the extras and everything ready to go. But people actually connect with that whole actually, they they do stuff up, they make mistakes, they're human. That whole human yeah, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Completely, and you do have to freestyle in a workshop also because you're gonna get people coming up with something that you don't know about, so be prepared for that. And I guess because I've had a lot of experience now as well, I've got analogies or I've got life experience, or I can chuck a story here or there and relate to the person by summarizing or paraphrasing whatever it might be and just bringing them within the journey.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

I love that. I love that you say that you've because usually when I think of my toolkit, it's like, oh, the next sort of icebreaker or activity, but your like metaphor, analogies, stories are awesome to have. That's really cool. Uh, I'm gonna say if you are listening to this, you've got to follow Prina on Instagram because we're just talking about bringing in personality and uniqueness, and you're on there all the time, like sharing your story and talking to camera. Yep. Um, and I think it's something that's worth following. If you're trying to figure out you know where you are, where you stand, what your facilitation style is, follow Prina and just see what she's doing on there. Because that's how that's how this whole conversation happened. Because I've connected with you because of your stories, right? It's some curiosity. Absolutely. Yeah, rather than just a name and a photo. It's like, oh, I'd love to chat to you.

unknown 36:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

So about oh, sorry, go.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Thank you. I was gonna say in relation to Instagram, I use that as my playground, and LinkedIn is more my office, is how I like to like and yeah, absolutely. So for anything behind the scenes, Instagram is your place.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

I'll throw in another analogy there. So well done. Yeah, if Alice would love to follow more, you know, more of your work, find out more about you, connect with you. Should we send them to the playground, the office? Where should we where should we start?

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Oh Instagram and LinkedIn. They're my main um areas, yeah, that I'm on.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Awesome. And we'll throw a link to that uh and your website in the show notes as well. Yep, beautiful. Priya, it's been a delight chatting to you today and hearing your just I love the product, the practical stuff that you shared, as well as your whole philosophy around creating organizational change and like sort of chunking it down, but also exploring all the different mediums. It's we we took we're talking on the show to facilitators, but people are also consultants, coaches, and we also have to wear those hats at different stages. So completely.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

And we don't facilitate in just training, we facilitate in life. Really, there's so much.

SPEAKER_00 37:59

Absolutely. Yeah, conversations when at restaurants when you can't get what you want. Oh, yeah. It's been a delight. Thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thank you, Leanne.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

All details about this episode are in the show notes. If you like this episode, I'd like you to take a moment and think about at least two people who might enjoy it. And please share the episode details with them too. Also, don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and on Instagram. I am freena. See you there too.