155. Fear, Trust and the Cost of Playing It Safe at Work – A Real Conversation with Prina Shah and Trina Sunday

SPEAKER_01 0:03

This podcast is for people who know that the workplace can and should be better and are ready to do something about it. You'll learn practical ways to change organizational cultures and human behaviour without buzzwords, without box ticking, without performative leadership. I am the boss of Prena Shark Consulting, working with executives, leaders and teams to create work cultures and environments that actually work for people. I am Prina Shah. I specialise in organizational culture change and human behaviour change. I am all about making work better with people who give a damn. So if you think I can help, contact me via LinkedIn. I am here to help you to find decent ways to change the workplace. Let's do this. This episode is with my friend Trina Sonde, who is an expert in all things reimagining HR. So imagine she is HR for HR and we all freaking need that. I remember back in my day when I worked in the corporate world, I really needed someone to look out for me. Trina is your lady in that respect. I am an organizational culture expert and human behaviour change expert, and I bring my lens to this conversation on the topic of fear within the workplace. It's a juicy one. We cover all sorts. I would love to hear back from you. Drop me a message, my details are in the show notes, and let me know what other kinds of topics you would like me to cover and who else you'd like me to speak to as well. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

There's been a few posts floating around on LinkedIn, and my dear friend and colleague Preena Shah and I thought that we would have a chat around trust and fear and what it's doing in our workplaces. And fear and trust to me sits at opposite ends of the employee experience. And for me, HR often sits right in the middle, absorbing the fear, protecting the trust, and helping leaders navigate both. Preena's obviously doing a lot of work with leaders, and we're hoping that this casual conversation is going to explore what happens when we start leading with heart instead of fear. And so I'm really happy to have this chat, Preena. What's showing up for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Me too. Oh my gosh. So thank you so much for commenting on my post on LinkedIn. It was such a an interesting comment that you posted about leaders coming at things from, I guess, a scarcity and a bit of a fearful mindset at the moment. And then, you know, you and I got talking. So, let's talk about this in detail. So let's just do this. What's coming across at the moment? So you really got me thinking about this, Trina, in terms of what does fear look like, especially in leadership today. I'm seeing a lot. I don't know if it's just because of you know the time of the year, it's nearly Christmas, people feeling burnt out, overwhelmed, everything else in between. But I've got some ideas. So what I'm seeing, not across the board, but definitely with um leaders who need help, let's just call it. I'm seeing a sense of control, definitely control, perfectionism, which then often leads to indecision, Trina. Um obsessing over KPIs. Uh, what else am I seeing? People pleasing, that's one part of it as well. Talent hoarding as well, not letting their people go or not sharing their people as well. That's another biggie I'm seeing. Um, and essentially this is pretty much micromanagement under the guise of high standards, really. Yeah. Um, so yeah, when you when you got talking about that on LinkedIn, I thought, oh, actually, I am seeing that in certain pockets.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

And there's lots of habits in that, right? So I think I it's one of the things I'd mentioned to you where, you know, when I look at it through a HR lens, it's the compliance aspects, the command and control. Yeah, you know, for me it is compliance over courage. I'm not seeing as much courage as I did um a few years ago. And the risk adversion, I talk about that and have I know with you around that being disguised as safety, you know, like we can't do that, we've got to keep our people safe. And it's like there's nothing safe about avoidance.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

You know, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

There's nothing safe about indecision, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

No. Can I jump onto this one? I love compliance over courage. So, one thing I'm really seeing, and I don't know if you're coming across this as well. So, psychosocial, all of that kind of stuff. It's not new, but it is new to some. And you know, lots of leaders have had training or upskilling in this. Trina, some of my clients are scared. Oh my gosh, with all of this stuff, to the point where they've become avoidant now in having that conversation, in dealing with that issue in case something blows up, you know. So they are just doing this, they're putting their hands up and just not dealing with things. I think that's one factor potentially as well. Have you come across this? Do you see this?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Yeah, I am seeing that, and I think that part of it is, you know, and it's the same thing we've had socially and societally, I think, around political correctness. Oh, yeah. Where we have people that throw it around that's like, oh, that's so, you know, everything's so PC now, I just can't be a normal person. We'll define what a normal person is for a start. But but all that means is that, you know, from uh whether it's emotional intelligence or empathy or for me, it's just knowing who's around you, right? Like and having confident conversations that come from a place of good intent.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

And I feel like even the conversations in our workplaces where things are sticky, tricky, and everything in between, we're avoiding those conversations. I think there is a capability gap. And I think, and I'll welcome your thought around this in a minute, but you know, there is a capability gap, I think, where we've had some people that are in leadership, people leadership roles that really haven't had a chance to practice this and build the management muscle, you know, like where it becomes second nature.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

And when you're learning something new, it's scary, right? You're anxious doing something for the first time. And so I think for people that have had really strong mentors or leaders that have had these courageous conversations or they've seen them happen because they've been had with them. Yes. I feel like it's different in terms of how they're going to show up.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Ooh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Capability gap. So I think that's one part of it, but I think there's also a really fine line between accountability and fear, right? Oh, totally. Absolutely so. You know, and I think that avoidance is coming from a place of fear. And this is the thing, because your post started out as a conversation around trust. I feel like I hijacked it with the fear-based leadership comment. It did. But I feel like they go hand in hand because it's when we don't have trust that we have fear. Totally. And that's where I'm finding the language a bit interchangeable in my world, not necessarily for the people I'm working with. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

I I get that completely. And that goes to, you know, the scarcity mindset or the abundance mindset. What kind of mindset do you have as a leader? If it's a scarcity one, it's like chicken little, you know, the sky's constantly falling. Yes, you may not have the capability or the skills or whatever, or the will, even, you know, we could go there. Um, or is it a case that you're just avoiding it? I mean, Trina, that's the other thing. So definitely a capability thing, but then you work with executives. I work with executives. Like, come on, how many, how many, yeah, radical candle, how many books have there been on frigging having a difficult conversation as well? Have people not been upskilled on this? And if they haven't been upskilled on this, why are they not learning themselves? I mean, we've got information out there at our hand, you know, at the touch of a phone, we can upskill ourselves. I think there's this something deeper in terms of that fear aspect that you really tapped into. I don't know what it is though. I think definitely there's a psychosocial stuff in that managers or leaders feel that, you know, people will complain about them and then things will go wrong and they'll get into trouble. But then I think I'll go deeper, uh, Trina, and say that maybe it's a system of the workplace that's potentially creating this as well. Because if you think about our um performance cycles and our performance system, so just a basic performance and development plan, right? If you think about back in the day when you were at work and when I was at work, we are pitched against other people already. So I'm already, you know, Trina against Prina already. Like, come on. So that creates that, I guess that conflict within myself that no, but I'm only competing against myself. But in a workplace perspective, no, you're not. You're competing against others, all right? Um, and I know a lot of workplaces don't have that uh performance-related pay, but imagine the ones that do. Oh my gosh, I tell you, that is cutthroat. Those cultures are something different altogether.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Yeah, and those systems are rigged. So I think there's a few things in there that come up for me around, you know, equity in our workplaces as well, and how the nine box grid um doesn't serve that purpose. And then we look at wanting people to think outside the box and be innovative and experiment, and then we literally put them in a box, right? We put them in a quadrant. Yeah, and so I think I think we've lost touch with what human-based um workplaces look like. I think we've lost b touch with humanity, to be honest. If I go deeper even society, my language. Let's do this. I think we've got we've lost kind of where heart sits in work, in politics, in you know, where we are in our communities. We've lost sight of what it means to be connected humans.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

And I think that that's something that we kind of need to lean into. And it's certainly something I'm passionate about trying to bring back into our workplaces, right? Like for me, all of my work is around empowering HR leaders to be courageous change makers, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Redefining the future of work. And then I I do, I sometimes I balk at the language around future of work, but when you break it down, it's like it's exactly what it is. And if you think about it outside of digitization and AI where people like to focus, or hybrid work conversations, yeah. It literally has the intersection of where we are from a humanity perspective. If we want the future of work to be human, yeah, and human first, and to serve our people interests and our profit interests, then we've got to get the sweet spot right.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Can I get on my high horse?

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Get on.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Okay, on my high horse, on my high horse. You have been trained in the best of best culture change theories and practices, no doubt. So have I in my corporate days. A lot of those theories were by men who were consultants who didn't usually work within the workplace, American often as well. Um, those workplace theories are still out there and still influencing leaders, right? Whereas your way of working and my way of working are very different. So in my book, Make Work Meaningful, How to Create a Culture That Leaves a Legacy, I have a whole chapter on leading with head, heart, and a backbone. So, head, you've got to have that clarity, you've got to have, you know, the discernment, whatever else. You have to have heart. Like as a leader, come on, you've got to give a crap about your people, about what you're doing, knowing why you're there as well, knowing why your people are there. And then you have to have a backbone, and that's that fear. You need to have that conversation or you need to do that thing. And I think, yes, people generally lead with a heart. Sorry, a head, a heart. We're getting there. It still sounds like woo language often. Backbone, this is a conversation about the fear and the mistrust, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

And I think the you know, the back, I think it is the system, as you talked about. Like if if I look at the anatomy of fear, I feel like fear hides behind process. Yeah. So fear, you know, and we often call it, and certainly from a HR space, and I know you look with a different lens, but you've worked in HR and OD, so you've got the balance of both sides and you've had that insight like I do. But we hide behind it and call it thoroughness, yeah. Being thorough, but it's really control. Oh my gosh, isn't it? And I really do see that from a HR lens, which is the space that you know I'm working really hard to level up where we are in HR.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

But it's about creating safety, and you talked about psychosocial hazards or psychological safety, and they are two quite different things, but like you know, creating safety has become so sanitized that honesty's disappeared.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Okay. I'm gonna ask you to get on your high horse if I may, Trina. Okay, I'm working with a few organizations who are going through restructures, and no doubt you are as well. HR have a two-week consultation period. I have some issues with it, which I will share in a sec. But w what are your thoughts about that consultation period and how it's being used at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 13:06

So I think it's process for process sake, right? So I'm currently working with a client driving massive restructure, happens to be restructuring, transforming a people, culture, environment function in a broader corporate service remit, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

I got given the project timeline, mapped out all the processes and the steps.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And I got to step three of about 104. Oh no. And I said, Great that you've got a restructure or a structural change process. Great. Because you've got to map out all the tasks, right? To know that you know, know what you're doing and when. But I said, we don't have people in the right headspace for this. There's a different learning that needs to happen in this situation, in this context, where we are wanting to move to a structure that is going to be perceived as quite radical. Not radical for Trina Sunday, but radical for our traditional um practices and people that have worked in that way on the ground for a very long period of time. So it depends on the circumstances. So my problem with processes, and this is where I come from a human-first leadership approach, and that is you've got to look at the people to understand the puzzle. And so these puzzle pieces don't fit together currently because people don't understand. If I'm then going to displace everyone in that team because I say they don't have the capability, how do I know they don't, however, have the potential?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

So if I don't test the conversations, test the structure, put some rigor into really healthy human-to-human interaction, say, here's the concept. Like talk me through the world according to you. And but there's a degree of now, this is easy because it's a HR transformation, and this is the space where yeah, I'll get on my whole high horse the days, right? Because this is my SME space as well. But it's like, yes, what if in embracing that concept we're educating people that there's a different way? Yeah, there's a new way. And from a HR leadership perspective, I believe there's an opportunity in every single interaction we have as people to show curiosity into what other people's experiences are and to introduce different ways of doing things that might light other people up. And if you have people that attitudinally are on board, open, curious, and they're like, I'd be game on for that, but I've never had the opportunity. No one's ever talked about it that way. I've never I would put those people in that job seven probably times out of ten, just made that stat up. But most of the time, I would put people in that job and give them a crack. Yeah, yeah. Because if you've never tested it, why would you displace an entire team?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

If they haven't been given the opportunity to work differently.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

No.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

But you've got to set the mandate, right? Now none of that, in my experience, happens in two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

No, thank you. And uh, one of the things you said is that we're educating people in the new way, definitely in that consultation period, ideally. But I want to flip the script as well. I think people are educating us as well, because you know, they will tell us this will work, this will not work. And I know, yes, there's always naysayers, but these naysayers often say stuff that other people are thinking. So we really need to consider the full picture uh before we go into that whole change process and you know, tick, we've done our two-week change consultation. Um, so I think we can use that two-week change consultation in such a beautiful, more engaging, more humane manner, like you're saying as well, and then not have our plan, you know, set in stone. We could we could flex it, you know, depending on what's come, but that's not how the system works, unfortunately, most of the time. The powers that will the powers that be will decide. And often you've been there, I've been there. We are the puppets in the middle as HR who have to do the thing. You know, I think that's a crappy position to be in.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

But it's also why I'm so fired up, though, right? Like it's why it's why I'm so invested to talking with the HR leaders and teams who feel stuck in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

And it's that, and I it's uh the pulp fiction in me. But you know, that song Joker's to left of me, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Um, it's it's I think you know, we need to be able to look at what our role is in that. So what I don't accept is HR throwing their hands up in there and it's like, oh, I'd love to, but exec won't let me.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Um, try harder. So my challenge to that is your role is to influence, your role is to add value to the business, understand what the business imperative is, figure out how to help with the people mandate to make that happen. But I think to your point around we learn in that consultation period, yeah, we learn volumes. We might learn what people's capability is. We might absolutely learn more about the work because it's done by the people closest, you know, those people are closest to the work, so they know the most about the work. But it's through those conversations that you figure out is it the design of the job or the organization, the team, is it the is it the capability of the people? Is it that there's just a knowledge gap? Is it that there is, and this is where I'm curious to know your thoughts. In my experience, that consultation shows me most of the time that it's cultural issues in an organization that's the problem, not the structure.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Yep.

unknown 18:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

So then what do we do?

SPEAKER_01 18:46

And here's a restructure to fix up whatever's the issue is. Well, we're not actually getting to the root cause of the issue ever, right? Because we've just got this new world that we've just deemed that is the way forward. Absolutely so. And I think going back to what you said, I loved everything that you said about HR. And you know, no, well, the executive said, therefore, I don't have a leeway or whatever. No, I mean, I've been there myself and I know it's easier said than done, but you have to have those tough conversations as a HR practitioner for your own frigging sanity as well. And I've had to have many a conversation when I was working in corporate days with many an executive to say, hey, I am the employee advocate for all. I'm not just there for you, you know, and that's a tough conversation to have and a tough boundary to place as well. But as soon as you start to think of yourself in that manner, life changes. And I think your relationships change as well. But then as a HR practitioner, when I started doing that, my job really was to obviously still maintain the good relationships that I had with, you know, the powers that be. But then to re-educate them as well as to this is what a good HR practitioner is, and this is how I can really truly serve you to the best of my potential, and this is how we all get far together. And you know, I think then once I did that, Trina, that elevated my cred, my credibility, so to speak, even more with my stakeholders. But tough conversation to have, I tell you.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

And I think the challenge is our HR teams are stuck in the same fear-based environment that everyone else is. Yeah, totally. You know, like they're at the mercy of, and I I recorded this on my last podcast and put this micro podcast episode out in my last one because it was I have so many HR peers and colleagues that are just kind of feel like they're imploding. Like that they they're just they're not coping with that tension, that tension point, which is a juggle all of the time, yeah, but just can't win, right? Like getting slammed from all corners. And I think so there is a fear across HR in having those conversations. There's two things that kind of, you know, when we look at the courage to challenge executive, for example, um, probably three things actually, but like you you've got to have the capability, like you've got to know what you're doing to have a strong base to challenge from, right? So you need to be knowledgeable. We we know that you've got to be good at your craft, yes. But you also need to, you know, have confidence. And so fear or a lack of trust strips away confidence. Yes, and so you can be the smartest person in the room, but if you're not confident enough to get on the stage, then you can't share those smarts with the world. Yeah, if you you know, like if I was scared about what people thought of me, I would not have a podcast, you wouldn't either.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Because I share the world, according to Trina, pretty unfiltered. Um, as I know you show up as yourself as well. And it's like there's gonna be people that will criticize things I say and you know, and and good on you kind of thing. But that that confidence and the and the capability are key. But then the third element I always think about that comes unstuck is is clarity.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

And so I think what's difficult is we are often trying to Navigate this without having clarity on where the goalposts are to then challenge if they're moving, or you know, where we fit in to that scenario. And so I think I'm seeing fear and trust, which is the irony, stopping us from having the conversations that could address some of the fear and mistrust or distrust.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

I think you've just nailed so much here. Oh my gosh. So this year, um last year I published my book, Make Work Meaningful, How to Create a Culture That Leaves a Legacy. People freak out at the word legacy trainer. It's like, oh my God, I'm not dead yet. I'm not near the end of my career. It's like you can leave a freaking legacy every single day. So having you know worked with many leaders this year and uh working on forget your values, forget your corporate mission, all of that. Trainer Sunday, what is the legacy that you wish to leave within the workplace? Asking that question of individuals, I tell you, is something else. It's really frigging hard work. Some teams seem to just get there and they know it and they've just got the answer. Some teams or some individuals, doing this as an individual activity is really juicy. So I do this as an individual activity first, and then everyone shares, you know, the legacy I want to leave is blah, blah, blah. And you just see the way that people connect with each other after that. And Trina, once you know what your legacy that you want to leave is, you've got that. You've got, I think it gives you that confidence.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Because I've got clarity over mine now, right? So this is where I used to a lot of my work through Reimagine HR is about, I talk a lot around transforming our workplaces so they're places where people can thrive instead of survive. And I use words that people are using all over the place, and now because everyone else is doing it, I don't want to use them anymore. But I became I I, you know, I have a really strong belief around if if HR can transform our workplaces and we change our work experiences, then happier and healthier people go home to their families. Our families have more impact on communities, and together we change the world. I quite boldly would say Trina Sunday's here to change the world, right? Yeah, man. Totally. But I think what I've realized is that's not my legacy. Yeah. That's got, and this is the first time you're saying this out right out loud. The first time you're saying it out loud, and that is I've realized that my legacy is not about changing the workplaces, it's about changing the HR profession. So the legacy I want to leave is for the HR profession to be in a better place than where I found it. And for HR leaders to be able to step in boldly, proudly, confidently, and with value to be able to change the world. So the outcome of me wanting to change the world is still the same, which is why I do what I do in Cambodia. It's what I do with gender equity, it's what I do around economic abuse, it's what I do with all the pro bono things I do. It's still about changing the world, right? But at the end of the day, it's this unrelenting question around what makes people happy. And that's what ties, that's what ties it all together for me, right? So my legacy is about empowering HR to be the courageous change makers, and everything I do moving forward is going to be supporting me moving closer to that legacy.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Perfect. Absolutely, and I've worked out what mine is. My legacy is to help leaders to be the best that they can be, so that people are happy at work, happy at home, their communities are happy, their you know, societies are happy, and it's that it's that flow-on effect, isn't it? Whatever happens at work, yeah. So we talk the same language completely, so Trina.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

And it's why it's why we always bounce and why I always love spending time with you because you know, we're so fueled by the people that are in the middle of all of it.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

And while we both work in both angles, you support a lot of the time, predominantly leaders, I'm supporting predominantly most of the time HR. And then together we're tackling the same thing from different angles, right? And I love that.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

I think a lot of it's about you know, I think about where HR is, and I think about the bravery that it's gonna take for us to be able to rebuild trust, you know, change our workplaces to try and address fear. And I'm keen to know, you know, like if fear breaks trust, yeah, what's gonna rebuild it, Preena?

SPEAKER_01 26:24

I I have some ideas. I've got a whole chapter on it. Okay, so you've probably done a heap of work on your own business, as have I. Uh, from a marketing perspective, you know, I've really been learning about how do people trust me as Preena Shah, you know, as my business. So um in my book, I've got a whole chapter on the no like and trust principle. So, first off, Trina, you know, we're randoms working together in a team. It's like a freaking blind day. We can't just, you know, move on to trust overnight. You have to wine and dine me first, like get to know me, right? So, from a work perspective, we need to get to know each other first off. How do we get to know each other? There's so many different ways. There's formal ways, there's informal ways. There's bringing Trina into the workplace to you know hold a team development session with us. Um, there's all sorts of stuff you can do. And taking your leadership hat off as well, I think, as a leader is really important in that no, no phase. So everyone's on the same level, okay? So we all get to know each other. Then we can work out whether we like each other, right? And Trina, you and I don't have to be best friends, but we have to have some kind of mutual respect if we're in a team together. So there's that likability aspect. And then eventually I feel we get a trust. So I did a whole session on this last week with a team, and you know, there's so many people who've written about trust, Lencioni and a million others. But I think it really comes down to we have to get to know each other, we have to like each other most of the time, we're not gonna be best friends all of the time. And then the trust comes. It's a long, long game. It's not gonna happen overnight. And then you know, there's forming, storming, norming, all of the different things that happen within a team. But if we've got that foundation, the good foundation, we're good. We can have that head-to-head conversation that we need to without you feeling awkward, without me feeling, you know, um hurt or whatever it might be. We can just have it out.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah. And I think it's I think people think that trust is often these really big um bold gestures, though. And this is where I feel like many of us have got it really wrong, right? Like, so this is where it's about, and I talk about in my business moments that matter, but like really in our workplace, the micro moments, right? They're the mini itty bitty things that we do consistently that kind of show that we have empathy and that there's clarity and can but consistency is queen here. Like um, I suppose king, but you know, like consistency is kind of where because then we are predictable. We trust people who are predictable. Yes, and so if you've ever had to deal with someone who is not predictable in how they show up, and we're seeing a lot of this societally as well with some of our mental health challenges or substance abuse um kind of nuances. Um, wrong word there. So I hope that's not insensitive to some people. But I think what I'm trying to get at is that it's hard to reason with unpredictability or insanity. And in some of our workplaces it feels like there's no rhyme or reason to things, and so there is a lack of trust because we just have no idea what the hell's going on.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

So clarity helps give us that. The empathy part is understanding where each other are coming, but the micro things absolutely I was in the print room and here's your stuff. This looked really sensitive. I wanted to bring it straight over. It's the you know, just it's the small gestures. And it's the same thing that would happen in your home.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Absolutely, the micro, but the impact is so macro, right? Yeah, um, I've got a whole chapter on moments that matter is what I call them. And these moments that matter are true to you and your culture that you're building. The moments that matter that I create for my team might be completely different, something else altogether, right? Another thing I did, uh sorry, my latest newsletter talks about false agreement. I don't know if you're coming across this as well. So false agreement, you know, uh, it looks like we all agree after two people nod. Uh the other voices don't get heard. Or uh do we all agree? Do we all agree? You know, manager looking at the clock and just ending the meeting quickly. Um a chat that's 99% solution and only 1% dissent. I think if you're not having healthy debates, what the hell is wrong here? What is happening? There's something too polite, I guess. You know, the stiff upper lipped English kind of situation I can bring as an example here. Um when people don't speak up, I think it's really frigging dangerous. And that that, yeah, yeah, that's that's an issue for organizations and for leaders, especially, because you don't know what's happening, and people have just checked out.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

And I think that comes back to safety as well, though, right? Like um, I think that comes back. And this is why when I hijacked your posts, it's like all roads lead to fear or from fear, not to fear. From yeah. From fear to freedoms where I'm playing, right? And so, but it's how do we get there? How do we but I think this is the thing around the human first aspect here, even with those meetings where we want to encourage debate, yeah, we know that people aren't going to debate in the room. So if we know that in advance, why aren't we sharing things and gathering input exactly through contributory tools and forms and using our you know online to gather intel, gather insights, understand where we need to really focus our conversation. And it's like you take all of the agreeable and the and the other things out of it and you debate the position in the middle that's not clear. But we we don't do that. We have the traditional let's go in the room, have a chat. We've got command and control still, where we've got the most senior person in the room, you know, talking about things. Um, it's like when I talk to some of my groups around the hippo effect where it's the highest paid, highest paid person's opinion. And so, you know, I'll be in rooms and say, you know, I all I can see is the hippo effect. And people are like, what are you talking about? It's like, oh you know, we're just pulling rank here and then everyone's filing in behind. That's not healthy debate, and that's what trust feels like when it's working, right? You have people that can healthily challenge that tell the truth, yes, because they feel that they can, because that's our job.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Because they feel that they can. That's the thing, right? And how can you? So I think your audience, HR people, and you know, my audience leaders, I think the answer is really tapping into your own legacy that you want to leave. What's that thing that you want to give, not to the workplace, but to the wider world, the bigger piece today, not at the end of your deathbed. What you know, Trina, we're gonna be working until God knows how long, right? So we may as well make it meaningful. That's my thing. Um, so really tapping into that aspect is so, so important. And then I'm telling you, things really do change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, and I think I think one of the things is, and what I'm cognizant of, is there'd be a lot of people listening to us chat and think, what a privilege to sit there and be mapping out your legacy. Like I'm in the trenches here, like who the hell are these woo-woo women that are like sitting there in business and yeah, you know, I think, you know, because I I get challenged quite a bit around the language of, you know, I used to be game changer, I'm moving more so yes, you know, like it's but it's true, it's like I want to move people from game player to game changer, don't we? You know, and I've got a whole methodology around how to do it. Yeah, so you know, that's for coaching clients, it it works.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

It works, yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

And but do you know what works around it? And this is when I was just listening to you reflect then. We can't affect or be clear on the legacy or kind of what we bring to the table when we haven't done the self-work.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

No, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Again, this is when people are like, nah, man, I'm out.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

What do you mean I have to change myself? No. And I think if we could shift this, I feel like HR are trying to change the world. We're trying expecting leaders to change, you know, change everything. But I think we need to strip it all back, to be honest. And it's just about individuals being able to figure out to your point who they are, and and maybe legacy is a big word for them, you know. But it's what do you want to be better tomorrow than it is today?

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

And what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Oh, a hundred percent. And I would add to that as well. So, you know, those people who are feeling super disempowered. I've been there, you know, myself as well. I would ask those people who are listening thinking, yeah, bullshit, ladies, you know, whatever. Um, I want you to consider if you are really disagreeing with this, good, thank you. Let us know. Get in touch with us. We want to hear, you know, from yourselves as well. But I want to ask you, are you the passenger in your career or are you the driver? Usually, Trina, those people who are really pissed off at work, you're like, everything's not good, blah, blah, blah. They point the finger to someone else. It's time to look in the mirror as well, and to find out whether you are the passenger or the driver of your career, because you do have agency. And that's what working on your legacy reminds you of, that you frigging have agency to do whatever you want to.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

And I think that's part of the self-work, right? It's figuring out how to reclaim your agency if you feel like you've lost it. And I think what I'm finding is that because of the lack of human, human kind of empathy that I'm seeing at every level across the globe at the minute. And I find I find it really challenging, right? So I'm I'm built at a bit of a a heightened scale around being an empath, around the things that I will cry when the news comes on, and I will cry at some of the things I'm seeing that's happening. Um, we're already on being censored around some things with some certain countries, with some certain leaders. So we'll save that for another day. Not because I'm not bold or courageous, but there's some things that could be covered.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Does not deserve any airtime here to do that.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

We don't need to name it, and uh it could compromise some things that would help me change the world. So you know, gotta work on a few things, but there's I don't know how we are turning away from some of those things in our workplaces as well. Like we have fundamentally things that are causing people harm.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

And I think what is happening with say the legacy or the self-work and the resistance around that, I'm seeing less of trauma. Right. Like so I'm seeing trauma in our workforces, yeah, in our among our employees that's not acknowledged, identified. We're not giving any space for support to resolve. Um, you know, there's post-traumatic stress essentially in some spaces, and then you've got this thing where all my workplace kind of caused this in some respects, and then I'm being left to feel like a criminal because now I'm navigating a workers' comp system. There's all of this complexity.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

It is unfortunate.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

And I think that's what's overwhelming for HR because we see all of it. We see the whole organization. A leader sees all of us more intimately with a team.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

Yes. And so I think it's a challenge.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

It's how do you help people to lead with heart when their hearts are broken?

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Indeed, indeed. And you know, when organizations, I guess you you've got to be is it going back to the PC stuff we were saying earlier, like how how involved do you want to get, how involved can you get as well? There's this um there's a new expectation of the workplace, I feel nowadays as well. Our psychological contract to the workplace has really shifted over, you know, the last five years. Um and we do expect more of work in understanding me as a human. And I'm really glad that you talk about society. So I've, you know, I've studied sociology and social psychology, so I always bring society into anything that I do. Because whoever you are within the workplace, you're someone outdoors as well there. Thank you very much. And one thing I completely agree with you, Trina, I'm coming across uh people who are dealing with, and it's it's a term that I've just recently learnt about the poly crisis, multiple crises, you know, that we're seeing, that we're dealing with, that we're watching on the news. I've stopped I stopped watching the news probably around 15, 16 years ago. I just read stuff now because it just got too much. Um but when your people are dealing with poly crises out there, you know, in the world, and they're acting shitty within the workplace. Hello, I wonder why that is. So, yes, that there has to be some kind of boundary between work and life, but then no as well. I feel like we need some kind of new work life integration, that humanity, you know, the way that you're talking about a new way of working as well, is what we really need.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

And I think most executives would flip the table on the even remote thought that we need to bring more of our people to. Oh no, right. And so, you know, we've tried to put these boundaries, and I get it, right? Because that there I get it in terms of having boundaries aware around where our responsibilities stop and start. Correct. But it is fluid. We bring our home to work, we take our work home, and either way, it's gonna ruin one part of our life if we can't get some kind of balance or coping mechanisms in place for when the balance is not tipped in the favour that we need. Like, and I could I could always go through very, very, very intense emotionally and physically in terms of work stuff. I could I could do it unrelentingly for a long period of time when I knew that I had a month off to go abroad and refuel like the carrot kind of thing, right? I feel like people aren't getting off the hamster wheel.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

And we're not refueling, we're not re-energizing, we're not refilling the cup, whatever your language is, you know. And I got challenged around being woo-woo when I used the term fill your cup last week. Okay. Now that's one person, right? So let's not exaggerate. However, I found that really interesting that just a concept around energy is finite, energy and time, so energy in and out, who's sucking your energy, emotional vampires in your workplace, who's who's refueling your energy, you know, both in people and processes, right? Yeah, yeah. And talking about that and having people go, it's just so woo-woo, like this fill-you cup stuff. Like, can we just get it? And it's like there's some self-work right there, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:06

Big time.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

We can't, you and I, consultants, change agents, supporters, enablers, empowers. We we can't fix that person. No, not at all. That's therapy. That's what a psychologist and self-reflection work needs to happen. And I don't even say that flippantly and critically.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

It's true.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

That is where we have some really fundamental things that are flowing into the workplace.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

And training programs aren't gonna fix that.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

That ain't gonna cut it. We're all so different, Trina. We all have such different needs, absolutely, and I'm so glad that you manage uh you mentioned energy as well. I've been called out on using the word energy as being woo-woo. But let's okay, let me give you an example. You walk into a room, someone's got their arm crossed, the rest of the room is really quiet. Can you sense the energy in the room? Yes, you freaking can. That's what energy is. Thank you very much. So it is not woo-woo, because then the other thing that happens as well is emotional contagion in a negative sense, which is really crap, yeah. We take on the negative of everyone else. So, yeah, we really do have to work on ourselves and for, yeah, then. But we need to be able to work.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

We need sorry to speak, we need to be able to call it out though, right? Yes, so we need to be able to call it out. So I was with a client and delivering a workshop with a leadership team last Thursday. Okay, and the CEO, um, also managing director, family run business. It's not a space I play in very often, um, but they really wanted uh help with things, and they're good people, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

So I gravitate to where the good people are and walking into that room, when they walked into the room, the whole leadership group, you felt the energy and the oxygen disappear from the room in an instant. The body language from the managing director was awful. Now I'd seen a couple of emails that morning. I knew he was turning up angry with someone else that was on the leadership team. But it's one of these things where me as an external consultant, there's a different way of being able to manage that situation, right? Correct. So I flipped the script in the room, had people work on some reflection stuff, and then it was like, hey mate, can we just go have a chat? I just want to talk about the next thing we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Good.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

And went outside and was like, what the hell, man? Like, what what? What? What is going on? You called it because there is there is no point us being here if you can't, like, I know that you're in a really tough spot. I know that your back's against the wall. If you can't be in the space that we need you to be in for this to kind of be able to look be future focused, there's no point us being here. Wasting money, wasting time, wasting energy. Because the energy in the room and the vibe in the room. It's not cool. It's not okay. But I'm worried about you. So what do you need? Can we do it? Or should we call it? Because I will help you call it.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

He's like, right. Okay, well. But I'm not being angry. I'm holding my stuff together. I'm like, talking doesn't it's body language.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

I said the words come out of your mouth are not even 30% of what people's communication is from you, so you don't need to say a word. And if you you know, and if you can't contribute to the conversation because you're trying to hold your anger for three hours, uh, there's no point. Yeah. So how can I help you? I love it. What do we do? And you know, I said, and he said, nah, we we need to do this. And in my mind, I'm like, yeah, we definitely need to have this session because we've got stuff that needs to happen. But at the same time, if it's not going to get the outcome and have the impact, it's not the right time. No. And this is a human bit in the middle. But it's not easy for a peer to do that though, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:59

It or is it or a subordinate? Or is it? Hey Trino, you don't seem like yourself today. Just a statement like that. Come on. You know, that inconsistency thing that you talked to earlier. And you know, when you were having that conversation, when you were explaining the way you spoke with um your client as well, HR people can completely have this kind of conversation. If you've got that relationship, if you've got that trust, if you do not have the fear aspect in your relationship, that's what a good HR practitioner should be doing as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah, I feel like this is where you know how we talked about the capability and the confidence and the clarity type stuff, all the C words, the good ones. Um, it's about being able to show up in that moment though, serving others. Yeah. And this is the bit that I feel like we've lost in the fear-based environment that we find ourselves is that when you're scared, you're less likely to show up in service of others. No, exactly. With the two because you're self-protecting.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

So if you're self-protecting, you're not giving. Right. And this is at its very core, like why fear and and trust being broken means that we can't then lean in to help other people because we need people to be helping us in those moments.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

And you know what? Sometimes we need to call it as well and say it. And that's okay, leaders. It's okay, HR people, to say, hey, I'm not doing well. I need help from you.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

You know, but we're terrible societally at asking for help, right?

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Full stop, full stop. Absolutely so. But we've seen also when people do ask for help, whether it be in the workplace or personally, how things really do change. That's the other thing. And I know, you know, the Western world is a very individualist kind of society. And you've worked in Eastern cultures as well, which are very community focused, that kind of thing. So it can be done. I come from you know an Indian culture which is very community focused. Um, how do we hold our hand up more to say, hey, I'm not well, I need help, is a question I would ask the audience who are listening. How can you do that for yourself? How can you, uh, Trina, I'd ask the audience as well, how can you respectfully call out the shitty behavior yourselves as well? Whether you are, you know, the cleaner, whether you're a graduate, whether you're a junior, whatever, or whether you're the CEO. Either way, how can you have that tough conversation in your own beautiful manner? We're all very different. If you do it in your own style, then of course that's gonna land so much better than Trina's way or Prina's way. Um those are the big questions I want to ask people. Like, what is holding you back from a fear perspective, really, as well, people? I want to ask you, what is that fear? Get to the root cause of it.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

And I think I think even though we've talked about the fact that we feel like we're missing humanity in our workplaces, it's also what's gonna save it, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

So I know, yeah. Yeah, I know in my heart of hearts and in the people I work with, the spaces that I occupy, that there are incredible people that care. And so HR has the power and the responsibility to redefine leadership. And I think courage for HR is is staying human in spaces that ask us to be neutral.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

So for us to stay human, that's the role modeling that's going to help others that might be listening to be like, well, how do I stay true to myself in these moments? Because that's not me.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Okay. Can I jump onto that beautiful statement? Stay human in spaces that ask us to be neutral HR people. I think HR people don't give themselves enough credit often, and they don't develop themselves often as well, because they're in their frigging echo chamber and they're busy, they're stressed out, they're overwhelmed. I've been there and I've done that myself. But once you start developing yourself in the new world of work and, you know, new theories, new practices, hello. You're not only developing yourself, but you're it's that pass it on mentality. You're going to give back to your organization, to your people, to the organizational culture. And what a beautiful ripple effect are you leaving then after you've learned new things. So, Trina, question for you. I don't know if you come across, I mean, you work with brilliant HR teams who obviously want to learn, but I know there's many HR teams whose doors are completely closed because they know the best, you know? They're the ones who especially are working in the fear, like uh fear aspect. And I think leaders as well, whose cops are full, you know. Yeah. Let's let's take your language. If your cup is full, ain't nothing else gonna fill it if you think it's so full. You know, we can really learn from others and we can learn from our own frigging mistakes as well, but we just have to admit them.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Yeah, I agree. And I think I think the key thing as well that I would leave kind of HRN leaders to think about is that you know, the future of work is not defined by technology, right? No, it's gonna be defined by how much heart we bring to leadership, and it's the heart work that I'm doing through my coaching and through the speaking that I'm doing that's really starting to shift this. Like it's the model, you know, that is, and you know, there's a similar theme, I guess, because our work, we you know, we're both smart people that kind of know how some of these things fit together, but you know, it is about the head, the heart, and for me, the hands, like around, you know, like how you fit how you fit that together in a way that you can then execute so it takes the woo-woo because I'm pragmatic, right? So I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go woo-woo on you, but then I'm gonna be the you know, show you how looking at I'll show you how because we need the intuitiveness, we need the confidence. But I really think that we know, and you know, courage doesn't come from workshop, right? No, it comes from choosing trust and over fear, basically, over and over again. Yeah. And I would really encourage, you know, listeners to your point, think about their legacy, to think about how we're gonna reduce fear and how we take more heart action. What are you gonna do this week?

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Simple. Beautiful. Let's do it. Let's do it, let's do it. Yes. If you like this episode, check out the show notes and sign up for my newsletter. That will help your workplace to be less shitty. It's full of novel ideas, good food for thought. And if you like this episode, pass it on to at least two people who will benefit. That's your good deed done for the day. Also, remember to subscribe to the Ways to Change Your Workplace Podcast via your podcast provider. And I will see you in the next episode.