168. Rethinking Change: Leadership, Trust & the Reality of Constant Transformation with Doug Wolfson and Janine Ellison

SPEAKER_01 0:03

This podcast is for people who know that the workplace can and should be better and are ready to do something about it. You learn practical ways to change organizational cultures and human behavior without passwords, without box ticking, without performative leadership. I am the boss of Prina Shark Consulting, working with executives, leaders, and teams to create work cultures and environments that actually work for people. I am Freenoshark. I specialise in organizational culture change and human behavior change. I am all about making work better with people who give a damn. So if you think I can help, contact me via LinkedIn. I am here to help you to find decent ways to change the workplace. Let's do this.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with myself, your host, Prina Sha. And I'm very excited to bring to you today some people who are in the elite spectrum of all things change management. Doug Wolfson, all the way from Sydney, and Janine Ellison, all the way from Sydney as well, who are both the founders of Rethink Change, which is a conference, it's a community, it's something else. Welcome. How are you both? Very well. Thanks, Prina. Doug, it is great to have you on today as well. Now, first and foremost, Doug, before you joined, Janine and I had a little chatter about all things Rethink Change. And I just want to know, so um, both of you have created this conference event series. Um, where did this idea come from?

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Um so, like many things in life, it just happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

It just happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yeah, it just happened. This probably started off as a a passion project that went through some ups and downs. Yeah. And we're five years into it, and now it's um a call it a business or a side hustle.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Um, but it's something more sustainable. Like you said, that we have built a little bit of a community and a reputation for delivering some learning type events and networking.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

And we're still going.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

Amazing. Amazing. How did this come about? Or what what was the seed? What made you do this?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

So the seed will go back and forth. Janine will have a view on this as well. But this was uh we first started the concept or the idea right around the time of COVID. So turning dialing it back to the times when we were running out of toilet paper and uh we were worried about everything that didn't know was happening at the time. After the one of the first lockdowns, Janine and I, who had worked together, have known each other for a number of years, were met meeting for a social drink in the in the CBD of Sydney. And after a few drinks, we said, this is fantastic to get back together. This is a time, you know, when people have been working in isolation to some degree. Yeah. And we we hatched an idea that we would try to bring a number of people together with some kind of function. And we, I think we initially called it a forum, and we would tap a number of our our friends or colleagues on the shoulders to say, you know, would you speak, you know, and just have a session where we get people together. I don't know if we thought it would be a full day or a half day, but that was the initial conversation. But we then did, we invested our time and money into booking. We've never done anything like this, of a of an actual, I think we called it a change forum to happen in about three months' time. And we started to get these six people on board to have a full-day event. And what happened, I think soon after, correct me if I'm wrong, Janine, but we actually advertised for the event, and then there was another shutdown. And so we, you know, when people weren't meant to be back in businesses, so we actually had had initiated this thing. We had actually started, uh I think we sold even a few tickets at that point. Is that right, Janine?

SPEAKER_04 4:18

Yeah, yeah. We spent a lot of time negotiating with the venue. Oh, the stop starts.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah. Yeah. And and during that time, it just got postponed quite a few times before we had our first event.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Oh, and and gosh, five, six years down the line. Janine, what was the impetus for you? Why why did you need to create this community? Why did you need to partner with Doug to do this? Over the drink, what happened there?

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Yeah, and she stuck through in a few of the themes. Um, so yes, there was a glass of male. I think um there were there was some real defining moments for me. The one is I am an extrovert, I get my energy from people, and I was really feeling the isolation of not connecting. And it's an amazing community who are so generous in sharing and experiences, but also playing with ideas on how we can navigate through some of the change challenges. And I was really feeling that. So the the reconnect, and actually, if you remember, the first conference was called Rethink and Reconnect. So the reconnect was all of us going, oh, we just need some human contact, you know, let go of the poor dog. And then the the rethink was it was becoming at that point really obvious that everything was changing. And the challenge of how do we implement something that had always been done face to face, very little digital engagement, etc. How were we going to deliver these changes with the same outcomes, level of community and connection in this hybrid environment?

SPEAKER_03 6:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

And uh so that was the rethink. The rethink was all about wow, we've moved hybrid, the world has shifted.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:12

And you know, Doug and I spent a lot of time over our second or third glass of wine saying, and we suspect we're not gonna go back. So that was becoming, you know, a little bit more apparent. And then the reconnect is just bringing community back together. And that thread has continued, as you say.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Hasn't it just? You know, as someone who's experienced the the uh conference itself, so um I applied to speak at the conference last year as a keynote, and you said no, do a masterclass, a three-hour masterclass instead. So that was just beautiful, and the people who attend the conference are just passionate change leaders or you know, involved in change in some way or another, and just the breakout conversations and lunches, and you know, you you host this beautiful dinner for all of the presenters the night before as well. The way you enable us, you create these experiences to enable us to really get to know each other to continue the conversation afterwards as well. So it's not just a set and forget, let's go there, learn this. I've made friends that I'm still in touch with, you know, WhatsApp groups and whatnot now. So thank you. That is something else to have an event experience which is just brilliant, but then continues on afterwards. That is something else.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah, no, thank you, Frenet. That it's it's uh really yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

That's the truth. That's the truth. So while we're talking about rethink change, so obviously we needed to rethink change, you know, in the times of the pandemic, we needed to reconnect. You've been continuing on with the brand of rethink change, which I think which I think is really uh needed, um, and very much marries with you know ways to change your workplace, which is what this podcast is called. So, in today's time, why do we need to rethink change in your opinions? Doug, do you want to jump in? Well, I'll give you a bit of a caveat as well. So, Janine, I know that you work internally within a traditional job job. And Doug, you have your own business. So you'll be coming with different lenses, I imagine, as well. Janine, your thoughts as an internal person. Why do we need to rethink change?

SPEAKER_04 8:22

Um because I think the environment is constantly changing. And the one of the things that we spent a bit of time doing this year is we did a whole lot of analysis of based on feedback we've received from our participants and our presenters. So we almost had over a thousand data points. And what we've identified is each year there's been different themes or trends that have been prevalent. And the the most interesting data point is actually the submissions we received. So in the early days, it was absolutely hybrid COVID. Then we moved to psychological safety, so there was a real predominance of that. Okay, then we moved into psychosocial, uh-huh, and of course, AI started feeding in. And last year there was a lot of AI. What we've seen this year, which is fascinating, and while we almost could have filled four masterclasses and 20 presenters with it, is the constant volume of change. Yes. And how in organizations can we support our people to navigate through this relentless volume? And what does it mean to our leaders? What does it mean to how we execute and embed? So I so I suppose that's the long answer, Prina, to your question of um there is always something to rethink.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

Oh, continually. I love that. And the themes that you really pick out each year are very poignant to what's happening right now within the change landscape. And you know, my background's in the organizational development world as well. And OD people were completely nad out on everything that you you trainers on as well. So, Doug, from your external view, you know, so as a consultant, what kind of things are you coming across? I love the story that, you know, Janine just said, so we went from psychological safety to psychosocial to AI, uh, and now the constant, rapid pace of change as well. What are you coming across?

SPEAKER_00 10:35

So just dialing it back a little bit, I'd just say, say, as a continuous learner, right? And probably in yourself in your in your podcast, is that we should always keep reflecting. So a lot of the models and the approaches out there are still sound. Yes. Not necessarily suggesting throw things out and reconsider.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

So there's the element of, and and this is comes back to what we have tried to build within Rethink Change, is there are lots of good operators out there. Yes. But sometimes if we look at what people are doing through case studies and and different approaches, you might just reflect and modify and tinker. You don't, again, you don't have to throw everything out. So we're not suggesting that you know a lot of what people are doing, I wouldn't say is not correct or is broke, is just you can take learnings from other people and reconsider and then put that back into the mix and how I might uh approach change. So, like Janine had mentioned, there are a number of kind of external externalities that have come in of say some of the, you know, thinking about um, you know, psychological safety or psychosocial kind of risks. But you put that back into the mix of the way that we approach kind of change, you're now thinking about AI and how do you put that in there? You don't have to throw it out, but how do you then integrate that into the way that you work? And what we've tried to do with Rethink Change, I believe, is leverage the really good operators out there, like yourself, Prina, to just say, here's someone that's tried something from a slightly different lens, and then our attendees or the people in the community can say, Oh, I might take some of that on board and think about how I might approach it. But it's always good when you think about a new approach to always anchor it to some examples, and that's what our presenters or the people in the community bring, right? It's not just theory, but it's it's an approach, and let me show you how I did it. Let me give you some examples.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

Yes. And you're taking me back to last year, and I loved, I mean, it's all of the talks I loved, but the real case studies was it Hydro Water, Tasmania? Yes. Oh, what a tag team they were. The the presentation, the case study, and the amount of sharing that they actually did as well, you know, in terms of what went well, what didn't go well as well, and the truth telling as well, aspect of the stuff that people often don't share was so, so invaluable, I would have to say.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yeah, and and again, we have a very generous community within the the the change management um kind of discipline.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

And so that's part of what Janine and I have tried to foster is that we leverage people within that community to share with others. And turning turning things back a little bit, when we first went into that rethink and reconnect, one of the fundamental parts that Janine brought in that year is we we set up a whole mentoring kind of program that we tried to link people. We did a little bit of that at our last year's conference as well. But there's a lot to learn. I mean, we know this from you know, just good learning method is we learn from each other, not necessarily from going to an event. And so if we can pair people up with other people within the organizations, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Win win. Absolutely. So why do you think change has become such a loaded thing in the workplace? We've talked about the rapid pace of change. Any other reasons? I mean, you work within the change world, you know, daily.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

Yeah. I think um for me it's an emotional work. Yeah. So if you think as humans, what we strive to do is achieve stability, certainty, yeah. And change disrupts this equilibrium, like a nature of it, that is what it does. And so when we talk about change at work, we in addition to the emotional challenge, it also triggers fear. Yes. So I was thinking the other day, if we go all the way back to Kuba Ross and the grief curve and the change curve, that was all about fear and loss, which is why we modified the grief curve and it works perfectly for change as we we've all been playing with forever. Oh, yes. And what happens is that when we we trigger this word of change, people start going, is this about job security? Is this about a new manager? Is it about AI is going to take my role? So we always um become very much more contextual. So that's why it's so important to be accurate on what's changing and why it's changing. Yeah, and the being specific in information will help Janine to go, actually, this isn't AI take taking my job. This is a new work process. And you know, as much as we can support people back into the rational mindset and out of the emotional. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Completely so. I'll give you an example. So I had my lovely, at that time she was 16 years old, my niece doing work experience with me. And I just thought, I'm so flattered you want to do work experience with me. So I thought I'm gonna take her to the good stuff and the boring stuff as well. Um, the good stuff. I was running a workshop on change management for a number of a number of health leaders, you know, in the health sector, and they were all just panicking about this change. She didn't know in detail what the change was about. So this 16-year-old during the break says to me, But I go through change every single day. It's a normal part of life, isn't it? Can't we just tell them that this is all okay? You know, so looking at it from a child's eyes compared to an adult's lens where it's so much more loaded, like you've just said, in terms of, oh, well, it might be AI taking my job or my job might change. It's that lack of security that we have as well. So then, in that respect as well, the the importance of change managers to be extra, extra careful in the way that they land the messaging, the the way that they work with their internal stakeholders, communications, all of that kind of stuff is just something else, isn't it? So needed.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah, well, it's interesting when you say we can just tell them it's okay. And you're right, that's probably a a little uh well, a 16-year-old. I'd kind of give that. Um, but but interesting enough, uh, and this this is probably about like three years ago, I had an executive say when there were some real problems, and I would call it went back more to the design, things weren't designed very well. So if they had better change management earlier, they may have considered with an end-user lens of how we make, but to get through the problems, there was a comment by one of the executives to say, well, we can just change manage it, which was essentially we can tell them it's okay, and we're gonna convince them by saying, and we'll fix these other little things. But it was a broken solution in a sense. There, the the idea from the executive was to through some communications and some work around training to pretty much tell them it would be okay. But the ex the expression they use is in the you know, coming back to your point, was that you can just change manage it. And so, yes, some people that may it's a loaded word.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so while we're talking about loaded, that there's two kinds of people who work on change within the workplace. Usually, you know, my internal experience has shown me that you either have change managers or project managers, and they're different breeds of people. Can we also talk to that? I have an opinion on it. Do you have an opinion on change managers versus project managers and the differences within Janine or Doug?

SPEAKER_04 18:48

Um page because uh I mean, I think it's a healthy attention. Yeah, I think it is a role for both of us. Um and I think they're really it it's a bit of that push-pull. But the most important part in this conversation for me, Brina, is to make sure that the change manager is brought in early. And that's for a lot of reasons. That if they're brought in later, they're just there to tick the box to deliver. Yeah, if they're brought in early, it really is about let's understand the solution, let's make sure we're engaging the impacted audience to Doug's point, so that we're actually building the right solution that picks up the idiosyncrasies of how things actually work here rather than what's documented. Yeah. So I think that early engagement also, and not so long ago I had a conversation of just because you can build the mouse in two weeks doesn't mean your people will be ready in two weeks. Oh, yes. And that goes into business cases. So the PM's going, Wow, the quicker I can deliver this, the quicker I can move on to my next piece. Correct. And the change manager's going, there's a journey, we need to take people on. So not only do they pick up the mouse, but they know how to double-click and they're committed to using it. So I think um the no problems with PMs, it's a partnership, we've got work to do, but we need to respect each other, we need to understand the differences in our role and the responsibilities that we bring to those differences. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Doug, any insights from your perspective?

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Yeah, I I I would agree, you know, they're the two different kinds of roles, both very different in what the what they're trying to um deliver, but the outcomes are the same. Yeah. So both want the same kind of outcomes.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Often you have people from different different kinds of skill sets that they that they bring. My own view is I would love if a lot more kind of project managers, program managers better understood change management principles.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

You would probably have better um outcomes, benefits realization around um whenever that solution is, with kind of the user adoption. And so I agree with Janine that earlier you get in someone that is a that has that deep knowledge around change management, that's helpful to get there. But we often focus on again, that ultimate user adoption, which again, in the same outcomes, we're looking for benefits realization. It's not enough to have that elegant solution because if people aren't using it or using it to its full capacity, yeah, um, you're not truly getting that the benefits realization that may have been documented in a business case.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Yeah, we're we're both aiming for the same place, but may have. A slightly different lens, and it's good to have that tension.

SPEAKER_04 22:03

Oh, definitely. Sorry, the only thing I was going to add is sometimes we don't always end the same point. And one of the things that and it amazes me that we're still having this conversation is that projects finish at go live.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

I know, but that's not the end of the project. No way, that's just the beginning, right?

SPEAKER_04 22:25

Real work begins after go live. And it's almost like, hey, PM, if you've ticked your box, it's all good. I'm respectful to any PMs who are listening in. But actually, the adoption and changing the behaviors is where your benefits sit. And there's so many organizations that invest a massive amount in a business case and paperwork. Yeah. And getting the approvals, ticking the boxes. And then they go live and they don't track it, they don't measure, they don't reinforce because they've moved on. And this conversation around the level of busyness in organizations because our environment is just so diabolical, and AI is just making us do more faster. That I think this is even more at risk than it was before. That we're really gonna throw things over the fence and run on to the next. But I don't know if you think the same. It's just interesting.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Yeah, yeah. Juicy. When I when I worked internally in corporate, my experience, my best experience of working with project managers was they kept me aligned. They kept all of us aligned in terms of this is the deadline, this is the date, this is, you know, here are the project phases. So it really kept us on course for the project, right? The best, best experience I've had is when I was, as a change manager, able to input to the project manager to say, hey, I don't think they're ready from an organizational culture perspective. I don't think this is gonna land yet. Could we just extend it for one more week or two more weeks? We need to add this element or that element to it. So I think project managers, they are the best at keeping things, you know, on board and on process. Change managers, they bring the psychology, they bring the heart, they bring, you know, the head. And I guess the the what's happening on the ground and the feeling. I'm doing the feely uh fingers at the moment, anyone looking on video, you know, the feelers out there often I find that the change manager or the OD person, I'm talking to OD people as well, because often they are the change manager in you know lean organizations, being they've done that. Um, yeah, so two different people, if they work well together, it is something else.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

Okay. Um, how does constantly poorly managed change then in that respect, given we've got constant change happening, impact on trust, uh, the relationship with yourself and future projects?

SPEAKER_04 25:00

So you champion meeting tongue.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

For a lot of us, we've run into an organization you go into and we're already working against a perception around change because it could be that the last um piece of work didn't go well. So, poorly delivered programs, there's two things that happen. One, your leaders probably aren't learning the bet unless they go back. And so then um that may uh impact how they roll out the next one. But from a stakeholder point of view, they I often hear from people, and a lot of people now these days understand change management and they'll say, we don't do change management very well here. You know, the nature of my work where I go into different organizations, I hear that often. Having said that, I do think a lot of organizations are doing change management. There's a lot better understanding, you know, program project managers, but especially leaders, they understand the concepts. They may not always know what to do, but they understand the concepts. And my experience is they're more willing these days to listen, take some um advice and to participate in some of the roles that they need to play. Because at the end of the day, good change management is leaders leading change, right? So if we can if we can get them in there, as opposed to some of the tactical things, to getting the leaders more involved, we'll have better outcomes. But we're definitely, you know, the starting point is influenced by how it's been run before. And so there is often a an awareness that change management has not been handled well in the past.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

100%. Getting leaders involved is really, really important. And I want to, I'm so glad I've got both of your brains today. I want to talk to something which is cognitive dissonance, okay? So cognitive dissonance uh is a feeling that, oh, it's happening, but I don't actually believe in it. Therefore, you know, it's that push and pull. For me as a leader, and leaders are instrumental to any kind of change, as Doug has just said. How do you address cognitive dissonance within the workplace in a change environment?

SPEAKER_04 27:22

I think for me, the the leadership and the trust are, I almost feel like they buckets. And I can see the challenge in this because we need our leaders to be credible and authentic and trusted, which means they need to believe it. Because a successful change is leader-led. We're in the background, we're enablers. You know, one of my pet passions is that um change management should never be the face of a project or a change. Thank you. And so if it's leader-led, good change, and if it's about trust, which to Doug's point, you know, if we've got change, then there's a kind of change trust and dishonesty, um poor expectations, didn't get what I thought I was getting, that kind of erodes the trust. And if we've got a leader standing up there, but he isn't authentically believing in what needs to be done. I I haven't got the quick answer to this, but it's really challenging and it becomes a legacy for the next project and the next one. So maybe, maybe it's about we all need to challenge ourselves if we're not behind something. Why are we doing it?

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Yeah, which is tough. That is really tough. And have the conversation as well, right? Because I often find that you know the middle managers of that meet in that sandwich of yeah, the executive directed whatever change it might be, and therefore I then have to deploy that change. If you don't understand it, if you don't believe it, go talk to your people. If you disagree with it as well, tell them the ears are open, even though the decision may have been made. You can have influence. I think people forget that they have influence as well.

unknown 29:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:20

How much influence do you think we have?

SPEAKER_00 29:27

What do you think? Well, let me walk away from the influence just for a moment. So coming back to the um the leader kind of support, like I uh my experience is a foundation of any program and even certainly the change management is you need leadership alignment. So you may have a sponsor or a certain person that is key to this, but sometimes to make things work, the program may go across different business units. Yeah, and there's different impacts. And so sometimes there's winners and losers in change. And so you may have six out of 10 who are very supportive, and then another four that are you know hanging on the fence because there may be some impacts to their world or to their processes or to their approach. Yeah, I'll give you an example in a in a large ERP program that worked on somewhat recently, a lot of the supply chain and finance um leadership were fully on board. But the commercial teams were not. And the commercial teams, the reason being is that they would maybe have to limit some of the things that they could potentially sell because of the limitations of the back end. And so if you have a program, you know, enterprise program where you need all the leaders on board, you need to make sure you get that right in the very beginning, because then what happens later in some programs is leaders then try to relitigate what it is they're trying to do. And you don't want that to happen at a later point. So the the leadership alignment is really, really important up front. So then that way everyone knows what it is that they're trying to do. There's a common narrative. The messaging might be different, slightly in the different areas, but the leaders need to be on board in the very beginning. So what they say is what they believe.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Um, and so you do have to surface those tensions early, Freena, like you're saying, so we know what those differences are and we resolve that. So when we go out, we're all speaking the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

Oh my gosh. ERP projects, they can they can be the thing of nightmares, can they not? I've got a couple of clients working on ERP projects, and I'm doing change management training on the side. So from an ERP, let's delve a little bit deeper into the ERP, so enterprise resource uh something management system. So a whole system that's gonna impact all of your workflows, whether it be finance, HR, oh gosh, uh the outside workforce, you know, if you've got external workforce as well, have to do work a whole different way now. There's this big amount of panic that happens, like, oh my god, everything's gonna change in the way that we work. So, in the light of what you just said, Doug, bringing people in early, actually potentially showing them the system early as well. You know, this is the missing piece I often find with ERP projects, for example, is that the decision makers will say, Okay, well, we're gonna go with this after this big procurement process, you know. But they haven't brought in the right people to look at the system itself to say, well, would it actually work for this? Would it actually link with this? And that's when things eventually start to break down. And that's like six, seven months down the line after you've kicked off the project as well, which just breaks my heart. But it can be eliminated if we bring them in early on, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yes, that's correct.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

Yeah, look, that's what human-centered design is always all about. Yeah. And it's been around for a long time now, has it not? Yes, 15, 20 years. Yeah, I know that seems to be a very long time. But I and I mean bringing in the impacted users right from the beginning to play with that solution and bring in and and the culture piece, Prin. I think the if the solution bumps into a really strongly held culture norm, yeah, it doesn't matter how good your change is, there's a chance that you're really going to um find it difficult to land it and get adoption and sustainability. So how you know this is and this is also a good conversation around the differences between HR people partners and change. Yeah. Because we I think most of us in those ERP projects really see this play out quite often, where you know, HR's there to manage the organization's obligations to people, they're the SMEs, and then change comes in about the people journey towards adoption and integration. So it's again like the PM conversation, important partnership with clarity as to who's doing what. Yeah. Um, but I think all up, and I'm sorry I've taken us down a bit of a rabbit hole, but I think ERPs do often surface some of the bigger culture norms and challenges.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Very true, very true. Now, Janina, I'm jumping back a little bit. You mentioned HCD, so human-centered design. So lots of people listening may not know what this is, but it has been here since the beginning of time, I feel, right? You mentioned an organization called IDEO, IDEO IDEO, IDEO, however we pronounce it. They are beautiful. So anyone wanting to learn more about human-centered design, uh, it is exactly what it is, uh, as described. So, human-centered design, how can I describe it? If I am building a toilet for women in a rural village in Africa, I am not just going to decide as Prino Shah, the change manager, this is where I should plant the toilet. I'm going to go and live there with them. I'm going to live there in the morning, in the night time. I'm going to see if they've got any trouble. Is there any trouble in terms of walking to the bathroom? Is there any lighting issues? Is there anything else? So we have that bigger lens, right? Human-centered design opens up our eyes from a change perspective as to all of the factors that we need to consider. There's open source material out there that is free, which is just the best. Gosh, what have I been using? What kind of tools do they have? Help me out. Empathy mapping. Oh personas. Personas, all sorts of customer journeys. Customer journeys. Like it's all out there, people. Please use it, right? It's free.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

Um, yeah, that's me or my high horse by like and I I like to think that the the nature of change management is human-centered design. Yeah. So even um the way we do an impact assessment, that's actually about saying what does this change mean for the human? Yeah, it is, yeah. And impact assessments is maybe to start bringing in the empathy map stuff. So, what is the emotional task of a person going through this change now? So rather where it started was process systems, yeah, it was almost the tangibles. Now we we push into some of the more emotive relational pieces, but really a change manager who isn't people-centric is probably not meeting the responsibilities and the proposition of the role.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

100%, 100%. Janine, I'm gonna go back to something that you talked about, which is a really important thing. Post-go live, okay? The project is not over then. Can we just talk about post-go live and the nuances and the needs of the organization and the people and everything else? So the project manager said, Cool, we're live now. Project management's done. Now, what should a good change manager be focusing on?

SPEAKER_04 37:36

So I like to think the first thing is it's not something new. So the business leaders, so say Doug implements a project and it goes into your world, Rena. Yeah, um, you would have been involved on the journey up until then. So it's not a surprise that go live isn't, oh wow, back to the mouse. Wow, I got a mouse. Um, it's something you knew it was coming, you were a little bit ahead of that curve on how to use it so you can support your team. And so at GoLive, the change manager then maybe has checkpoints with Prina, the business or people leader. How are they going? What are the questions coming up? What are the support resources? Repress training. We all love good FAQs, etc. But I think one of the things, and look, I don't think any of us do this enough, is setting what success looks like really early, yeah, and putting targets to it. So we've got a base to measure against because when you're in it post-go life, you go, oh, two out of ten is good enough. But you may have set the target as eight out of ten when you started, in which case there's work to be done. So I think it's there's important processes of reinforcement, but again, supported by change managers, but truly owned by the business and the leaders.

SPEAKER_03 39:11

Yeah. This this part, I remember when I was working in corporate and working with brilliant project leaders, this part is the embedding into the organizational culture element post-go live, right? That's that that's the hearts, the minds of people. How we how have we tapped into them? How have they enabled this change to be received well? All of that kind of stuff. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

I think it's really important, like Janine said, you start early. So you you begin with the end in mind. Yeah. So and the end in mind is not necessarily that go live, period, where you need to get to. So you really start to think up front what to success, how would we measure it?

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

And see you have to measure it the whole way through, and then after go live, so then you can readjust, reconfigure where you need to be, and there needs to be those reinforcement mechanisms. But we have to remember when we first start the process of expectation management to remind people that sometimes things get worse before they get better. So there is that performance dip that often is around that time, a little bit before the go live, even during go live, and it may take a little bit of time even to get back to that neutral state, and then to achieve your benefits over time. Because we don't want to give up too early if somehow things aren't working. Maybe that was always known that things would be a little bit harder before they got there, but we built up front in going back to that human-centric design. We understand how things may operate. And so we're going to build in the mechanisms, reinforcement. It could be culture, like you were saying, Prina, those that may not be aligned there. So we have to figure out, you know, whether there's some cultural, maybe there is um some remuneration that may be required based on what's happening. We have to figure out in in the beginning where we want to get to, and we and we put in a number of our interventions activities the whole way through, including PostgreSQL.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Expectation management is so important, Janine. Yeah, yeah. So I was you once aired with me.

SPEAKER_04 41:23

I was one of the internet. No, no, I um they talk about 70% of change projects fail. No, and they've been throwing these numbers around. All those stats, yep. I wonder if it's more that they didn't deliver on expectations rather than they failed. And I wonder if it's everything you say. Don't you like this? I'm agreeing with everything you said. Um that actually sometimes we don't manage expectations well enough. And we we almost want to sell the change. Yes. And we say, and it's gonna do this, and it's gonna do this, and particularly you see it in culture changes. Yeah, and then we're all gonna behave like this, and it's all gonna be fabulous, and we all love each other, and it's a fabulous, you know, wonderful week at work, and we create those expectations, so then when we go live and culture change, my gosh, that takes months and years and years, yes, and people go, Well, you didn't deliver to my expectations, so I think this is a fail.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Yeah, yeah. And you know, that kind of stuff we we really have to iterate to the people who are being impacted on the change. The change is not a linear journey, like we won't go from here to there. It is that wiggly line that I talked about last year, you know, that liminal space, the funky stuff. We go into depression, we go into chaos, we go into, oh my gosh, the system isn't working, the world is broken. But we do end up in a new world eventually. Eventually. But it's that expectation management in between that is so, so important. Doug and Janine, is there anything else that I haven't asked you that I think we should that you think that we should really be talking about in this conversation?

SPEAKER_00 43:10

I think we we've covered a lot, and there's a lot more we could cover. Yes. So I'm quite comfortable where where we've gone.

SPEAKER_04 43:17

Happy.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Again, I would say stay curious. Yeah. We can always learn from people around us, other experiences, and then experiment with the way that we perform our roles, and you learn what works. There's so many good, you know, concepts, books, other people to learn from. Um, and and again, that's something that you know, I'll go back to rethink change. That's what Janine and I, as an organization, we have tried to foster is trying to get lots of people together, much like you're doing here, Prina, on your on your podcast of bringing in different ideas for people to just kind of chew on it, think about it, and how I might apply that.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Exactly, exactly. May I may I do a public service announcement to any change manager, any project leader, any organizational development person, any business analyst, anybody who gives a crap about change, please, please, please check out the Rethink Change Conference, which happens in Sydney every year around May, June time. Yeah, it's May.

SPEAKER_04 44:23

It's coming up three weeks. If I if Doug and I look worn down, it's because we have three weeks to go. Nearly there, nearly there.

SPEAKER_03 44:31

Not quite serious FOMO this year, because I'm not gonna be there. But I have a last question that I ask all of my audience. If you had a magic wand, and I'm gonna ask you two questions. So, this is a question for each of you. If you had a magic wand, Doug and Janine, I'd like your separate answers. What is one way that you would change the way of the workplace? You could choose anything you want. I will ask Doug first.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Sure. So for me, I would love, and this is from a change management point of view, I would really like that more leaders were more educated and aware of some change management principles because I happen to think they're good leadership disciplines, like a lot of things within change management, yeah, that they would um apply more of that in their day-to-day roles, but also in a program or transformation environment.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Beautiful. Janine, your magic. I hate your point.

SPEAKER_04 45:33

So now I'm and big pressure. Um so I think I think and I was thinking about your language of turning change will change manage them? Is that a curve? Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, um for me, I think it it does build on Dyke's point, but it's about everyone understanding that actually good change is a system, it's not a job. So really to move what is the ecosystem of organizations, we all have a role to play with that. It's not the job of a change manager.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

No way, no way. And I love that you said earlier on, Janine, you're in the background. It's it's the leader, it's the people who are doing the change, right? You are, yeah, that person helping them behind the scenes. Beautiful. I cannot thank you both enough for this amazing conversation. Thank you. I'm glad you to be missing out next year, but I intend to be there next year. And thank you, Prince.

SPEAKER_04 46:39

That was really enjoyable.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Pleasure talking with you.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

All details about this episode are in the show notes. If you like this episode, I'd like you to take a moment and think about at least two people who might enjoy it. Um details, the episode details was under two. Don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn on Instagram and I am torching out.