32. Become Better at Business Relationship Management with Malini Jayaganesh and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace. This one is going to be a really good one to help you uplift your leadership game. This episode with the award-winning business relationship management expert Marlene Jayakanesh is brilliant. You are in for a treat. Marlene uses such visual language and she shares so many gems with you, not only to improve your business relationships, but to improve your organizational culture and to improve your professional brand. I can't wait to hear what you think about it. Let us know after you've tuned in to this episode. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prinasha, and I'm very happy to introduce you today to my guest, Malini Jayaganesh, who is from Victoria in Australia. Now, Malini, welcome. It's so good to have you here today. Malini, I've got a little bit of an introduction to you. You have many an accolade, Malini Jayaganesh, specializes in nurturing high-performing cross-functional teams. She was featured in the global list of top business relationship managers in 2019 and 2020. She has received five Global Excellence Awards from the Business Relationship Management Institute, as well as Service Excellence Award from the Department of Health and Human Services in Victoria. Malini is a specialist in all things business relationship management, which is what I'm talking to her today about. So, Malini, that's the intro to you. But in terms of introducing yourself, welcome. And I'd love to learn a little bit more about yourself, what you do, why you do it, and how you got to where you are. First off, please, Malini. Okay, Preena, that's actually quite a loaded question.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

So in terms of uh, you know, where you know, where I am from, uh, as uh uh as some of your your viewers or listeners may have guessed, um, I I grew up in India, so so I'm from from the subcontinent. Um, I also did my high schooling in Singapore, and I came to Australia as a young adult, and I've been here for about 27 years. So um uh, you know, Melbourne is uh home now. Um and my career has spanned things like business process improvement, business analyst, project manager. Uh, and of course, in recent years, it's uh it's been all about business relationship management. And as to the second part of your question, um, you know, which is uh what has inspired me to do what I do, I have a have a little story to share with you. So quite early on in my career, um I was involved, I had the opportunity to be part of a project, and and my own role in that project was somewhat peripheral, right? But there were but there were six uh main um uh you know sort of players in that project. They were the decision makers and so on, and they were all senior members of the organization. And the way I would um, you know, retrospectively when I think about it, um the way it played out was they had gathered together to bake a pie, right? And each person had one unique ingredient that they that they uh brought. So one person had flour, another person had apples, another person had sugar, etc. Right. Yeah. And so the idea was they would they would bring all this together, bake a pie, and then divide it into six portions, and each person would get a slice, right? Yeah. But what I saw happening was that each person would put in only enough ingredients for one slice of the pie because that's all they were going to get out of it. Yes. So the person would apples, uh, you know, instead of putting in three apples, would only put in half an apple because that's what they were going to get, and and so on and so forth. So let alone a pie, we hardly ended up with a pancake. And and from the very beginning, you know, because I was there mainly to observe and learn, from day one, I had this feeling that this was going to be a disaster, right? It was very disappointing, but a key, you know, a key learning that I had from that whole experience was, you know, uh how much distrust there was, how much unwillingness to share. There was, you know, everybody was just focused on, you know, um their wedge of the pie rather than uh a shared outcome for everyone, right? And it made me realize, and I was, you know, it was a it was a very disappointing experience, but I'm glad I had that experience early in my career because it it highlighted to me that if we can actually address relationships and relationship issues, um, it can actually um have far-reaching positive outcomes in the organization. And hence over the years, I've actually focused more and more on nurturing uh relationships, you know, within teams, within cross-functional teams, and so on. Got you.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Oh my gosh, what a beautiful analogy as well about the apple pie um and the you know pieces of pie. So, Malini, a lot of the organizations that I support, um I support them through organizational culture optimization and culture change, let's say. And hearing your story about, you know, the apple pie, I'm hearing about silos, about lack of communication. I'm now hearing about I'm creating my own little culture here, you you create your own culture there. I'm talking about, I'm hearing now also about um patch mentality. I'm protecting my piece of work potentially as well. And these are all the kind of things that I deal with from you know the work that I do. But that's why I'm really pleased to be talking to you today, because I think business relationships or stakeholder management really closely links in to organizational culture, um, good culture or bad culture. And that's you know, up to the organization how these relationships are managed and nurtured as well within the organization. The more we work now, Marlene, as well, uh again, linking back to your apple pie example, we're working hybrid teams, we work on virtual teams, we're working on different projects. So, you know, you could be in uh Victoria in Melbourne, where you are, and I'm in Perth. And we could still be in the same organization, but working together. Now, if we're talking about the apple pie concept in the modern, you know, in the hybrid world, that's even more of a concern because my apple pie is so far away from you, and we're not even meeting in person anymore. Ah, I've got lots of questions for you now. Okay, let's talk about first uh basics. What is, from your perspective, relationship management 101? Uh I think the the um there's a lot to it, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Yeah, but but if I were to just pick um, you know, uh I mean we could be here forever, Freena, but if I were to just pick two or three things to highlight, right? Yeah. One is that, you know, when we speak about organizational culture, right, there's different aspects to it, like processes, systems, etc. And people is one of those aspects. But it's people who actually make the culture who determine what the culture is, right? So um, and so the interactions between people, actually, you know what we refer to as relationships, that's paramount. Yeah. Um, and irrespective of um, you know, the mode in which relationships um or like people engage in relationships, you know. So currently, for example, you and I are engaging in a virtual mode. That's just a channel, right? Yeah, but what underpins our relationship is the respect we have for each other, um, our willingness to share what we know, right? That comes like operating from a position of generosity, right? Um, like you've been kind enough to invite me to your podcast, you know. And that, like I think that trust, empathy, you know, those good, basic good values, right? Courtesy and things like that, irrespective of whether we are operating uh, you know, in a in the same physical environment or in a hybrid environment or entirely virtually, those things don't change. Those things still form the foundation of good relationships, right? And that's what you know, those values actually contribute to relationship resilience.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

So if you think about the longer term, where we have a relationship based on mutual trust and respect, right? If this if we if we encounter uh a glitch, right, if something doesn't go um, you know, in the way that you would like it, you are more likely to give me the benefit of the doubt, right? Because you know me, you trust me, and you go, this is out of character formalni, okay, or maybe I haven't understood it. Let's have a conversation about it, right? Rather than um sort of um rather than you know jumping to the worst possible conclusion and then you know the relationship sort of spiraling downward from that. So I think these values I would say are what we have to keep at the center of uh good relationships.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Yeah, oh my gosh. So before, yeah, it's that no like and trust, you know. So we have to build that that relationship between ourselves before anything else happens, you know, from a let's say project perspective. When you were talking, I was writing about uh one line that you said, Malini, um operating from a position of generosity. Oh my gosh. Now that really spoke out to me because when we're talking about workplace cultures which are not so good, and we're talking about uh toxic teams or toxic workplace cultures, people are not operating from a position of generosity. People are operating from a position of me, and these are my KPIs, and I have to meet them. Not for that greater good of the organization. And you know, I've seen many a time also where it's my agenda against yours rather than that common goal that we have. And that's because of the fact that we don't have that operating from a position of generosity in our mindset, first and foremost.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

You're absolutely right, Freena. You know, um, and and the thing is if if we want to sustain relationships from you know for the longer term, yeah, you know, generosity has to be there. Yes. You know, yeah, it simply will not work if if we have this us and them kind of mentality.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Yeah, yeah. I remember uh I think it's Stephen Covey who writes about uh relationships and think of it like a piggy bank. Um, you put you put money into a piggy bank and sometimes you take money out. So you deposit and you withdraw from a relationship. You can't just keep on withdrawing, withdrawing, withdrawing. You'll be in deficit then. There'll be an issue. Um, it's a two-way process, isn't it? Yeah. I play my part, you play your part, and we meet nicely, ideally, in the middle. Stakeholder engagement is a very important leadership skill. To ensure that we manage change, that we develop our organizational cultures well as well, but it's still difficult for some to adapt to. Do you have any thoughts on this and any tips on this, please, Malini?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

So I think, you know, as someone who has um, you know, nurtured um, you know, uh teams through this relationship journey, you know, where they start from the position of antagonistic relationships, you know, this as a them kind of mentality. Um, and I've sort of, you know, as their manager, I've actually nurtured them to a place where they're able to work together in a sustained way to achieve outcomes, right? Yeah. One of the things I focus on is defining performance measures that actually support uh collaboration. A lot of, you know, like you know, in organizations, something that we see uh quite frequently, and Preena, you would know this, is that the performance measures that are used for individuals are actually geared towards encouraging individualistic behavior rather than collectivist thinking. Yeah. Whereas if my performance measures, um, you know, apart from things for myself, you know, sort of like my own uh, you know, learning and development and that sort of thing, that's that's one thing. And I might have some career aspirations that other other people might team might not have. But there should be some measures in there that actually uh focus on how am I enabling other people to be successful? Only then, like you know, what they say the rising tide lifts all boats. Like, so we we should like our performance measures are you know, sort of really drive our behaviors, right? Yeah. Um, and so very simple way to bring that thinking up, like to shift the thinking. Oftentimes, when I introduce performance measures that are team-oriented, uh, I get pushback, right? I get pushback from from staff who go, Oh, why should I do this? And that person doesn't share this and that. And I say, well, try this out. And then in a few months, they actually invariably they say, I have never felt like I'm part of a team like this before, right? It creates that sense of belonging and shared purpose, you know, that we are in this together. Um, it completely changes the dynamics.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yes. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. That's so good. Um, I interviewed uh Professor Steve McKenna on an earlier episode on changing the way that we do performance and development plans. And oh my gosh, if you haven't listened to it, people need to go back and listen to that after they've tuned into this episode. But in that, he talks about just scrapping the whole system because of the fact that it is so individualistic and we don't work in that manner within the workplace. We're all cross-functional, we're all, you know, virtual teams, virtual projects of some sort or the other nowadays, right? Okay. One of the things I've also been supporting many a client on Malini, and this talks to defining performance measures that enable collaboration, definitely so, is stepping back from that also, uh, one step prior to that, step back and look at the team and the team brand. What do you stand for? What do you stand against? That's a really big one as well. And that brings people together. But then the other question I ask, you know, the teams that I'm um supporting through the team brand sessions is now what is your stakeholder going to say about you? And what does the stakeholder actually think about you? Because what one says and what one thinks are often different things. So let's try and marry them. And that's one really important aspect. So when we're talking from a team perspective, then Malini, how do you enable teams to consider their stakeholder, whether it be internal or external stakeholders, in this whole relationship piece, because that's a massive impact on our organizational culture, there also.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

You're right, Preena. And usually when, you know, or trend typically when um teams do stakeholder analysis, right? It's in the context of a particular project or program. So they they would actually say who are the key stakeholders, what sort of um influence do they have, you know, what sort of support uh are they willing to provide, you know, how much um what's their level of buy-in for this initiative and so on. Yes. I actually I actually like to change the time orientation, right? So what I say to um uh not just to my the teams that I'm leading, but also I I deliver uh business relationship management training, right? So so even in my training, what I say to people is that expand your time orientation so that it's not just about the project or program that's right in front of you, right? Think in the longer term. There'll be many projects, many programs that we have to work together on, right? So when you change your time orientation, your approach to the relationship will be different, right? It's sort of like the difference between a one-night stand and a marriage. When when when you when you're and and I I also would uh prefer to Dorie Clark's book, you know, the long game, right? Yeah. All the things, all the suggestions she makes about how do we how do we um work towards that long game orientation as opposed to a shorter uh orientation, right? Of course, you need to have empathy, trust, and and all, you know, all the things that we have talked about earlier. Correct. But also the the kind of you know milestones that you would set for yourself, you know, the way that you might, you might also be like you you'd actually have to drop judgment about what people can and can't do. You might be more willing to experiment things. Uh, if something's not working, you go, okay, let's change that. You won't sort of think of it as a failure and this is the end of the road. You'll actually say, okay, let's try something else and let's see if we can keep on playing. You know, so so when we do stakeholder analysis, first and foremost, let's actually do it for the longer-term relationship, right? Yeah, right. And then these projects and things are all links in that chain. Yeah. And I think that that actually completely reframes the situation for people.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Absolutely. I'm still processing it. And you've just dropped another beautiful analogy of a one-night stand versus a marriage in terms of that business stakeholder relationship management as well. And we need to absolutely focus on those longer-term marriage type of relationships that you refer to. And how fruitful would that be? You know, if we did change our mindset from being like, let's just be honest, little robots working on this project, that project with a teeny weenie scope, compared to that bigger picture, thinking of, yes, while we are working on this project and these stakeholders, our longer-term vision is this, and these are our stakeholders, and this is what we see, and this is how we're going to get there. So, from an employee perspective and an organizational culture perspective as well, Marlene, I imagine that there's far more buy-in from teams when they look at it from that long-term marriage perspective rather than that individual one-night stand perspective.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

People progress to that understanding, let me put it that way, because it's a culture shift, right? So it's sometimes hard for people and also for leadership, you know, organizational leadership to to understand why it's important to reframe our our approach, right? But but once they um and the and the only way for them to really buy into it is to actually give that a go. Yeah. It's it's hard, you know. Um, I think it's hard to really appreciate the value of that long-term relationship if you've always been operating in a short-term mode, right? Absolutely. Um, and you might think, oh, that's boring, it's it takes too long, it's not worth the effort, and and so on. But um when you when you when you start shifting your approach to relationship, you've relationships, you'll find that it gains a momentum of its own, you know. Uh to use one of um Dory's uh metaphors, she says, look for the raindrops, right? Those little things that um indications that things are actually progressing well. Um, and those then sort of encourage you to continue in that mode, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Um when when we when we adopt a longer um term orientation to our relationships, we actually take time, like we invest time and effort in understanding the other parties better, right? We don't rush through it. We actually um we we understand, try and understand what their imperatives are, you know, what's the context which within which they operate, and you know, what their strengths are, what are the areas in which they actually need support, what are skills that I have that might complement you know what they bring to the table, and so on. So it's it's a it's a beautiful thing that unfolds.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

And I understand that thinking about you know the response that you just gave. And I guess the barriers would be in relation to the fact, again, going back to our performance in development. Development plans, if it's just for this quarter or for this financial year, that's my that's my vision, tunnel vision, versus, oh my gosh. So we really need to rethink the way that we work in that respect, in in the way that we allocate work to people, short-term, long-term, you know, we can have different types of lengths of time of work, but from a relationship perspective, especially, I think, oh, you've given some really interesting insights as to, yeah, that time perspective, um, single versus uh sorry, one night stand versus a marriage, and then the apple pie analogy as well. And I think for individuals who are tuning into this as well, what kind of advice or tips would you give them if they are looking to improve themselves as a recognized expert or a good relationship person? Yeah, so in a workplace, you're not going to succeed if people don't know you. You need to build those relationships and nurture those relationships genuinely. That's the other big part as well. Do you have any tips for people who are looking to improve relationships within the workplace in the respect that we're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

That's a great question, Freena. So one of the I had many learnings from that um apple pie situation that I told you about, right? Um, but but two of them uh that I think is relevant, you know, in the context of the question that you've just asked me. One is I realized that that I didn't want to change my approach, right? Um, because one of the things that happened was I was quite naive, you can say. I actually was quite generous in in sharing whatever I I had the ability to share, right? And someone who was in a in a slightly more senior position actually appropriated that and used that to get promoted. And it was it was a disappointment for me, but on reflection, I thought I'm not going to let that person's behavior change my attitude because I have to live with myself and I know that I'll only be able to do that if I continue to operate from that gener from a position of generosity. Yes. And the second thing I also learned is that if I want to influence other people, I'm going to have to learn how to do that in a way that will capture their attention. And as a migrant woman of color, uh and generally being of the quieter sort, that is actually quite difficult.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

And so I had to actually learn how to um showcase what I'm trying to do, um, you know, how to get comfortable with becoming visible or making myself visible, and also finding, looking for and finding people uh who are like-minded, because even if they're outside my organization, right, the those relationships offer a lot of strength, you know, like like you, like our relationship, Freena, right? We're not actually working together on any project, right? But just the fact that we are we we we are friends, we know each other, and I can see you're doing things that I admire and would like to emulate, and there's mutual respect and so on, I draw a lot of strength from that.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

So I I this is what I would say to anyone who um who's looking to uh take take on more of a longer-term relationship orientation, right? If in your immediate environment, if you find that um the situation you know is not particularly supportive, don't lose heart, right? Keep showing up and doing all the things that you need to do, right? To build your influence and visibility. At the same time, if you have to look you know externally for support, um, you know, um and and allies, do that. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

And yeah, the world is open to that so much more now. Absolutely. Marlene, you have shared so many gems. I'm going to put Marlene's details in our show notes. So for anyone who wants to reach out to you, uh, your details will be in there. Marlene, I've got one final question for you. If I was to hand you a magic wand and say to you, what is one way that you could change the way of the workplace, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 26:34

I would actually ensure that organizations invest in nurturing leaders of a different kind. I think the kind of leadership that is um uh perceived as good leadership or typical leadership, I think it's time to time to change that because that's the type of leadership that has led to the workplace cultures that we are seeing today. Yeah. And there are there are many, many people with different views who who show up differently. Uh, and I think organizations need to nurture that talent and give them a fair go.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Yes, absolutely. And again, it's looking at their systems and their beliefs of what a leader is as well. Nice. Yeah, completely agree with that. Malini, thank you so much for your time. If you want to meet great thinkers who stand against crappy workplace cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams, then you need to join the Ways to Change Your Workplace Facebook group, which is linked in today's show notes. I will see you in the next episode. Bye for now.