26. The Pleasures and Sorrows of Working in HR with Marija Andacic and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah, where we uncover ways to make your workplace a much better place to be. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself Prina Shah. And I'm really excited to introduce you today to a HR leader who I have known for around a year now, Maria Anderchik. Welcome. Hello, thanks for having me. Lovely to have you here today, Maria. Um, one one one caveat. I usually speak to people who I have worked with, and we've not had the pleasure of working with each other yet, but I just love your vibe, and we've had many a conversation about all things HR. So I asked Maria to chat to me today about the pleasures and sorrows of working in HR, Maria.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

A big title.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

So with that in mind, Maria, can you tell us about yourself? What do you do? How you got to where you are, and why you do it, please? Um, sure. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Um, I I kind of landed in HR inadvertently. So I guess my if I go back to the start, I'd always wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to teach secondary students because I couldn't handle the little kids. Uh I wanted to do social studies, you know, geography, history, economics. Always had an interest in that. Um did my TE, and in those days when you had to submit your preferences for university, it was a big fat test book like that. I went to an open day with a friend, she was interested in doing psychology, she had a chat to one of the counsellors, and I sat there, flipped through the book, and landed on a double major in HR and IR at Curtin. And I thought this looks really interesting. Something different. So I went and changed my preferences. My dad was wrapped, my mum was not. She wanted to meet to be a teacher and kind and loved it. Um, I actually didn't really enjoy the HR units uh because I found them too fluffy. And those that know me know I'm pretty direct know that I'm pretty honest, and um I didn't like filler words, and I don't like filler words still. So it was interesting. I I had to go and get my transcript the other day from Curtin, and the ones that I did really well in was industrial relations, employee relations, strategic HR, probably my highest um marks, HR, HR management. Yeah, not really, it wasn't high on the high on that aspect. Uh so stayed in IR for a long time, and you know, people go IR, HR, polar opposites, they're actually not. They're they complement each other, and a lot of IR concepts involve HR work. And um, I don't think the two should necessarily be separated as such. So certainly being in IR gave me a great grounding in terms of you know, reasonableness, fairness, procedural fairness, um, ensuring that we advocated for staff as well as for the for the business that we were working in. Uh, started in education, moved out through to health, worked at pretty much every single WA hospital, except for regional, uh, and except for Fiona Stanley, because that was nearly built at the time. Had some really uh great exposure to our staff and also, you know, some of the challenges that they face, you know, especially our frontline staff. You know, it's it's what they do is remarkable and how they do it, and under the circumstances that they do it is, I mean, I type my hat off to them, I couldn't do their job. So, and then thought got to a point where I was like, I need to do something else. And then ended up at Seven West Media as a senior HR business partner, really enjoyed it, uh, hit the ground running, learnt a lot, learnt a lot about business, learnt a lot about uh how HR should be adding value in that space and and why. And it gave me a really good understanding of the broader picture, which I guess tied me back into that whole economics business sort of space that I did at uni. Um from that moved to uh Mercy care, which is uh an intergenerational business which looks at we look after children from our early learning centres right through to uh our aged care um uh people in our community, and then everything in between. We do homelessness, we do, yeah, we do so many wonderful programs, uh family and community, care in the home. It's a wonderful place in terms of when you speak to the staff, they love it, they're really passionate about what they do, and you know, they they really enjoy working with the most wonderful people in our society, and it's across the whole spectrum. So ended up in a HR manager role, and I look after, you know, the most important aspect of any business is payroll. Um, I look after our volunteers as well as our uh employer relations and our talent space. So that's where I am at the moment. I, you know, I I love, as you know, I love talking. I do I do a bit of um work with Curtin in terms of I've been their guest lecturer, I intend uh the HR disrupted events and every now and again get chosen to speak, uh, provide an opinion. Sometimes people don't agree, but that's okay. Uh and I do a bit of mentoring with WA Calice, which I absolutely um enjoy. And yeah, it's good to do something other than just HR work.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Absolutely. And it sounds like you've had a brilliant and varied career in terms of the industries that you've supported in all of your roles. So going from government, health through to media, you know, TV, which must have just been something else, through to not-for-profit now. Um, and all of those organizations have that link of community and people and serving Western Australia, which is where we live, um, and giving back to our community. So that's really interesting as well, Maria. And while you were talking, so uh for our audience, we've got a global audience and they may not understand IR. So industrial relations is what that is. And Maria is a renowned leader in HR, especially within the Western Australian scene. Uh she's well known. Um, we got on and we started talking about our various experiences. And Maria, I've had a similar background to you in that I've supported many an industry when I was working in HR. And that's always interesting as well, because you really get to understand different workforces and their different needs as well. Um, and how HR is perceived in all of these various mammoth organizations as well. So, one question I have for you then, with that in mind, is that HR is a very important function in every organization. However, it is still disliked by many. Yeah. Why do you reckon this is your perspective?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Um I think a lot of the time people don't see what value we bring. And I think a lot of the time that's that's part of our own, that's our own fault. Uh, because we can't describe the value, and we can't translate to value that value into real business numbers. Yeah. And I think there's some challenges with that, and it's actually having the the confidence to be able to say, you know, we can analyze and we can provide workforce data, and data's really important, and and gaining that data is really important to drive business decisions.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

You know, if we look at, for example, turnover, you know, if you've got a high percentage of turnover, you can actually translate that to a real cost and say, well, if you've got 30% turnover and the average cost to hire, you know, and onboard someone is, you know, four and a half thousand dollars, or because you look at time and resources and advertising fees, you know, over you know, a span of a year, that's quite a lot of money. Yeah. You know, if you look at, you know, 30% turnover at $4,000 between spent between four and eight thousand dollars in terms of the cost, you know, and you have 480 staff leave, you know, that's four million dollars. Like it's a lot of money. And when you translate it like that, you go, oh, so when you ask for an initiative that costs you $100,000 that is going to reduce turnover, you have something tangible that you can hold on to. And I think, and I think that's probably where HR comes unstuck because you know we're driving initiatives and uh we're trying to push out initiatives, but you've got no buy-in. Yeah. And and the idea is you must get that buy-in, and you must be able to do it with stats and figures. And there is that uh the unknown, and that is something that we do need to look at, and that is about how our staff feel and what that pulse check is. And yes, we do employee surveys and pulse checks, and well, if you don't have people participating in it, why aren't they participating? And it's getting to the real crux of those issues and being able to then deliver them to executive and bring them on that journey of you know, knowledge transfer and making sure that they understand that without their staff, we wouldn't be here. Absolutely, yeah. People drive profits, and whether you work for a not-for-profit, whether you work for a for-profit, regardless, you've got to make profits, still a business that you have to run. Yeah, so how do we make sure our people drive our performance and drive our profits? So I think there's there's that proof of adding value uh into that space. And we tend to be seen as disciplinarians and we're not, you know. I always describe the HR function as you know, you've got a footy team, I'll go soccer because it's my sport. Um, you know, you've got your captains who are your people managers, and you've got your coaches who are us. You know, we coach the captains into and the captains then deliver what needs to be delivered. But while we're doing that, we're also supporting the captain to achieve, and we're also supporting them and guiding them and saying, you know, have you considered this? What about this? What about doing it this way? Yeah, you know, that's part of our job too, and that's that's not a tangible outcome that you can actually measure, no, but it's really important in in you know how we do stuff. And we're not disciplinarians. I always say to my colleagues and my managers, you know, we don't hold those hard conversations, we teach you how to have them and we will support you to have them because it's important that you have those difficult conversations with your staff, and then it changes the nature of HR and changes the view of HR.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

And that trust in the relationship with the leaders that you're supporting as well, they know that you've got their back, absolutely so. Yeah, yeah. Um, you mentioned a really important point early on, Maria. You talked about being that employee advocate for all. Now, okay, this is a this might be a bit of a controversial question, and just to note that Maria, when she's responding, she's not responding as her current job. Maria is responding, Maria's responding as Maria. She's not responding on behalf of any organization. So, okay, Maria, when I worked in HR, I tried my best to be neutral, the employee advocate for all, you know, as you said. Because I really do think that HR should be impartial. However, often HR are used for the benefit of the organization's interests versus the employees' interests. If one is working in HR, so we're going to have lots of HR people listening to this, how on earth do they deal with this quandary? Because we have all been there.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, you know what, I've been there too, and it's really hard, right? And fundamentally, it's it is about uh influence, yeah, and it is about credibility. And I think we we as practitioners really need to be able to build our capacity to influence, yeah, and our uh ability to offer solutions that aren't always comfortable and aren't always the view of you know, the manager or the business or anything like that. But you know, if you have to be able to paint the bigger picture, uh sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, because fundamentally the decision of the manager is the decision of the manager and they wear that, which is why I always push back on um you know having HR drive those conversations because that's not our job. And I always tell the managers, you know, I see it from your perspective, but when you speak to the staff member, this is what they're going to say, this is what they're going to consider. And certainly, you know, I think there is an illusion that we are there equally for everyone, and I think we just need to kind of get to a reality point where we are to a point, yeah. Because fundamentally we're still here to help drive the business.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Indeed, indeed. It's a real fine line as well, you know. So if you fundamentally disagree with something ex-manager has decided upon, you have done the best to give your advice, or you know, our our team that report to us, I think then also it's that it's that fine line between off you go, manager, you have got all of the goods now. We are here to support you. It is then up to that said leader or the manager to follow through with ideally the advice that we have given. If they don't, then I guess they have to wear it. But then I think you make really important points before you even begin. I think with any organization, it's about that influence and the credibility that you have and that you bring not only to the executive team, but then to everyone that reports to you, as well as the whole HR team working as one. Because often many HR teams, you know, can be fragmented, especially the larger the organization is, the larger the HR team is. And then it's just like, who is that person? I don't want to work with them. So establishing our credibility and influence is just such an important uh aspect of our role within HR. How have you gone about in your past roles in establishing that credibility, the trust and the influence yourself, Maria?

SPEAKER_01 15:26

It's a constant effort.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

You know, I think once you go, oh, cool, great, I've got a great rapport with that person, you can't just sit on your hands. You have to constantly um make the effort to do that. And I think credibility is built on trust, right? So trust that you know what you're talking about, trust that you understand it. But there's also an element of you know, HR seem to be the knowers of everything. Yeah, you know, and and to a degree, we know a lot of things and we're confident in a lot of things, but also we're not. Yeah, and sometimes it's actually okay to go, you know what, I actually don't know, but I'll find the answer out for you. And and that's okay. Yes, you know, so I think if you go in knowing it all, that's probably your first failure point because we don't, and humans are fallible. So I think it's really important to be able to own you know your deficiencies as well as your strengths. Um obviously playing your strengths as much as you can, which is where we're really good at, but also understanding your limitations and saying, you know what, I actually don't know. Yeah, but I'll find out for you, or how about you show me or how about you tell me? And it's that transfer of knowledge that's really important because if you're interested and invested into what they're doing, then they're more likely to come to you and go, hey, what do you reckon? And it might not be a direct HR matter, but it's it's it's building that relationship, it's that managing those stakeholders, managing the people that you work with, not just your team, not just your managers, it's you it's everybody, everybody in the organization, as well as external to.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah, as well as external to. Hello, okay. I'm gonna go on to that shortly now, Marie, as well. Um, but you made a really good point about HR people sometimes don't know everything, and because of the fact that the world is just rapidly changing, and we haven't even used the C-word, and I'm not going to pandemic, COVID, just did. But with that, with everything else that's constantly changing as well, we have to continually evolve as HR practitioners. There's just a lot involved, you know, in terms of the knowledge that HR people have to constantly maintain. So, with that as well, uh, one question I have. So, HR workers, I'm generalizing, yeah, generally speaking, tend to put off their own professional development. Um, and they they tend to put off working on their professional development and working on their professional brand, Maria, which I feel that's my personal opinion, that that's a loss for them. Um, what advice do you give to HR people who are trying to break that mold, who do want to work on their own development and work on their own professional brand also?

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Just do it. Just do it. Like the Nike brand. Like there is absolutely no excuse for somebody not doing professional development, not working on their brand. You are your brand. You walk it, you talk it, the way you communicate. Um, and whether that's via LinkedIn, whether that's internal, whether that's external, you cannot be a great HR practitioner if you don't have your own brand set. I just think, you know, there is so much data out there, there is so much information, there is so much research. I mean, Deborah Wilkes recently did, you know, a great paper through Enable HR. And, you know, I attended a session recently with Trina um on it, and we sort of delved into those challenges of HR practitioners and building that confidence. Yeah. And it and it is all about having the confidence in yourself to be able to search. No one's going to do it for you. No, you know, and that and that's a life skill. I think that's something that is not just for HR people, it's for everybody, anybody that works. Whether you're a frontline worker or whether you're a CEO, personal development, professional development should be something that is constant.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Absolutely. Because one thing I've seen HR people do is develop themselves potentially on IR legislation, industrial relations legislation and whatnot, because that's always evolving. But then beyond that, you know, that thought leadership that ideally you should have as a HR practitioner of what's happening now, what our future is going to be, how we're going to take our organization and our people to there, that's often lacking with that learning and development of HR practitioners themselves. And that then leads to that point that you talked about earlier, Maria, in that to be influential, to be credible, to be seen as that, you need to have that brand.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah. Yeah. I think if you put yourself in silo, that's where you're going to stay. So I think it's really important as practitioners. Yeah, you need to build on that, you know, the current state, you know, legislative changes. Uh, you know, you've got your new work health safety legislation coming in, and you know, you really should be across that, especially with stuff related to psychological safety. And if you're not, then do it. Uh, but you need to look at global trends, you need to look at innovative thinking, you need to look at how agility can help in terms of what you're doing. You need to look at how do you design uh programs and how do you, you know, look at like I'm a big fan of that design, thinking, human-centered design and innovation space. That's that's how you transform your business, that's how you transform the nature of work. Uh, and there is not a business out there that would benefit from it. I firmly believe that, you know, but it's a dedication to teach yourself that. That's that's that's that's where it lands.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Allocating the time and not not just constantly living in that busy, busy, busy, busy culture, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Which we're all busy, we are all busy, it's all about priorities.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Exactly, exactly. Now I tell my kids that all the time. Yeah, priorities. We need to make ourselves a priority, it's so important. Um, so like I said, we haven't worked together yet. Um, so what is your what is your own opinion of working with consultants? And the reason I ask is there's been debate often about HR people using consultants versus versus you know doing everything themselves as well. Yeah. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Uh we can't do it all. No. Unless you're resourced to do it, you can't do it all. And we're not experts in everything. So why wouldn't you seek out an expert to do some work for you? Um, that's not to say that you can't. Work together. That's not to say that you can't set some, you know. I think that initial scoping, really important. Some consultants, uh, there are some bad ones out there, and there are some really, really good ones. And it's a bit like saying there are some really bad HR practitioners out there, and there's some really good ones. Uh, unfortunately, it's those few that are bad that give everybody else, you know, the same, they they all get painted with the same brush. So uh I think consultants have a place and I think they can add value in conjunction with, you know, if you are if you are getting consultant in and it's a set and forget, I think you miss the mark. I think you have to be involved, you have to be actively um looking at what they're doing, how they're doing it, and setting the expectations and the outcomes, you know, and being prepared for the truth. You know, there are there are some um HR managers who go, well, we want this, but maybe you can can you adjust your report or can you adjust the tone or anything like that? I'm like, no, I just want it raw. Thanks. So I know exactly what I need to fix. Um, so there's a place for them, definitely. Um, the keys to finding the right ones.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Absolutely. And I think you make a really, really important point there. And you know, other uh other HR practitioners may have been burnt by using bad consultants. Um, so the thing like yourself, when I used to work in HR, is I would work in partnership and I would share with the consultant, this meets my strategic plan in this respect. This is how you are going to be supporting me to meet my goals.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Um, the other thing I also used to, you have to have that open communication with whatever consultant that you bring is so important. Yeah. Your reputation at the end of the day, and it's related to people. And if things go wrong, you're going to hear about it first and foremost. So the other thing I also used to ask, you know, when relevant and when um viable, is a report, like you said, at the end of the project, just so there's that independent rapport of someone else to prove that this is what was done and this is the outcome that's happened. So that if you ever need to go back to anything in the future as well, you've got that as evidence, uh, which is beyond your own knowledge. And you can use that for business cases and whatever else in the future, also. Yeah. Um, yeah, so consultants and HR people cannot do everything, and nor should they do everything. There's boundaries we need to have as HR practitioners when working internally. Sometimes it's just inappropriate to be doing X, Y, or Z, and you do need that consultant for it, a neutral third person. Yeah, to work in partnership, absolutely. Um, Maria, do you have any practical tips for any up-and-coming HR stars who are listening into you?

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Um, I think it's it's it's don't be scared. You know, don't be scared to do something that you're not, you know, uh, that you don't completely have all the information for. Yes. HR is all about being able to learn and being able to adapt and you know, get out of your comfort zone. You know, change and growth is difficult and it's supposed to be difficult because that's how you learn. So being uncomfortable is actually okay, you know, to a degree. Um, but just don't be afraid to give everything a go. And I think there's, you know, when you come out of fresh out of uni and you go, well, out of all these units, I loved IR. And I talk about myself, I loved IR, and I did, and I and I still do, and it's still one of my passions. Um and I was like, I'm never doing HR. And look where I am, I'm doing HR. Like never say never. Yeah, like it's it's just one of those things, just give it a go. And you know, give talent a run. Like I think it's as a rounded professional, you have to have some understanding in all facets.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

So just give it a go. Otherwise, you know, you risk being pigeonholed and not being able to move.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yeah. And yeah, that's that's a very good point. I've seen people who are closer to the midpoint or you know, end of their career who said, damn, I wish I'd chosen different areas of uh working in HR because I would have made my skills more transferable so I could jump around. Yeah. Yeah. Very good.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

You know, I've just brought a um, I've got a new staff member that works with us, and you know, she's just on her masters, and the idea is that she sits under talent more just from a reporting perspective. Yeah. But she'll get exposed to ER, she'll get exposed to payroll, she'll get exposed to, you know, that whole life cycle.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yeah. And that was that's what makes a true HR practitioner, knowing the full aspect of all of HR. Um, you talked earlier about your external network, and uh I think it's really important for HR practitioners to have a good external network. Often again, HR practitioners just stay within their bubble of their organization. What are your thoughts on that and how are you managing it? Tell me what you yeah, external networks.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah, there's a few points. One being having external HR practitioners outside of your bubble is great because you can um bounce things off. So I I've I have access to HI practitioners in the NFP space. I also have access to HR practitioners in manufacturing and building and media and health and a variety of different industries because they do things different, and you go, well, that might work and that might not. Uh, but I also have people that I tap into that are not from HR. Yeah. Um, they either run their own business or they're a CEO or they're a coach or um, you know, a psychologist. Like I think it's really important to really have a wide network of people that you touch base with. And that doesn't mean that you have to touch base with them every day or you know, once every three months, or once every six months, you know, like it's really important. Like I have access to, you know, people that I touch base with at Waypole. Like they don't have anything to do with HR, but they manage people and it's people at the end of the day, people are people. It doesn't actually matter what role you do, uh, it gives you that breadth of knowledge. Yeah, it gives you um, you know, a bit broader understanding for a more generalized approach to HR.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah, it's moving beyond our bubble echo chamber of HR. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Agreed. Look, don't get me wrong, it's really important to establish those HR networks because it's also the knowledge sharing. You know, hey, what did you do on EVP or what did you do on COVID policy, or what did you do on this? Can you share it? And you know, we do, and it's great. Um, and it also kind of sets a benchmark of well, these are what everybody else is doing. So, you know, we probably need to do the same or similar. So that's really important too.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Yeah. And for those who are listening in, by the way, I'm gonna put Maria's contact details. Uh, so if you want to reach out to her as well, you are welcome to in the show notes. Maria, I've got one final question for you, which I ask everybody. If I was to give you a magic wand and ask you what is one way you would change the way of the workplace, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 29:40

That's a really good question. There are so many things running through your mind. I think keep it simple. Um, listen to your people. Tell me more. So you know, your people are your barometers, like your th thermometers, not barometers, but I guess they are too. There are there are weather space. Um they they will either work for you or work against you. And I think it's really important to have that, you know, you know, you've got your hierarchy and you've got your org chart and do that diagonal sort of crossover. I think it's really important to have your fingers on the pulse, you know, because they're the ones that will either support the initiatives that you put in place or not. So I think as an organization, people need to come before profits because your people are making your profits. And without your people, you wouldn't have your business. So it's really simple. Listen to your people.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah. Do you have examples of how in past roles you have listened to people, you know, in that respect?

SPEAKER_01 30:46

Yeah, I um I think there's an element of it, it really depends. Like I've been fortunate enough to work across lots of different industries, and you know, uh what works in one business won't work in another. Um, and it's about asking those questions of you know, open-ended questions, what makes you stay? Yeah, really simple. What makes you stay? What would make you leave? And it's stopping it at the past because if people go, I'm really frustrated at the fact that I'm gonna use a really silly example, but it's actually happened. You know, my monitor hasn't been working for the better part of six months. Well, like just you just fix it. And it's just those little things that people get annoyed at because they want to come to work and be happy at work. You spend a lot more time at work than you do at home. So, you know, if you can make it comfortable and enjoyable and obviously challenging, um, then you know, you generally people will speak for itself.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Completely. And as HR practitioners, we have so many touch points with people, formal and informal, where we can listen and check in. Um, you know, the formal measures being culture surveys, engagement surveys, and all that kind of stuff. But then informally, when you're having meeting, when you're meetings, when you're walking around, kitchen conversations, you know, pulse chairs.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Those water cooler conversations are so important. Aren't they the best? I actually say to my team, um, I don't want you sitting at your desk, I don't want to see you sitting at your desk all week. You need to be out and about. COVID, you know, has kind of kabushed us a bit of that, but um, get out and about, just go sit in an office in one of our facilities, and what you hear is yes, priceless. Yes, you know, it's that emotional connection versus that contractual connection versus that you know experiential connection. Like there are so many facets that we are privileged to tap into. Yes, just don't abuse that privilege.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Perfect. Don't abuse that privilege. On that note, I will call it an end. And Maria, I think we could talk even more for about so much more. Um until the next time. Thank you so much for the time.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

If you want to meet great thinkers who stand against crappy workplace cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams, then you need to join the Ways to Change Your Workplace Facebook group, which is linked in today's show notes. I will see you in the next episode. Bye for now.