159. Why We Resist Change (and What Leaders Can Do About It) with Dr Vish Ramakonar

SPEAKER_00 0:03

This podcast is for people who know that the workplace can and should be better and are ready to do something about it. You will learn practical ways to change organizational cultures and human behaviour without buzzwords, without box ticking, without performative leadership. I am the boss of Prena Shark Consulting, working with executives, leaders and teams to create work cultures and environments that actually work for people. I am Prina Shah. I specialise in organizational culture change and human behaviour change. I am all about making work better with people who give a damn. So if you think I can help, contact me via LinkedIn. I am here to help you to find decent ways to change the workplace. Let's do this. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with myself, your host, Prina Shah. And I'm really, really excited to introduce to you someone who I admire greatly, greatly. Who is Dr. Vish Ramangonner? Hello Vish, how are you? Hello, Prina, how are you? I'm thanks so much for having me. Vish, I usually do an intro to my um guests. I'm gonna do a personal intro, but then I'd love to ask you to introduce what you do, right? So I've known Vish for a good few years now. And when I was first presenting, one of my first uh public presentations I did uh for a local council and it was on mental health, and there was this beautiful face in the crowd staring at me, and this face I did not know too well at all at that time, and it turned out to be Vish, who has just been like a cheerleader for me in my work, and we've become friends since we've got to know each other. Uh Vish works on all sorts of stuff, so from engineering through to change management through to working on us and helping us with our brains and our thinking processes and everything in between. So I'm really pleased to bringing to be bringing Vish to the Waste to Change Your Workplace podcast for you today. Because we're going to be talking about why we resist change and what leaders can do about it. But before we even launch into the topic, Vish, you do loads of stuff. Can you tell us what in your own words, what do you do? And why do you do it?

SPEAKER_01 2:23

What do I do? Well, in a nutshell, uh my vision is to see a future of thriving organizations. So every everything I do, and I I think in my life it's everything that I have done has been a step stepping stone towards, I guess, this this particular vision, which at the time I didn't know it. Yeah. So uh yeah, I have a background um, like you said, engineering, uh, but I was in IT for many years. So I start I was working on IT projects and I've taken on various roles from test manager to business analyst to project manager, and um that like for over 20 years I've I I was in that space. Um, but then I was approached by somebody to um deliver Print 2 training, which is like a project management certification program. So with my knowledge about project management in an IT, I I actually have been training people, you know, when we put in a new system and things like that. And I really did enjoy the teaching part of things. Yeah. So this was something that um appealed to me. So I kind of like went down that path. And I've been providing corporate training, uh, specifically these kind of certification courses, like in change management and project management and agile and those types of things. But I think you know my story, but I kind of like had uh you know life challenges, and when those life challenges challenges come along, you kind of want to look for ways to navigate those challenges, so to build more resilience and things like that. And that brought me to the work of um Dr. Joe Dispenser. Yes. And I sort of uh saw an interview with him, and it made a lot of sense to my analytical mind, um, with with my engineering background about why we do certain things, the brain waves and the subconscious mind and all of that. Yeah. So that um led me to what I do, what what my passion is, which is delivering um these programs that he created called The Change of Mind Create New Results program, which is based on neuroscience um and helps with organizations whenever they are going through, you know, anything like an organizational change or if it's about sort of trying to minimize psychosocial safety risks. It's it's basically tools to help people navigate challenging situations with a neuroscience lens to improve resilience, um, well-being, but also to be in an optimal brainwave state to help them solve problems, be more innovative, communicate better, work better in teams. So it yeah, that that's where my passion is now. But I also lecture ECU as well. So teaching is my passion. Yes. I love teaching, so I teach any everything from um MBA units like HR, change management, project management, and all of those things. So teaching is my passion for sure. And I try to also weave in these parts um to do with neuroscience because it's very relevant to those things to help people, I guess you could say, succeed in what they want to do.

unknown 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

So sorry for that very long winded explanation.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

It's all interlinked. It's all interlinked, isn't it? And I love the fact that you've got that operational background to now come in and, you know, um educate people with the extra information that you have as well. I love the fact that you talked about the fact that you've got the analytical mind, and then you brought that to Dr. Joe Dispenser's work, right? Um, because a lot of people, I'm sure, who will be listening to this podcast will say, okay, well, you're talking about blah, blah, but give me some more facts, give me some more data. So you are the perfect person to be talking about why we resist change, Bish, and what leaders can do about it. So, my first question to you is why do people resist change at work? And when people resist change at work, what do you think they're actually responding to? What's happening?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, so why do people resist change? That's a that's a great thing. Biggie. And I and I think it it it's because we're wired that way, yeah. Um I guess in the past, change can be perceived as a threat, yeah, a threat to threat to survival. So in our in in ancient times, whenever we perceived a threat, yeah, um, you know, we turn on that flight or flight response from our autonomic nervous system, and you know, the pupils dilate, the heart, the respiratory rate increases, heart rate increases, yeah, blood sent to the extremities, and we're ready to, you know, to run, fight, or hide. But in this day and age, um, you know, it was very adaptive because back in the day, people could uh we would once the predator is gone, yeah, you your body returns back to homeostasis. But unfortunately, in this modern day, we are faced with many, many, you could say, predators, but in in the form of challenges, challenging situations. And we turn on this fight or flight response, and when you can't turn it off, then it becomes an issue because no organism was built to live in emergency mode for extended periods of time. So our brain is a reflection of our environment. So everything we've learned and experienced up until this point is stored up here in this part of the brain, which looks like the walnut, the neocortex. Okay. And we have a neurological network for everything that every person, every object, everything at every place and every time that we've experienced, um, it's stored up here as a neurological network. And because we've experienced that person or interaction, we also have an associated emotion. Yes. Linked to that. Yeah. And so whenever we think about you know, a situation or a person or an object, um we will feel a certain way. So for example, we might when we think about this uh a change in organization, we might, if change has not been if if you had a bad experience with change in the past, yeah, you're going when you think about a change, you're going to feel a negative emotion. We go back there. You're going to feel fear. And um, you know, there's a there's a law in neuroscience that it's called Hebian law, which says that nerve cells that fire together wire together. So the more I mean, I will ask you, what do you think that means?

SPEAKER_00 9:14

The nerve cells that fire together wire together. So is that a case of misery loves company?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah, so if you keep thinking in the same way over and over again, yeah, you're basically gonna hardwire yourself into almost like a hard like a program, a computer program, which fire which fires automatically. And um and then we sort of react on on a on an like an automatic basis. Yeah. So 95% of who we are by the time we're 35 years old is a set of you know, memorized emotions, unconscious, yes, you know, habits, yeah, um, hardwired attitudes and beliefs that function just like a yeah, function just like a computer program.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Oh my gosh. All right, I've got a load of extra questions. I've been taking lots of notes when you were talking. So you said change, usually, you know, back in the day it was a threat to our survival, okay? So absolutely so. Whereas now, Vish, you know, within the workplace or just within society itself as well, change is just constant. It's not like ah, saber tooth tiger, and then you know, it moves on and we deal with it. Change is as just such a rapid and constant pace now as well. Do you see that having an impact on us and you know, this resistance to change aspect as well?

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yeah, so because I was just telling 95% of who we are is a subconscious program. So this part of our brain called the neocortex, um, when we like I said, when we think about something over and over again, um, and in a in a workplace situation, let's say for example, um I was using a particular uh computer application for many, many years, right? Yeah, okay. As I keep using this computer application over and over and over again, this part of the brain, I'm getting an experience of what that feels like for me. I engage this part of my brain called the limbic brain. And over a time, it will become a hybrid wide program in me and be stored in the in this part of the brain called the cerebellum. So the cerebellum you could say is like the microprocessor of our brain where all the automatic habits and things like that are store are stored. So, for example, if I asked you, Preena, you know, which way do you turn a doorknob? Yeah. So you used your hand though, didn't you? I did, yeah. Yeah. So we what we uh discovered is you actually a lot of these things are unconscious programs, like your body knew better. I responded to unconscious mind. Yeah. So when you're using your application so many times, you know where to click, you knew the you're not thinking about it. It's taking less brain power to do that. Right. Yeah, yeah. So the moment you ask me to change and do something differently, I need to wake up, I need to pay attention, it's going to take energy, it's going to take effort. This is why we also resist change because we need we then go through that, you know, the learning dip um, or where we where we're unconscious, you know, the un the conf unconscious incompetence, and then we become consciously incompetent, and then we become conscious competent. Yeah. And then we until we become unconscious competent. So basically, we're the brain helps us to move to that spot. It's like riding a bike, it's like driving a car. Many times you've driven a car, yeah. You probably have not even paid attention to how you like suddenly you're at home, you've not paid attention to how you got there because we're on autopilot most of the time.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

That's so true. Oh my gosh. And we've like your work. Yeah. So, okay, now, okay, I've got some clients who are doing massive technology changes, you know, like huge system changes. There's like happening from the people, they're saying, What the hell? And I'm just thinking from a change management perspective, and this is your forte as well. Uh okay, I'm gonna give a bit of judgment, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. I feel that organizations don't place enough emphasis on yes, we're doing this change, we're gonna train you on the change, and then it's like a done and dusted kind of program, usually. I feel there's not enough of a period afterwards to hold people's hands to actually help to embed that change into people's brains and into our organizational cultures as well. It feels like organizations, because of the pace of change that's happening, it's just like onto one thing, onto another, onto another. There's not that um I you use the word uh homeostasis, right? There's I I don't know if I'm just completely ruining what you've said. There's not a chance for us to get to the homeostasis stage before we move on to the next change within the workplace, generally speaking. What are your thoughts on that, Bish?

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yeah, I think you're I think you're right, Prino. I mean, change is happening so rapidly around us all the time, and we're constantly having to adapt and adjust to all of this. And so our nervous system is constantly on, you know, under under duress.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

And um, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the bridges model of transition um in change management. We talk about that, where where he talked about human beings, um, there's two aspects to change. One is the external change that's happening, you know, the new system, the new process, or the merge, the merger, the restructuring, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

But then there's also an internal process that each individual needs to go through, which which is like the psychological, he calls it transition. Yeah. And very often we're we're focused on the external part of that change and not realizing there's an internal shift that needs to happen within each individual. And he talks about that, they'll go through these three phases, which is endings, which is letting go of the old ways of being. Then they go through this neutral zone where there is like an in-between, uncomfortable time where the old ways are no longer valid, but they've not really sunk into those new ways. And that might be where what you're saying, where people are sort of left at that stage. Yeah. But he says eventually we need to take them into the new beginnings where they are now wanting to, you know, that there are you need to give them a picture, he says, give them a picture, a purpose, a part to play, and a plan. Uh so that they're able to now see where do they fit in this new change. And so they can actually start to engage this part of the brain. So if you're just telling them theoretically what to do, they're only engaging this part of the brain, which is a neocortex. Everything's theoretical.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

When they start to apply it and they start to personalize it for themselves, and they start to engage the limbic brain. But if you want it to actually be really embedded, they need to keep doing that over and over again and really um personalize it for themselves till it becomes part of their cerebellum. Okay. And then it they'll be comfortable. They that then they'll actually be um doing those things in a more automatic way without having to consciously think about it. And you know, you've heard about the learning anxiety and the survival anxiety. So we need to be able to create that psychological safety for them to be able to make mistakes and to and to and to try again and and just you know, keep through repetition, the brain will eventually um be able to. I mean, we've all done it, like driving a car, whatever it is. The more that we are given the time to be able to do that, the more that we'll be able to um become more comfortable and it becomes more pragmatic.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Yeah. Cool, amazing. Okay, that's super practical. Another thing you said as well, you're you're giving so many golden nuggets as well already. The brain is a reflection of our environment, okay? And we associate emotions linked to people as well. Now, leaders, leaders, let us talk to you. So I talk at length, Vish, about the fact that you have positional power as a leader. And you know, so many people have written books about trust and all of the good stuff. Um, and the fact that we have memories like elephants. So, Vish, if you have done wrong by me in my perception in the past, and now you are imposing this change upon me, I am still gonna brush you, you know, with that old paintbrush off that bad reputation that I had off you. Um, what can leaders do to navigate this as well, you know, because leadership is a really hard gig. Leadership landscape is completely changing as well. And the fact that you have to have these healthy relationships, trusted relationships as well, and the fact that you've been given remits of change, which are constant remits often within the workplace as well, it's a heavy load for leaders. Do you have any advice or tips for leaders in terms of that trust and that that aspect?

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Yeah. So there's a psychologist, um, Carl Rogers, um, and he and we talk about this in change management theory as well, where he he was studying why um he actually looked at at therapists, the relationship between therapists and their patients, and and was wondering why is it that some um clients make a lot of change and are able to, you know, shift their behaviors. Yeah. Um, and he said it was nothing to do with the therapist in terms of like the way that they were delivering the therapy. It was more about the relationship that they built with the with the patient, which is which um, and there were three core conditions that he said um needed to be there in that relationship building awareness to build that that psychological safety. So what the first is um to do with integrity or authenticity. So basically, leaders walking the talk, walking the walk, having that self-awareness. Um he also mentioned about or they mentioned about the fact that when leaders are not authentic about their feelings, um, people perceive that as a threat. Yeah. Because then they they they feel like they can't trust. Yeah. So um that's the first core condition. He said that if for leaders to be able to affect change in people, they need to embody authenticity and integrity. So whatever they say, they need to walk the talk, they need to be aware of their own feelings and their emotions and be able to um be honest, you know, about those things. Yeah. Um, the second thing is unconditional positive regard or respect, which basically means you accept people for how they are, yeah, not how you want them to be. Yeah. Um, and so when people feel that they are accepted, they will feel they that you're building that trust with them. They don't feel they need to be a certain way before they are accepted. So this gives people the permission to be able to um sh to make mistakes while they're learning, because change is a learning process, right? They're going to be learning new things, doing so it gives them that safety to be able to make mistakes and things like that and and learn from it. And then the third core condition was empathy. Okay. Um, so being able to understand people's points of view, seeing another person's point of view, putting yourself in their shoes. When people feel again that they have been heard and that they've been seen again, they're that builds that trust and psychological safety.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

And then they feel safe enough to engage with with the change. So these are three things that he talks about leaders, um, ultimately, if they can uh sort of cultivate these three core conditions, it's going to be very positive.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

It's it's a beautiful um blueprint, I guess, or a framework for any kind of relationship, isn't it? Act with integrity and authenticity, have that self-awareness, have unconditional positive regard for others. So meet them where they're at rather than where you think they should be at. This is a huge one. Leaders, this is a huge one. So meet your people where they're at rather than where you expect them to be at. I've been there and done that myself, and I've learned the hard way. Empathy, understanding other people's views as well, and just applying all of that. What a beautiful model then to apply. And this takes time to build relationships in such a manner as well. But it can be done. So if I've got a bad relationship with you, let's say, we can still fix this. We've still got time, haven't we? It can be done. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

And it all it means is yeah, ex changing that the neural network in our brains to to a different feeling. And um, because our the great thing is nerve cells that fire together wire together, but nerve cells that no longer fire together will no longer wire together, the brain has neuroplasticity. Can be changed. So we can change those neural networks, and that's how we change our behaviors. That's how we change our identity. We can change our personality.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

So leaders can can do it. And when once they know the mechanism of what's happening in their brain and body, it it just makes gives everything more meaning and makes it more tangible for them.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Totally. And I love the way that you articulate all of this because it just shows me and all of our listeners that we have agency. You know, even if you're feeling in a funk, that's okay. That's where you are today. Tomorrow's going to be different, and you can get yourself out of this funk. And you, we all have agency to take on all of this work, which is super practical that you're sharing as well. So thank you. Um Are there any other reasons why people resist change within the workplace in your perspective, ish from what you've seen over your brilliant experiences?

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah, and generally, I mean, for me in the past, it's been, you know, you're already overworked. You've your workload is already full on. Yeah. You're just trying to do what you need to do on a daily basis. And then on top of that, there's something that needs to change. And that, like I said, takes a when you've got a full plate, and that has happened to me in the past, um, you don't it it's harder for you to have capacity to do something new. Like we we kind of filter out what's important, um, what's the must-haves and should haves and could haves in our day. And um, we kind of if we f if we see something new that we need to do, which is going to take more effort and more time. And when and when you're already probably tired, if you're close to burnout, yeah, um, it just becomes harder and harder to to embrace that change. Yeah. So the only way to um sort of move through that is to regulate the nervous system and to and to manage that um stress response um through, for example, techniques that I that I teach our one is to create heart uh what we we call heart coherence. It's a heart math technique that the US Navy SEALs and the military and first responders all use because obviously obviously they have to go into very stressful situations and be able to think clearly and make clear decisions um and manage and self-regulate. So having um those types of tools that you can use on a daily basis will help you to uh navigate that overwhelm. Um and I've uh again, I've done it on myself. Like last year was was a very full year, and um the workload was is very was quite a lot, and I was um using these tools to help me because you can do them in the moment, like I'll do it while I'm driving between meetings or going to my thing, and you can do it even while you're in a meeting, we are having a like when you keep practicing it, you're able to do it um in the moment. And it um the more that you practice it, the more the easier it gets to remain in that um what they call coherent state. So you're less reactive to things. Your brain is um because when you uh have switched on that fight or flight nervous response, your brain brain waves, the heart starts to beat in a very erratic way. And what happens is uh research has shown that the heart sends more signals to the brain than the other way around. So when an erratic signal is going from the heart to the brain, the brain starts to to sort of fire very erratically or what we call incoherently. And um, what happens is we our brainwaves move shoot up into this state called high beta brainwave states, and it looks like a lightning storm in the clouds. So you're okay, you've got all these different neural networks firing off at the same time. So your attention's going from this person to this place to this problem to this meeting, and it's like a lightning storm in the clouds. And if you try to sort of make a decision from that from that state of being, yeah, it's never going to go well. So we teach people how you know how to re self-regulate, bring this the slow the brain waves down so that you're able to um, you know, uh navigate, make better decisions, be able to communicate better. Because when you're in survival, it's not a time to communicate, it's not a time to self-reflect, it's not uh it's a time to you know run far to hide. And that overwhelm, we've all had it. When you're feeling that overwhelm, every it even just a small thing can just make you go into that panic mode or and like anxiety. So um in that state, it's really, really difficult to sort of um be able to function or perform at your best, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Yeah, and this and another super practical example from you again. So you said that this is sorry, heart-focused breathing. Heart-focused breathing. And you said that you can do this, you know, just even within five minutes, or you can just remember it during a meeting and you can bring yourself back. So is it similar to the kind of effects that meditation has on people?

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Yeah, so uh the the mi the Mayo Clinic, yeah, they often do it in their meetings just before they start their meetings, and they found that they their meetings finish before time and they get the outcome that they want. Everyone comes out feeling like they're that with they're happy with the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

What the hell? So trying on tested, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So they've they've there's some papers written. Heart-focused breathing, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah. So um you you might have heard in the podcast that I did with the double D's that I sort of demonstrated it there. So it's more of I'm sure a lot of people have heard about breathing techniques. Um, but this one in particular is focused on imagining the heart is the breath is moving in and out from the heart, the physical heart, or it could be the center of the chest, just in the area of the heart. Okay. Um, and what the the premise of that is it's the basis of biofeedback where where you know where you place your attention, that that part of the body starts to respond.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

So when um you take really deep, slow breaths in and out from that center of your chest or in the area of the heart, the heart starts to be in a more orderly or um what they call coherent way. Uh-huh. And what they found was if you can you can amplify that level of what they call coherence by bringing up what they uh what they call an elevated emotion or like a positive emotion like gratitude, appreciation, care, all of those things they've found amplifies the level of coherence in the heart. And that means a coherent signal is going to the brain, and that means your brain is going to work more effectively. They call it cortical facilitation, and so the brain starts to work. That's this is why the US Navy SEALs, Olympia, Olympic athletes all use these techniques because they know they know this secret to being able to perform at their best. Um, so yeah. Uh very cool. You can find more information on the Heart Math Institute um website. But um, this is they're one of the tools that we teach um in the Change of Mind Creating Your Results program. And there's also the opportunity for people who have come for that program 30 days later, they can dive deeper just into those techniques as a separate course on that. So people.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Super practical, thank you. Because a lot of people think that this kind of stuff is woo-woo, but it's really not, you know. So you're bringing the practical element to it. Um, I've got another question for you. What do leaders underestimate most about the human side of change, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 29:57

So, as I think you touched upon it before, where we often think about the external part of change, which is focusing on, like I said, the new process or system or new legislation or whatever's happening externally. Yes. Um, could be even a new move to a new prem to new premises. Yes. But often we're not thinking about what's going on internally with each individual, because we're not going to move through change. You might have heard about the change curve where people, you know, go through the shock and denial and all of those things until they move into acceptance and problem solving. And we don't move through it like synchronized swimmers. So everyone's going to move through it at different pa at a different pace, right? Leaders will probably be further along because they probably have known about the change um probably longer. Yeah. Whereas those that have who have just heard it are going to be right at the beginning of this change curve. So, how do we help? So I think leaders need to understand that people will be moving through this and internalizing the change in their own way. And a lot of people, yeah, it could be just even a simple thing. For example, like we were talking about earlier, ECU uh School of Business and Law has moved to and um the city campus, right? And I as a sessional lecturer, like I know overall what's happening in this change, but what does it mean for me specifically as Vish, the sessional lecturer who's teaching these particular units? That uncertainty can be considered almost like a threat response. So it's the fear, the fear starts to come up because people don't know what it means for me personally. Yeah. Um, so leaders can understand that, and often when we communicate, we say, the leaders will often provide the one-way communication like a time or like a big, big um announcement. But it's very helpful to follow that up with a two-way conversation with your immediate manager um to have to work out okay, what does this exactly mean for me? And having communication in different both one way but also two-way, but also different um channels. Yeah. Uh like for example, we have an intranet where we can go where I can go and pull information with to find out more about what the spaces are gonna look like. Yes. Um, so having those types of things in place, um, if leaders can understand that, um, that's gonna be very helpful as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Cool, very, very good. Um is there anything else that leaders can do differently that would immediately reduce resistance, Fish?

SPEAKER_01 32:40

I think what I talked about, Rogers, yeah, uh, what are those three core conditions? Okay. If they can focus on those three core conditions, um, they because that that's in their control, right? How they how they behave, uh, their integrity, their congruence, their unconditional positive regard. So taking a look at themselves and asking themselves, you know, am I f uh am I emulating these core conditions? And if you're not, that's completely fine. But it's just good to be aware and what can I do to change it, and also know as a leader, if you're not embodying those things, you're also going to be going through that neurological biological change within yourself. And it's going to, and I forgot to mention to you, whenever we have a thought, our body makes a chemical that makes us feel the way that we're thinking, right? So if over time, if I've constantly been um feeling frustrated, yeah, um, I'm my body's making chemicals of frustration.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

And the moment I decide to change myself to say, if I imagine, imagine I say to you, Prina, no, tomorrow I'm not gonna complain anymore. I'm not gonna, I don't want to be this person anymore. I want to feel more grateful in my life, right? Yeah, I'm no longer firing and wiring those neural networks that have been basically become automatic programs. Yeah. I'm no longer creating those chemicals in my body. Okay. What do you think is gonna happen? What what how is our body gonna respond to that? Do you think? It will be surprised, it won't know what to do initially. Correct. It's going to feel it's gonna feel scared, it's gonna feel afraid, it's going to feel yeah, un it's gonna feel uncomfortable. Yeah. And guess what most people will do at this point? Go back to old ways. Because it's familiar. It feels comfortable, yeah. So when people don't understand that, okay, they'll say, I'm going back to this way because that feels right.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Yeah, that's familiar.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

But actually, it just feels familiar. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

So that uncomfortable period in between, sit in it, be okay with it, and we will rewire. I love that. Um, Vish, you've reminded me of a really important poem that I have on my wall. What's your thoughts, they become your words. Uh, what's your words, they become your actions. What's your actions, they become your habits. What's your habits? They become your character. What's your character? It becomes your destiny by Lao Tzu. Uh oh my gosh. They're so that yeah. Yeah. Um exactly right. Bish, have we missed anything before we start to wrap up? In terms of why we resist change and what leaders can do about it.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

One other thing, one of the other models that we talk about, uh, and you reminded me when you when you talked to when you recited that poem. Um some researchers said that I mean, I'll first of all ask you this question. Do you think your thoughts have an effect on your life?

SPEAKER_00 35:37

100% for me, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah, okay. So would it surprise you to know that human beings can have 60 to 70,000 thoughts a day? Right? Wow. Okay. And 90% of those thoughts are the same as the day before. Yeah. So is it an is it wonder any wonder that nothing really changes? Because you know, we with the model that we teach is that the same thoughts would lead to the same choices. Yeah. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

And then the same choices would lead to the same behaviors. The same behaviors are going to lead to the same experiences. Yes. And the end product of an experience is an emotion. We end up feeling the same way. And that influences the same thoughts. Yeah. And then we just keep getting stuck in this cycle. So the moment you decide you're going to make a different choice, so we can actually change, but you have to have a different thought and make a different choice. Yeah. That's that's where the rubber meets the road. Because if you can start to do that, you're going to start to see change.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

But very often we don't do that. So stick with it and be okay with that uncomfortableness or just not knowing where you're going. Um, which I'd like to really summarize. We've covered so much. We've talked about change and why people resist it. It's a general threat to our survival. Um, change is constant. Now, within the workplaces, we've also indicated. I love the fact that you said that our brain and what we think is a reflection of our environment. And we associate emotions to people. Therefore, the bridges model is really, really important. And the bridges, no, sorry, Carl Rogers' model also is really important. Carl Rogers' is our talk to the three steps that you talk to integrity and authenticity. So I have that self-awareness to act with integrity and authenticity. Um, unconditional positive regard. So accepting people where they're at, not how they should be. And I think apply unconditional positive regard to yourself as well. That's a biggie, and that's a hard one also for many people. Um, being empathetic to other people's views and then to yourself as well. But really, a lot of this comes to relationships and the way that you build relationships with your people, and then how that change unfolds over time as well. We've talked about the fact that the workplace needs to give a little bit more time, if they can afford it, to actually help to embed that change and to help people. And the fact that we all should really remember we all respond to change so differently that even if you do have that one corporate message, leaders, share it. Absolutely. That's your job to share that corporate message. But then have a chat with your people and say, well, how did this land with you? What are you feeling? What do you reckon about this? That one-to-one is just going to be far more richer than your generic blah blah blah. This is happening and over and out. Vish, I cannot thank you enough. This was so, so useful and practical. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me, Prina. We'd love to be chatting with you today. If you like this episode, check out the show notes and sign up for my newsletter. That will help your workplace to be less shitty. It's full of novel ideas, good food for thought. And if you like this episode, pass it on to at least two people who will benefit. That's your good deed done for the day. Also, remember to subscribe to the Ways to Change Your Workplace Podcast via your podcast provider. And I will see you in the next episode.