44. How Leaders Speak the Language of the Mind with Jamie Dixon and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with Myself Prina Shah. This episode is a really good one. Get comfy and let's do this. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah. And I'm really pleased to be introducing to you today Jamie Dixon. Jamie, I've got a little bit of an introduction to you, so bear with me. I've got lots of stuff to say about Jamie. So first off, before I even talk about Jamie, I want to ask you, listeners, have you noticed something about the best leaders at your workplace? What is it about them that makes them the best? Is it their technical knowledge? Or is it their leadership skills? Or could it be it's the way that they take you on a journey? So today I'm going to be talking with Jamie Dixon about how leaders speak the language of the mind. And Jamie Dixon, who is this guy? Who is Jamie? I came across Jamie, gosh, probably around a year or so ago, I think I would say. And from our mutual friend Yuri, who has an organization called the Magic Source. And I'm happy to disclose how we came across each other. Yuri ran a session on working solidly on something for 24 hours, an accountability project. And we all report back to each other. As entrepreneurs, we need friends. And this is how I came across Jamie. And Jamie, can I just say I was blown away by what Jamie did in 24 hours? He booked a hotel room and wrote a book. That is crazy. But since then, or prior to then, I know that Jamie has written a number of books. One book called Shaping Paths: How to Design and Deliver Practical Training. The thing that I love about Jamie is that he's really practical. His next book was called Overcome and Get It Done. And then Jamie's latest book that I really want to talk to him about is The Story Habit. Jamie coaches in and trains in both English and Mandarin, and he's based in Shanghai. So hello from Perth, Jamie. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Thank you very much for having me. Thanks for the introduction as well. It was a really exciting way of meeting you in that 24 Let's Go project. And it's good to be back with you.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

We've connected since, and I love the stuff that you do. And I feel that we speak a similar kind of language, Jamie. And congratulations on your new book, The Story Habit.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

That's very exciting. Jamie, to begin with, can you tell us why you do what you do and what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

That's a good question, actually. At different times, I'll have a different answer to that question. But I would say my ultimate passion is about behavior change. And the three books I've written seem quite different. One was about training design, one was about productivity. And this latest one, plug, is about storytelling. But actually, they're all ultimately about behavior change. And shaping paths is about a practical approach to designing training focused on behavior change. Overcome and Get It Done, the book I wrote in 24 hours, was about managing your own behavior and getting things done. And the story habit, plug again, is all about how to change other people's minds, which ultimately leads to behavior change. So I'm really obsessed with behavior change. And that comes out through my work as a coach and trainer. And right now, a big focus, very specific focus is helping leaders influence the stakeholders that they work with. And storytelling is a big part of that.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Absolutely, Jamie. And all of your contact details are going to be in the show notes. So for people who want to stalk Jamie, I highly recommend that you do. Jamie, I state that change and culture go together like PB and J. Yeah, organizations still mess it up. And I really want to uncover why, from my perspective, and you've helped many an organization build positive change, this kind of change is often led from the top. And these people often have little idea about what's happening on the ground, let's say from a generic perspective. And then also not the best people to bring people on the change journey with them. This is what I'm saying. So, in relation to bringing people on the journey of change, I know you have lots of formulas and lots of information to share with us. What kind of problems, let's discuss, have you come across first?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Well, the first part of the story habit, of the framework in the story habit, is a word that I think is really important for leaders to bring people on their journey of change, which is relate. And a lot of the time, the second word is actually challenge. A lot of the time when we want people to change, we go straight to challenge and we go straight to pointing out what's wrong with what they're doing and what they should do instead. But if we don't relate first and show that we understand why they're behaving in that way, why they believe that way, and show that we understand their motivations, they won't welcome our challenge. If you are a leader and you are trying to bring about a change, you have to start by thinking about the individual's perspective and how it's going to impact them and what they really, really care about. A few years ago, I had a conversation with an HR director, and she was saying that for her business, they could see problems on the horizon. They could see that their competitors were catching up with them, their customers were becoming more demanding, but it's not a problem now. It's a problem maybe one or two years in the future. And she said, So we're going to start changing the way we do things, and our staff will just have to cooperate. And it just doesn't work like that because they can't feel the need to change now. So when you can't relate to where they're at right now, it is just going to be a lot of hard work and it's not necessarily going to succeed. So relating, I think, is a really key part for starting. And it's something I think a lot of leaders kind of skip and could develop a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

100%, Jamie. Beautifully said. And I remember I was managing some change for an organization, supporting them, you know, behind the scenes as we do. And one manager had the best revelation. And she says, Prina, I'm going to go in and deliver this message tomorrow. We've been working on this change behind the scenes for around three months. I need to be mindful of the fact that whatever I deliver tomorrow, I know all about. But my staff, this is the first time that they're hearing it. And I think, Jamie, often is the case that, you know, managers, when you're high at the top, you're working on secret squirrel business for months on end. And then when you go to deliver that message, often you're in robot mode and you don't consider that first stop, consider the other person. And that relating to change, the other thing I love about you, Jamie, you're practical. So, in terms of how we can relate to change, first off, using your model, how does one relate to change in relation to the experience that you just talked to?

SPEAKER_00 7:46

So, the example you're talking about right there, one really important principle is that whenever you are going to talk to people and you want them to focus on what you say, remember that attention is goal-directed. And the audience, in that case, her employees, they are going to have things that they are focused on, things that they care about. Their goal is job stability, keep working on the projects that they have in mind for the future. And any information that is incoming, they are going to filter through according to the goals that they're focused on. So the moment that senior leader stands up and says, I'm announcing a change in the organization, that is the moment they start focusing on the goal of how do I guarantee my job stability? And when you start talking about, so this is why we're changing, and this is why we think this change is important. How does that relate to my job stability? And if it doesn't, filtered and the message doesn't get through. So it's really important to consider what are the goals that they really, really care about, and how can you relate your message to that? And for any change, really, if you want people on board, you have to think about the goals that are important to them. If you don't do that, then your only other option is to push and to slave drive and good luck. That's probably why right now we're seeing in many countries the great resignation, because they've got new goals, they want to enjoy work-life balance, spend more time with their family, and you're telling us to come back to the office? Why? So if you want a more harmonious and reasonable relationship with your people, always start by thinking about what experiences have they had and how has that shaped the goals that they have right now, and how can I relate to that? And when you can start by relating to that, then you will keep them on board with you.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Beautiful, Jamie. I was writing as you were talking. So there's the what's in it for me factor as an individual, as an employee, where this change is being imposed on me. So the leader needs to consider the what's in it for the employee factor. The other thing, Jamie, so I work in Australia as well as globally, but talking to an Australian perspective, there's this HR thing where when you manage change or let's say a restructure, you have to consult with your organization. And for people tuning in, you know, I've got exclamation marks I am doing with my hands, because that consultation process is a lot of BS often. So it's a tick-in-the-box activity for two weeks. Yep, job done, we're going to continue with the change. I think there's a massive missing piece there with this relate aspect. Because if HR practitioners or leaders who are managing this change actually tapped in to the skills that you're talking to in relating to the needs of the employee in relation to the change, and you truly listen to that, you're going to listen to their objections, their fears, their needs. And it's really tapping into that whole empathy aspect and you know, compassionate organizations and all of the good stuff that organizations now are supposed to be doing. That's the missing piece I often find from the kind of work that I have supported organizations with. Jamie, sharing a little bit about myself as well. So when I run workshops, often, and no doubt you run workshops on change and culture change, and you get a room full of people with their arms crossed, and who the hell are you, consultant? You know nothing about us. The thing that I start often with is a big, you know, butcher's paper. Let's list all of our objections about today here. My time is valuable, your time is valuable. What are we thinking about today? How's it going to be? What are your objections? And then, you know, we have an open and honest conversation about them. Because as a facilitator or as a consultant, you need to know what you're working with. And I feel that that's how we work, and that's that relational aspect. And that really needs to be applied in a workplace perspective as well, more so.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Yeah, as I'm listening to that, one thing that I really strongly believe in, and I think this is a huge issue in the way business is done generally right now, is that someone in a position of power decides this is what we're going to do. And that's it. That's the change, that's the decision, that's the direction. And I'm just going to force people to go with me. And if instead what you're talking about, that the consulting process and did we take all of the boxes, again, that's the same mindset. We have this change. How do we make sure we're following the right protocol with this change? Drop all of that and think more about human beings that you're working with. If you want them to go with you, it has to be a change that they have co-created with you. Obviously, that's not always practical, especially in big organizations. But if your approach is just to push, just to insist this is the way we do things, then you're going to meet resistance. I do think in big organizations, the bigger the organization, the more you probably have to go the path of pushing because you have so many people to work with. But I think this might be a change we might witness in the coming years. And I think we're already witnessing it, is working more with freelancers, more individuals who own their direction. And they look at what things your business is working on and they think, does that align with my interests? And that way they take ownership. I think that's probably one of the big changes we're seeing post-pandemic is people don't want to be pushed along anymore. They want that ownership and they want that sense of autonomy. This is something I choose to do. So what you were describing in the way you run your workshops there is you are starting from where they are at, and you are you are trying to find a way of co-creating the rest of this workshop in a way that aligns your interests and their interests exactly, rather than just forcing things through. So I think it's really important to start where they're at to drive for more autonomy with the people that you work with. And I think that might be a little bit too much here, maybe, but I think that might be the future of business where we work more with people who this is really what they want to do. They're not just doing it to satisfy someone or tick a box. This is really what they want to do. And that can involve completely changing the way some businesses operate.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Yeah. Exciting times ahead. So, Jamie, we've talked about your first step of relate, and we've, you know, dissected that. The next step is challenge. Tell me more. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

So, as a quick overview, actually, of the whole framework, relate challenge, resolve.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

It's a framework that you can use to tell stories, but also to influence the stories people believe in. For when it comes to telling stories, a story has to be about a character in a situation the audience can relate to. Otherwise, they can't understand it. And then something changes in that character's world, and they're faced with a challenge. And the character has to adapt. And that's the resolve part. And when it comes to change, influence, and persuasion, as we were just discussing, start with relating to the stories that they believe in right now and show you really understand them and you are not a threat to them. You are there to help them and support them. Once you've done that, then you can start challenging them. And challenging is really about pointing out the flaws in the stories they have right now and offering them a story that serves them a lot better. And I think a really cool example is any of these disruptive companies that come around in the last decade or so. Airbnb completely challenged everyone's story about traveling. When you travel, you stay in a hotel. Where else would you stay? You'd stay in a hotel. And Airbnb comes along and challenges that and points out that by staying in a hotel, it's always the same. You don't get that immersion in the local culture. It's expensive or it's really cheap and really horrible. Well, here is another way. Here is a better story for you. You could stay in someone's home, you can get much more local immersion and you have more choice, and you can find somewhere cheap and nice as well. So, how about this? When you can successfully do that, you can change people's minds because you are giving them a story that actually serves them better. And again, that requires relating because you need to know what serves them in the first place. So that's what challenge is about, giving them a story that serves them better.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Okay, Jamie, my head is just going ping, ping, ping, ping. Now, so we've related, I'm bringing this back into the workplace. We've related and we've listened to people's, let's say, objections is what I'll call it. And now, from a workplace perspective, if we are making that internal change, whatever the change might be, you know, large or small, it's challenging people's objections with respect and a news story. So we're we're almost kind of reframing people's thinking, also in this respect, then, aren't we? And often, you know, within the workplace, Jamie, you've probably seen it yourself. When this kind of change happens, people, their security needs, as you said, are threatened. And therefore, then I start talking to my colleague next to me, and they start talking to someone else. And then, hello, gossip circle starts, and we've just created this conspiracy theory, which is just super out there. And to push those conspiracy theories, I think it's really valid, like you say, then to listen to them for the purpose of being to challenge them to tell your story, to bring those people on the journey with you, then.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

I'm also thinking, as I'm listening to that, there's a really useful conversation to have when you are going through a change. And I call it the one, two, three conversation. And it's where you sit down with them and you say, like, either you are fully in support of this and you are on board and you are a one, or you're on the fence and you're a two, or you are not in support and you're a three. And just take all emotion out of this conversation and just get really objective. Where are you? If you're one, cool, come with me. If you're three, that's fine. Obviously, you can't come with me, but that's fine. No hard feelings. We'll figure out how to move you to the next phase of your career. If you're two, okay, but you can only be two for a week, for example. And at some point you have to make a decision where you're at. And there's no need to push people, to force people, but to make it really, really clear if this is not for you, that's fine. Don't come with us. Having those kinds of conversations, I think is really important. Taking the emotion out of things, taking judgment out of it, and just letting people decide do I want to go with this or not? And then you have people following you.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yes, we're treating humans like humans, adults like adults now. Hello, very good. While we talk about bringing emotions in the workplace, in certain aspects, it's really important to take those emotions out as well. So, yeah, in relation to the change conversation in this one, two, three conversation, that's beautiful. So I'm gonna reiterate so that with a change conversation, are you on board? Jamie said, I am fully supportive. That's number one. I'm kind of on the fence, that's number two. And that I don't have any support for this change intention. I'm number three. And therefore, then as an individual, when you have a conversation with me in that respect, it gets me thinking on a different tangent now, rather than you know, just ruminating on the crap or whatever I have been ruminating on. It's getting me to thinking about action and how I can take control back and how I can potentially influence as well. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

And going back to what you were saying about gossip, yeah. And that's really common when an organization is going through a change. But I think the reason gossip happens is it fills the gap that uncertainty leaves.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

And in the story habit, as I was researching it, I was reading up a lot about trust. Yeah. And I came up with a definition for trust, which is trust is a belief. If I trust you, it's a belief that I have, that I can predict that you will help or at least not hurt me. And so the two key factors to that predictability. I used to live near a metro station here in Shanghai with loads of pickpockets. And I became really familiar with their faces and I could predict exactly what they're going to do. Like they're going to steal someone's purse. So I can trust that they're going to steal someone's purse, but I don't trust they're going to help me. If I get on a plane, I hope that the pilot comes across as very confident and experienced. That way I'll be more likely to predict that they're going to help me and not hurt me. So if you want trust, you need to become more predictable. I remember I once turned up to a workshop. And at the beginning of the workshop, the HR came to me and said, Really sorry, we're going to have to wait about an hour and a half because we have a really important announcement and a call with our US headquarters. The call with the US headquarters was them announcing that they've acquired another company in China, which did exactly the same thing that the team in the room did. And this team were like, Why have they done that? And they were asking questions to the US leaders and asking, why did you do this? And they were Just dodging the question. And their intentions were very, very unclear. They were purposely hiding their intentions, which makes it impossible to predict what they're going to do. And when you can't predict, there's no trust. And when there's no trust, gossip. Then people start to guess what's going to happen. And that gossip starts to determine how much people trust you and becomes the stories people believe about you. So a really simple way of preventing that is to be really, really transparent about your intentions, which again is really difficult in big organizations when we've got our uh shareholders in uh Wall Street who are telling us to up the margins and uh we see your function is uh the most costly one. And um, yeah, sometimes you just can't be transparent about your intentions. But the result is gossip, that lack of trust and just tension all throughout. So I think predictability is a really important thing for leaders to work on.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Very good point, Jamie. Disclosing a little bit. So when I used to work in corporate land and managing a large HR team, I was very aware of the positional power that I had. And you know, when HR walks in the room, everyone behaves. So of course, you don't really know what's happening on the ground. So I used to have an agenda item in my team meeting of what's happening, what's the gosse? And you know, gossip with clear caveat of we're not bitching or anything. This is what's happening on the ground. And oh my gosh, Jamie, the stuff I learned just from that little agenda item at the end of the team meeting, it really helped me put out fires that luckily didn't happen in the end, and to give you know, leaders the heads up as to okay, you're not managing this well, and this team is responding in this manner. This is what I've heard. You might want to adjust this. And this, Jamie, all honestly comes down to storytelling and the way that the leaders engage with the people that report to them. It's such an important skill.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Yeah, there's several ways that you can become more predictable to kind of better influence the gossip people are gonna be are gonna be creating because people are gonna gossip, they're gonna chat and they're gonna tell their stories. Yeah, and transparency is the best way, I think, because then people know your motives, they can predict what you're gonna do. Relatability, if you are like them, you have the same interests as them, you behave the same way as them, you're like them, so it's easy to predict how I'm gonna behave. So if you're the same as me, more likely to predict the way you're gonna behave. Another one is consistency. And I think this is something I've seen so many leaders just not behave consistently. They have this professional facade that comes out in certain situations. And we all know, you know, you look at politicians and these comedy sketches about politicians and how they behave in public and then out of the public arena, they're just a normal person like us, concerned about stupid, petty things like us. If they don't behave consistently in different situations, that starts to break predictability. I remember one HR director I was working with, she had an issue with consistency. And she was asked to get some coaching because some people in the organization had said they didn't trust her. And as I was sitting down talking with her, she was really, really warm and really nice. I was like, why is she getting this feedback? But then a senior leader walked into the room to talk to her about something, and the moment he walked in, she completely changed her behavior, and then he left and she became more relaxed and warm again. So when you are not behaving consistently, you break trust. That's why we talk a lot about authenticity. It's about showing respect for exactly the same values in all situations and making it very, very clear what you really value and just being yourself. And just on a personal note, I hate wearing suits. I refuse to wear suits, regardless of what company I'm going to, because I it goes against my values. And there was an event I did a few years ago where I thought, okay, I better wear a suit. And I just couldn't be myself throughout the whole event. And I think it really showed to the audience that I'm trying to be someone I'm not. So consistency is what creates authenticity, I think.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Such an important lesson, Jamie, because once you lose the respect of your team, my gosh, it's so so so difficult to regain. And I helped a number of leaders to try and regain that, and that takes a long time, and you have to undo set behaviors, Jamie. We've spoken about relate, challenge. We haven't spoken about resolve in detail just yet, but we've kind of alluded to it. So, with the model of storytelling, I've related to your issues. I am respectfully challenging them now. How do I now resolve? What secret skills do I need, or what's this about resolving?

SPEAKER_00 27:25

So, in a story, you meet a challenge, and then we want to see what happens, how do you overcome the challenge? The resolve part is all about taking action. I call it how leaders shape stories that drive action. And the action part is something that I think a lot of people can think about in a much simpler way. Change or action or behavior change or any kind of change is a journey. There's a destination and there's a pathway there. A lot of the time when we're talking about change, we're talking about the destination. For example, if someone wanted to lose weight, losing weight is the destination. And I need to do more exercise. That's the pathway. But what no one talks about is the next step, the exact, tangible, next physical step that you can take right now. Very few people talk about that. And this is something online services are experts in. Because when you go to the web page of Netflix or Dropbox or whatever online service you use, you don't have a salesperson there telling you stories. You have a really well-designed web page which is designed to get you to take one simple step. Click here. And it's designed to increase the benefits of that step and minimize the cost of that step. And it could just be a one-month subscription. But when you get a one-month subscription, you most likely to continue your subscription. You could become a member. I've been a member of Netflix for years, I don't know how many years now. And it all started with a one-month subscription. And a really important principle of behavior change is it's so much easier to continue doing something than it is to start doing something. And I think a beautiful metaphor is it's like walking through a bamboo forest and you have a pathway going through the bamboo forest. That's your habits, your routine. That's what you're used to. But change is when you take out a machete and you start hacking away at the bamboo right next to you to try and create a new path. And it's really, really, really hard to do that. But once you've already created some of that path, it's a lot easier to continue going down that same path. It's the action of taking out your machete and starting and hacking away, that's the really hard thing. So when it comes to change, when you're talking about you are going to start a whole new role and a whole new department with completely new colleagues, completely new customers, that is really overwhelming. That's a lot of bamboo to hack through. But when you talk about all you're going to do is just pick up the machete. Okay, I've picked up the machete. Now, okay, take one swing at the bamboo. Okay, I did that. Okay, take another swing. Okay, I did that. Okay, this isn't as hard as I was thinking. It's all about getting people to just take that first little step. And I think even in our industry of leadership development, when I look at a lot of training and even coaching, I think this is the thing a lot of people ignore. That little step. What is that little step that people are most likely to take that will get them on the path to that destination? That's what resolve is all about. Identifying that little step that will take everyone in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Jamie, this is the missing piece in so many projects that I've seen fail. Oh my gosh, when I worked in corporate, let's talk to the psychology of change just briefly. I'll add it in the show notes. And I'm linking it to a psychologist called Kubla Ross, who actually specializes in grief. And when we do have a period of change, we are kind of almost grieving for the old world, yeah. So there's five stages of grief that Kubla Ross talks about. There's what is it, denial, bargaining, anger, chaos, and then acceptance or something like that. I should know it, I'll link it. But you're breaking that circuit then with this resolve action, and you're you're getting me to actually take action and you're telling me potentially what to do, what that first easy step is. So you're helping me walk down that path of the bamboo forest and you're holding my hand potentially, you know, in a supportive way.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

I think it's also about getting people to focus on the right stories. I mean, if we take weight loss as an example, because it's an example a lot of people can relate to, and it's an example where a lot of people fail and then blame themselves, but it's just pure psychology why people fail. If I want to lose weight, I should go running. I hate running. And that creates pain. That's a story that I'm telling myself, and that story is going to stop me from taking action. I could maybe learn to love running. I could maybe change my beliefs about running, but that's also pretty hard work. But maybe there is an alternative way of achieving the same goal. Maybe just go for a lovely walk in the park. If there's a way of achieving the same goal, that I have a much more beneficial story for, a story that's going to motivate me to go and do it, then okay, I'm more likely to do that. And if I give a practical example, I used to work for a consulting company and we had this sales system. And the sales team have been using the same sales system for years, and they were used to it. That's their pathway through the bamboo forest. And then director of operations came in and decided we're going to give a new system because we want a new system to collect more data to help us make decisions. And this meant a lot more work for the salespeople. Whereas before they went in a client meeting, they would click here, find client, type notes, boom, done in five minutes. Now they have to click here, click here, click here, click here, and it just takes so much more time. And the way the director of operations introduced it was close down the old system all of a sudden one day and said, Okay, now you have to use the new system. And long story short, that director of operations had to leave several months later because he faced so much hostility from the sales team. But if instead he started by saying, Could you test out this system? Could you let me know what you think about this system? And okay, what are the problems with this system? And just go one step at a time, one tiny step. And when they're ready, then go to the next step and then the next step and reduce all of the fear they have about the potential future steps they have and make this step as easy for them as possible before moving on to the next step. Then it's a lot more likely to be successful. You try to rush people to the destination without focusing on the next step. They're gonna have a lot of fear and a lot of uncertainty, and it's just gonna be a lot of suffering.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

That's it. Leaders, please listen. Jamie, you have given our audience loads and loads of food for thought. I have one final question for you. So you know I'm all about finding constructive, positive ways to change your workplace. Now, if I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way that you, Jamie Dixon, would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 34:46

That's a very, very big question. As I hear that question, I'm thinking of the example of a company I was really impressed with, which is Tencent, a Chinese high-tech company that maybe not everyone has heard of, but I'm pretty sure everyone has encountered. They're responsible for a lot of Chinese social media apps such as QQ and WeChat. I believe they also have a video games branch, which I think makes Fortnite and PUBG and those kind of games. Now, I went to their headquarters in Shenzhen and I was blown away when I walked in because a lot of your listeners have probably heard the reputation of Chinese high-tech companies. They have this 996 culture, work nine to nine, six days a week and a lot more, and sleep in the corridors and so on. And Tencent, when I walked into their offices, everyone was smiling. They were all so happy to be there, they were all energized. I looked around, and when people weren't working, they were having fun, and there were really interesting people to speak to. And it was just really inspiring to be there, actually. And as I was talking to the HR director at lunchtime, I was asking, how? Why is everyone so happy here? What have you done? And they said that if you look at WeChat, their uh social media app, when WeChat first came out in China, one of the main functions was this function called people nearby, where you can click and you can see who's nearby. And why would people want to use that function? Put it quite nicely, uh, looking for dates. And this shows that Tencent, they understand people. They really understand people. They understand exactly what people want, exactly people's needs and just what they want. And they take their expertise that they use in their products and they use it to manage their company and to manage their people. And it's pretty clear they attract people who are going to fit into the culture, people who are happy to be there, but they also do a lot to ensure their people are happy to be there. Well, one thing that really impressed me was they actually demote people if they're not performing in their position. I have honestly never heard of that before. And what a brilliant idea. If you're not performing in your position, then don't drag everyone around you down. If you're getting feedback from all of your team members that you're horrible, then why should you stay in that position? Move you to another position, perhaps, where maybe you won't cause problems. It's all about people and understanding how people work. And what they've done in particular is they've taken all of the knowledge that these psychologists apply to user experience design, to designing social media apps that get us hooked. And they've used it to manage their company. So perhaps you could just summarize that as human-centered design. Manage your companies around human principles.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Boom. That's the new world. Jamie, I could talk to you forever. Our audience are going to love this episode. I think there's future potential episodes to come on various other topics. For today, I'd like to say thank you so much for your time and all of the practical examples that you shared. That's really, really helpful, Jamie.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Thank you very much for having me. It's been great chatting with you again.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

My pleasure. If you want to meet great thinkers who stand against crappy workplace cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams, then you need to join the Ways to Change Your Workplace Facebook group, which is linked in today's show notes. I will see you in the next episode. Bye for now.