83. Reimagine HR with Trina Sunday and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change the Work Data with myself, Bruno Char. I love what I do. I'm a global leadership coach, a consultant, a trainer, a keynote speaker, a podcaster. I help you to develop your leaders, your teams, and I help you to optimize your organizational cultures. I'm here to help you find ways to change your workplace. Why? Because we spend more time in our waking day at work than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. So in this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Get ready! Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah, and I'm really excited to introduce to you today my friend, Trina Sunday, who is based in Perth in Western Australia. She works globally in an organization that she's founded called Reimagine HR. Trina, welcome. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Thank you. I'm great. Really happy to be here. Thanks, Prina.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

My pleasure. Trina, I've got a bit of an intro to you. So this show for our audience is going to be a fun one. The Trina and Prina show today, all about reimagining HR. So without further ado, let me tell you a little bit more about Trina Sunday, my guest. Trina has over 25 years of experience of working in HR, in organizational development, marketing, and events management. Trina's worked globally in the UK, in Asia, and Australia. And she uses her unique global experiences and networks to generate and apply new HR thinking. Yes, Trina. Trina loves working with HR teams and business leaders who want to do things differently. You know while she's on my podcast. Trina has global perspectives and partnerships. A love of Cambodia. So for people who are watching on YouTube, check out the paintings behind Trina. They're all from Cambodia. Tell you about that another time. Trina has a love also of coffee and champagne. And through her business, ReimagineHR, it's all about helping people experience happiness and high performance at work. Trina, we met for a coffee a couple of months ago, and you speak my language, I speak your language. I'm all about ways to change your workplace. You're essentially all about that as well. Welcome. Thank you. It's really nice to have you here. So in our coffee session, we really kicked it off. We have a lot in uh common Trina, but I can't believe in Little Old Perth we haven't even crossed paths prior to then. Okay, right? Unreal. So Trina, welcome. And to begin with, you are also a corporate refugee like myself. You have your own business. Can I ask you why you started a business called Reimagine HR? What's that all about?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

What is that all about? What was I thinking? Um, I think one of the things for me was I came out of a personal experience of in-house HR, where, to be honest, I fatigued out working in toxic corporate environments. As a senior HR manager, I felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall, I was struggling to get buy-in from exec teams, I wasn't being effective. And that can be really taxing on you. It can be kind of soul destroying, right? And so I did end up moving to Cambodia and a bit dramatic, as I said. Not everyone needs to do that to have the revelation that I did, but it put me on a path nine years ago around, you know, there had to be a better way. There was something in the fact that HR, as we were doing it traditionally, was broken. Yeah. And we needed to be able to flip it on its head. And to do that, I needed to remove myself. So I did that about nine years ago. Okay. And I've been leaning in ever since in terms of looking at the way we do or should approach HR and how we can really level up so we can actually have a positive impact on workplaces and workforce. Um, they're not mutually exclusive.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yes. All right, let's get into this, Trina. You have dropped some so many truth bonds there. There had to be a better way in relation to reviewing HR. So, in your opinion, what are some of her biggest challenges facing HR today? And then how do you believe reimagining the field could help address them? Biggest challenges, and what do we reimagine, Trina?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

I think, I think some of the biggest challenges, you know, like recruitment, retention, and motivation is always one of the biggest challenges, right? It always will be, still is. Um, but I think leadership development is also we've got this widening managerial capability gap in organizations and um where we step into leadership. Leadership is so critical for organizations to function. So, um, but also corporate culture. So, like our entire purpose from a HR perspective is to build sustainable, engaged, productive workforce, right? Like we exist to help organizations, to have the people to do the work they do, to make the money, the revenue, and to help the customers that they ultimately help. And so for me, in terms of where HR needs to level up in that space, is to be fully immersed in business, to be fully immersed in business strategy and to have people strategy that enables numbers, essentially at the end of the day. It's about business performance and it's not about driving a HR agenda because for HR people listening, it's it's not about you. Hello. Yeah. It's not about you. Um, and I think that, you know, so for us to be able to kind of, we know that there's lots of things changing with inflation, labor market changes, economic pressures, supply chain demands. I don't hear many HR people talking about those business issues and how their direct HR activity is going to help address them. And that for me is where I see the biggest challenges facing HR is that we are not fully aligned in terms of what's happening in the business to then be making sure that what we're doing is fit for purpose.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Let's get into this. It makes so much sense. You said that HR people or professionals are often not fully aligned. Why do you reckon that is?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

I think there's a combination of things, and I'm really mindful of never wanting to come across as the person that's bashing the HR profession, right? I am the most passionate advocate and supporter of HR. Um, it's why I do what I do, it's why I'm wanting to reimagine HR, right? And I want HR people to feel the impact of what it feels like to be getting runs on the boards and smashing results. Like it feels amazing. Yes. Um, so so I come from that place of helping, right? But I think a lot of it is that from a HR perspective, a lot of people talk about, oh, we don't have a seat at the table. We don't, that does grate on me a little bit because it's kind of it's just a seat. What you don't have necessarily is the credibility where people are gravitating to you because they know you're going to add value to a business problem.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

So even if you don't have a seat at the table, you won't need one because people will be coming to your table. They'll be coming to sit with you and seeking you out because of the knowledge that you have. And so, from a HR perspective, part of the challenge is, especially during COVID and the pandemic, HR teams were leaned up so much that they are even more under-resourced than they were before. They lost specialist skills within their teams that were often some of the people gathering intelligence, um, doing more of the evidence-based analysis, so specialisms in organizational development and things like that. So they lost some of the people that did the legwork to try and, you know, see what trends, patterns, and evidence was out there in terms of what needs to change. But I think a lot of the time being time poor is the thing that I hear the most. I don't have time to network, I don't have time to listen to podcasts. Well, I'm glad that the people listening to this are here. You're winning out life already. Um, you know, but you know, and reading and that kind of thing. It's like, I don't have time, I don't have time, I'm putting out fires, I'm putting, we need to change the way that we work and we need to shift our mindset and create that space for strategy and create the space for building relationships that are going to matter. Um, and without that, we will be staying in our narrow HR lane and not looking at where we need to innovate because we don't know what needs we're responding to.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

100%. HR often don't practice what they preach. You know, HR often talk about the value of development. So you talked about leadership development or people development earlier and creating learning cultures being a key factor in the beautiful words that you use in recruitment, retention, and motivation. So if we're talking development in that respect, but then HR people are often the worst to develop themselves because of the fact that every single thing that you've said. So personal opinion coming in from myself, I think hit you. Yeah, I think HR needs to get off the I'm so important ladder, step down from the balcony, oh, step onto the balcony actually, and actually review everything that's happening and do a bit of a skills gap analysis on themselves, Trina. I remember, and I know you're different in this manner. When we caught up for coffee, you were really, when you worked in corporate, and this is where I really aligned to you, you were really focused on your own development so that you could be the best for the organizations that you were serving when you worked in corporate. I mean, I know many HR people have the best of intentions, and they will they'll be like sheep, you know, they'll read the same thing, they'll learn the same thing, whatever the sexiest thing is right now. Rather than thinking, let's think two years ahead, let's look at our strategy, as you just said. Where are we going as an organization? Where are the gaps? And how can we help this organization and our people to bridge those gaps? So without looking yourself in that manner, how on earth are you going to know what you need to know? That's the other thing as well, Trina.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah, and I think I think that part of that is, and this is where you you do, you can fall into this. I'm too busy, I'm too busy. Well, that's your that's on you.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Like that, that's where we have to. And I've been that person, you know, like I and I think that's the relatability that I bring to the work I do with HR leaders and teams, right? Like I've been, I've been that person. I know, I know where they are. And what I have to share is probably as well that it is really hard. It really is. People go into HR thinking it's this fluffy, easy profession, and it is not. It is, you know, it is really hard, and you are emotionally absorbing other people's stuff all day, every day. And um, it's not easy. And I think that sometimes if you don't have good personal practice and habits and self-awareness, then there's a hardness that can either evolve for you as your coping mechanism, or you take it on so much that you burn out. And so we have a responsibility, and this is where, you know, like my way of coping when I was in the toxic workplace was I threw myself into the soul food that was gonna put the deposits back in my energy bank for all that I was losing in my workplace by the volunteer work I did for the pro bono work I did, for the like getting human connection elsewhere while I tried to navigate how I was gonna be able to show up at work with the energy that I needed to make a difference. Um, but not everyone's built like me. And I know that. And I think that that's where it's about trying to meet people where they're at. But I think the first thing is that understanding what people are bringing to the table and to being stepping out of HR and our own silos that exist in our own team's design, um, to be able to see what's actually happening on the ground. And the busier we are, the less out there we are.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah, yeah, totally so. Yeah, it's a it's a vicious circle, isn't it? Um, I love the fact that you say that as a result of you know being too busy and this too busy culture in HR, there's potentially two ways you can go. You can be, you know, that tough exterior HR person, or you can completely break and burnout will happen. And Trina, I I I joke about it, but it's not actually a joke. I I use this statement. Uh, when I was especially working in generalist HR, I've done generalist and OD, the best of both. Generalist is really frigging hard in that you don't know what's going to come your way. And during that job, I used to say that it's not good for my nervous system, and it really wasn't good for my nervous system, you know. And a lot of HR people have this underlying stress constantly that they're battling with. And I have the utmost respect for HR people because they are trying their best, absolutely so.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah, so we can't. And I think that and I think that part of it is that's where it's offense best defense, right? So you see analogies of being able to store, but the um, you know, because I think that if we had different relationships with our customers, learning we need to think about them as customers, um, that's a whole different thing. Um, but if we have different, if we had established relationships with our customers, that is what's going to give us the grace to push back, to say no, to empower managers. Um, you know, but at the same time, we have to look at how we are using, you know, we've got to use policy wisely. So HR is very process-oriented, right? And policies in their own structure can essentially work to undermine trust and disempower leaders. We become so prescriptive about what a leader can and can't do or a manager can and can't do, um, that we've taken all of the thinking out of it, not given them that adult responsibility. And then we wonder why they're avoiding making a decision and running to us when something's really difficult with an employee. You know, like it's we've got to decide how we're showing up in that space. And I and I see a lot of confusion in that. And I think there's a lot of leaning in to do in terms of how we're showing up from that perspective.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Trina, some of our HR audience who are listening are going to be freaking out with what you just said. Policies undermine trust. I do. You heard it here first. We heard it here first by Trina Sunday. Trina, so a lot of HR people rely on policies, procedures, guidelines, all of the, you know, that lingo as their security blanket, as their mechanism to ensure things are getting done. In reality, stuff's not getting done anyway. And no one's reading them. No one's reading them. What do you say to those HR people? And you know, a generalist statement here a lot of HR people need that control because a policy is control, a code of conduct is control, let's say, for example, and then Trina has messed up. Trina, you you know, you didn't we'll punish you. It's a punitive thing, really, a policy or a code of conduct or whatever. Um, what do you say though to those people who really rely on all of these policies, procedures? What's the alternative here, Trina?

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Because I think I think there's two things with it, right? So I think from the reason HR often have lots of policies, yeah, also because HR are responding and existing also in the culture of an organization that also requires those things. So one thing I'd want to call out is it's not just that HR people generally, I would say, do not like policies. They're annoying to write, they're annoying to refine, to update. We know that they're not actually hitting the mark, you know, like, you know, and so sometimes HRTons can be lazy with it, right? And we get examples from someone else. We cut and paste stuff. It's my it's it's something that um is very worrying to me because you're essentially picking up someone else's instrument and trying and apply it in a different context. And that's that means you've missed the mark straight away because it's not going to be fit for purpose. But I think so. A lot of the time HR are building it not because they are policy lovers, they're not. They're not. But the organization they are in is often risk adverse, avoidant, blame-oriented. And so an organization has an appetite for governance and to have policies so they can wheel them out to defend themselves. Yeah. Employees know this. Employees are not stupid. Our employees are really smart people, and that's why we have this tension and reputation issue, right? Because we're not being straight with people. And I think that's what's been part of my success in that space is being really straight up with people and vulnerable in terms of what I can't. But I so I think in terms of what HR people should do, to your question, I think it is about um taking a moment to have the reality check and doing that audit of um why do we have them?

unknown 18:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Like if we're honest with ourselves, you know, like in an ideal world for me, you'd abolish all policies and you just have this really interactive, online, um, not a handbook because that's an evil term in the HR world, but you know, something that helps people navigate the people stuff, something practical within an organization and have it in language that actually resonates with people. Um, you know, and I think if, and it has to be really tech savvy, it has to be able to exist, you know, noting that not everyone's on tech, right? And this is part of the challenge. We have one size fits all solutions for everybody. Um, so I think I think it's the why do we have it? And if the why is because it's about compliance, then let's be really honest about that. And if anything exists over a page to say, these are the rules, this is how where the legislation is, this is how it's gonna play out for you. Talk to us if you want to know more. It doesn't take more than a page to tell someone how we're gonna weaponize a policy against them. Don't no write 10 pages of fluff to try and hide and then communicate nothing to anybody. It's not helpful, it adds no value. And um, I think there's an honest conversation HR teams need to have with themselves around that. But then the next step is how do they influence that if their organization has that culture that insists on having this really prescriptive, rule-oriented, process-oriented approach? That's where the difficulty is, and that's where you know we have to reshape and reimagine how HR is showing up for them to be effective in influencing that.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Yeah, because it's really you're talking about trust of the whole organization, Trina. And I remember when I used to work in corporate, uh, I used to say to everyone, including the executive, that I am the employee advocate for all. I'm not your puppet, you know, just for the executive. I'm here for everyone. And with some organizations that went down well, with some it didn't, and I know it was time to move on. Um, and I think so, from a HR perspective, leading with your head, leading with your heart, and leading with your backbone as well, and calling out the bullshit when you need to is really important, Rina, because from a HR perspective, yes, you have such an obligation to the organization from a legal perspective, but now there's psychological safety, there's so much more. You know, I've talked at length about organizational cultures changing from that kind of cognitive culture to a more emotional, feelings-based culture as well. This is what people want. So HR needs to evolve in that manner as well, and we need to reimagine HR in that manner also, using your beautiful words, Trina. Um can you describe to me what your vision of the HR function should look like in the future, Trina? Let's step ahead in time. How will it differ from now?

SPEAKER_01 20:47

So I think for me, we currently have this model that's built on, you know, a lot of um Dave Ulrich's research, and I have a lot of respect for Dave Ulrich. I met him, got to spend time with him in Cambodia, and it was a gift, and he has a phenomenal engine room behind him in terms of research that's built our HR existing model that most people use, where we have shared services that do, you know, centrally technology-enabled kind of HR operational activity. We've got HR business partners who are working with the business to, you know, get things done. And then generally we've got these centers of excellence, you know, where you've got specialists that do certain things. None of that language resonates with anybody in your organization. So that's the first thing. So none of the titles, none of the lingo, the HR speak in itself alienates us from our people. So, you know, I would like to see the fact that we would have more flexible. My vision for HR is that we have more flexible HR teams. Yeah. And that, you know, that we shift it around so that we're responding to what's happening in organizations. So you might have a head of HR, you know, but then you would have a strategic talent lead. That person's Is ultimately around gathering human intelligence. It's about strongly investing in what's happening in the business. It's understanding what's happening. Their whole job is around leading strategy and understanding what's happening on the ground in the business to intuitively know where that alignment is. But then it's also then having problem solvers. And this is where for me it's probably a blur. Like, so in our structures, we need to have problem solvers. Yeah. And a lot of that for me is a combination of a HR tech team. Yeah. And our people relations managers. But not necessarily sitting there with a portfolio of clients in our organization that we're partnering with, that then means we do all their admin. That's not value adding. That's what we've built for ourselves because we have interpreted customer service to mean we're going to do things for you to make your life easier, as opposed to changing what we need done.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yes, Trina.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Make your life easier. And so it's about looking at that. And then you'll always have shared services, but there's going to be this next gen of centers of excellence that are coming and emerging, and we're not fast enough. I have no idea where I heard it and I'd have to look. But I read something where, you know, HR is four times slower at innovating than any other corporate function. Four times. I'll stay and corrected on that if I can't find my source. But it's like, but even when you look at it, I hear it. So regardless where the source is, I hear it. And I think about my profession and what's happened in the last 20 plus years that I've been in HR, and it seems true. Yeah. I've seen the advancements in the finance space. I've seen, you know, IT go from information services where we managed help desk and everything, and it's to responding to the digitization globally that's impacting workplaces. And now ICT and chief digital officers, you know, paving the way for how we change the way we do business and interact with consumers and employees. So it's changed. We haven't changed with such rapid pace. And so I think, you know, my vision for HR is to not be um so adverse to the things that we don't know anything about.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yes. Let go.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

We've got to lean in and say, because there's lots of HR people that are not tech, you know, we think about tech and we think about HR information systems. That's not the tech that's shifting the needle here. Um, and there's fearful conversations that I hear and have all the time around AI, and it's gonna touch all of our jobs. And so there's this risk aversion that is stopping us from going all in in terms of exploring what needs to happen. And we need that flexibility in our structure so that our people work inherently together. We're under that shared service, business partner, OD, centers of excellence type model, there's always been a tension in the last 15 years acutely that I've been in senior management OD roles, I've noticed the tension. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Um bit more to that.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Well, I think a lot of the time what we've built in our jobs is kind of, you know, OD, this is gross simplification, but you know, like if OD is the evidence-based area, typically, they would be the specialist and they design things. Yeah. They design things that then HR business partners have to implement. Yeah. HR business partners often have phenomenal intel, they're people relations managers, and that intel doesn't flow into the design. Yeah. They know that something's about to be rolled out that their customers are not going to be happy with. And so what we have is this internal tension in HR because of the way we've approached how we're designing things. And so I think that whole thing needs to be flipped on its head. And it's where, you know, for me, I come into um, you know, part of me reimagining HR is having a marketing mindset. Yeah. And part of that is it's about design thinking. Yeah. And it's about thinking about HR as products and not services.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

And, you know, and so there wouldn't be a one size fits all in that, there wouldn't be a so they're inherently, we have to understand what the needs are of people and leaders before we design anything. And often the centers of excellence are the furthest removed from the day-to-day operations of the business. So if we don't purposefully shift how we approach our design of policies, practices, forms, systems, a lot, the bureaucracy that we're gonna throw at people, then we're failing before we even start.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Trina, you make some really poignant points here. And you know, one of the reasons I uh so my background is in organizational development. I love it. That's what I'm all about, you know, uh focusing on the proactive side of HR. But I, in my career, was really mindful of the fact of not having the other side of experience, which is why I took that deep dive into the generalist HR. And then you deal with industrial relations, all of all the shit that comes with it as well, all of the people problems, which, oh my gosh, was not good for my nervous system, but I did it nonetheless. Because I think a lot of HR practitioners, whether you're in the generalist space or whether you're in a specialist space, you don't, like you said, have that overall experience. And I remember, Trina, when I used to work internally, especially within organizational development, in every single job, I used to ensure that I had the best relationship with the industrial relations team or the business partners, whatever you want to call the generalists, because it's that cross-fertilization that you're talking to, which was the missing piece. And I remember in our team meetings, I would ask all of the curly questions as to, well, can you tell me all of the cases you're working on? Because I need to know about this shit because I'm working on the proactive arm of you know the business. And without you sharing that intel with me, I know it's highly classified, you don't have to share names with me, but tell me the quirks of what's happening so that we can for future-proof our business essentially, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

I think there's something in there. I just had a reaction to the sharing with me, so I'm just gonna share it with you, my reaction and what it was. So um I'm seeing more and more as well, this erosion of trust within HR, where we have this lack of sharing of information across the bow. And I there's a fundamental symptom and clue in that that HR teams need to unpack, and HR leaders specifically need to unpack. Because if you have one team in your HR team that does not trust another part of your HR team to have information, now we know that there is some privacy type thing, but we are all in HR, right? We should all be bound by the same respect of people's privacy and confidentiality, and that it has to have purpose to know things. It's not about gossip, it's perp, it's understanding things with purpose. And so I think I think there's something in that in terms of kind of, you know, there should be a greater openness in terms of what's happening, I believe, in terms of HR. Um, but I think it also comes from that, from an OD perspective, again, the market room is like, why isn't the OD team running focus groups with people in the organization, with a HR business partner in the room? So we can have cross-learning in terms of different approaches and noting that marketing mindset is not inherently in HR. So that's part of the things that I'm trying to shape, right? But you know, that there's so much um um valuable feedback that comes out of from the conversation. Because if you only look at it through the lens of the HR business partner, the truth telling and the storytelling, not maliciously, but it's different. Because when when they are listening to a manager or an employee or, you know, thinking about kind of all the cases or things that are happening, they're always only looking at either ends of the spectrum. We're not getting the masses. So the people that are often on our radar, the people that are really awesome or really average.

unknown 30:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

That's not representative of. So what are we doing to build our um, you know, our bridge to the people that matter? So we can understand how are we going to poll employees to kind of get their intel around or their insights into what it is we're even thinking of doing before we start designing it. We put so much effort into something, then we get so far down the track, it's like, well, we've invested in too much now. The HR leaders like, yeah, and we've paid the consultant or we've run all these sessions we can't pull out now. And so we keep moving forward, even though we slowly, as we get further ahead, know that this is probably not going to be the thing that's going to address what we thought it was going to address. And so that's where you know, design thinking has that iterative process. It's about sprints, it's about get it out fast, make things happen. If you're designing something, it takes you 18 months to get there.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Almost change. You missed the mark. You're talking about you're you're truly talking now about HR innovating. And for people who don't understand design thinking or human-centered design, it's um how can we describe it best? HR often do things that impose upon the business rather than the other way around. So human-centered design is exactly what it says, it is based on the human needs, so our employees' needs. Hey, what does Trina need in her workplace? And let's design something specifically for that person's need or that, you know, role profile's needs, or whatever. So if we've got people who are listening who are not in HR, please, please, please share this episode with your HR people because there's so many gold nuggets that Trina has shared. Trina, I want to step back a little bit, and throughout this conversation, you've been talking about some really important points about skills development for HR people, right? So, first off, you talked about the too busy culture, I'm so time poor, at time management might be an issue, you know. Hello, HR people, review your time management. Um, important skills as well, uh, you've been talking to strategic thinking, influencing skills, being intuitive, being a problem solver. So, Trina, if there's people listening to this thinking, oh my god, I want to get into HR, but I don't know where to begin, or if there's people in HR who are tuning into this who are thinking, where do I even begin to develop myself and to change myself and my echo chamber? Apart from what I've said, have we missed anything for the evolution of the HR person, first off?

SPEAKER_01 32:37

I think so. From a personal, from a personal level, I think it it's absolutely emotional intelligence. Um, and I don't mean that in a fluffy way. I believe that HR people deliberately need to be constantly and purposely leveling up their emotional intelligence, and it helps us in our whole life, right? Yes, every human relationship that we have, the ones that matter most are the ones at home generally, not the ones in our workplace. Not that we don't love our colleagues, but you know, a lot of you know, jobs can come and go, but you know, there's people in our life who are grounded, and you know, people can only benefit from enhanced um emotional intelligence. And I feel like the more heightened emotional intelligence from a personal development perspective, the more in tune that HR people would be to the empathy first that's needed for human-centered design. Um, you know, and because human-centered design and that empathy is not like giving everybody everything that they want. That's the misunderstanding, right? So what has to be balanced with that, which is more a skill than a personal development, is the commercial business acumen. Like if HR people cannot speak the language of the business, and if HR people are cannot be immersed in the numbers of a business to understand the impact on market share, to understand the impact on profit um revenue, what that's going to mean in terms of delivery, you're never going to be invited into a business conversation. So we talk about, oh, we wish they'd involved us early in that restructure conversation. And, you know, it's like the business decisions. So unless you're going to bring some business um insights into the conversation, then you're going to be sought out later as the person that's going to implement whatever business decision was made. That's surreal. So I think, yeah, you know, and so I think, but the other thing from a personal perspective, I think this crosses every industry as well. I'm a really big advocate for all HR leaders, especially tell me they don't have time for networking.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

I have to call BS on that. And I think from a personal development perspective, you have a responsibility in the job that you have to build productive relationships that are going to help you be influential. Um, but also just from a personal development perspective. So I don't know if you have talked about before or looked at the concept of having a personal board. And I talk about this with people that come into my programs and that kind of thing, my coaching programs. But it's like you need to have a personal board of people where you've got your peer, you know, you've got your career coach, you've got your mentor, you've got your connector, the one that's going to connect you, your wellness coach, like especially for HR people. I find if you don't have, if you don't have that personal board, then you're not surrounding yourself with people that are going to call you on your behavior, help you when times are tough, um, look at how you're going to navigate your trajectory in the HR profession. You know, these things take deliberate intention to bring them to life. And I think from a personal development perspective, that's where I'd be leaning in. If we look at competencies more on the knowledge-based side, um, I talked about commercial or business acumen, but for me, tech savvy, HR are not known for being tech savvy. No. And that is an issue. Yeah. Um, that is a really big issue in the digitization that we have and in, you know, design thinking as much as anything else is going to be the thing that would make or break the effectiveness of hybrid workplaces. Our tech is also going to make or break hybrid work, and hybrid's not going away. So it's like, so, and there's opportunities. So there's opportunities for us to innovate using AI. And I think that um, because thing that one of the things that I'm seeing as an issue is um the ethics issue that is coming up in terms of data, yes, and and how we look at that, and whether it's chat, you know, chat GPT or, you know, like we've essentially got all these where we're trying to be efficient, how is some of that AI going to just screen, screen out individualism in our workplaces and give us a whole heap of homogeneous same same, um, which goes against kind of you know, everything that we know that diversity brings, you know, more more depth and power to an organization. And I think that's the other space, like psychological safety is one, especially where there's a whole system, especially here in Australia, where we are with legislative change, and you know, the the whole system is changing. And I don't know that HR have necessarily grasped how significant the change is from the way of working to a positive duty model, where you have a responsibility to prevent harassment in the workplace, you know, the respect at work prevent you have a responsibility and an accountability to protect people. The safety model is completely different to the reactive reality of sexual harassment or bullying or, you know, where we respond to incidents. And I don't think that's been grasped. And then the other area that I think we need to be leaning into, culture I've already mentioned, but I feel like HR leaders don't really understand the complexity of culture. No. And it's not values and behaviors. And I've talked about this a lot recently for if people wanting to get some insights from my the world, according to Trina. But I think, you know, like there's definitely, you know, we need to be culture experts and to understand what all the levers are that can be pulled to drive culture change. Yeah. And if we've got exec teams that are not living and breathing the culture that we think needs to go, then HR teams can do some culture by stealth. And I think it's not a cop-out. We don't just give, you know, like it's we need to decide where we're going to step in and look at our own practices and policies. Look at recruitment, look at performance management, look at how we reward people, look at how we communicate with people. Yeah. Um, you know, and so I think in that space, and then for me, the antidote to, you know, toxic cultures is inclusivity. And I hear a lot of HR teams talking about DEI in the way that we talked about it kind of 15 years ago. Yeah. And I think there's a lot in terms of inclusivity and belonging, and that is an extension of culture. Um, because I do. I have HR people in my network that come into work that I do with different teams who say I don't have time for all that DEI stuff.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

That's a really big problem.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

It's a concern.

unknown 39:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

And and I think, but I don't think again that it's the malicious part.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

No.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

I think it's a lack of understanding about culture. I think it's a lack of understanding around inclusivity and designing equitable organizations. And there's ways of designing equitable organizations. And Aubrey Blunch from Culture Amp is an amazing person to listen to, talk about that. Um, but you know, there's lots. But this is the thing. Like if you were a HR leader or a HR professional listening to this, you'd be like, oh my God, that's a lot. And this is where I feel like it's because there's so much that we've neglected, it now feels like there's all these things we have to level up in all at the same time. And I feel like that's overwhelming people.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Got you. It's a lot, but it's doable as well, Trina. I mean, yourself taught, you know, beyond whatever your workplace taught you, you learnt stuff yourself. Same here. So, first off, you've got to be a lifelong learner. You have so much resources available to you now, thanks to technology. Listen to this podcast. We're on episode God knows what right now, you know, nearly a hundred now, Trina. And they're all about ways to change your workplace from all sorts of topics, you know, which are really going to help HR people. You really talked about learning about culture. HR people, you know, they're called people in culture, but they don't know how to manage culture. There's an irony in that, you know, rename or learn about how to manage culture. And from that perspective, I think when HR people are thinking about organizational culture, they tend to get overwhelmed once again. And let's outsource this problem. When you outsource that kind of work, you have no credibility or ownership over it, which is the issue that I had when I used to work internally, Trina. So for people who want to learn more about organizational culture, don't spend a heap of money. What I'll do in our show notes, I'm going to put Trina's details. I have a free culture audit tool. Do it yourself and then see what you need to spend money on. You know, like do some work yourself and then do a bit of a professional SWOT, you know, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats activity on yourself. I have a really cool tool. What I'll do is in the show notes, I'll add that for our audience as well, Trina, because I think all of that, it's all doable. So the intention of this podcast episode is not to overwhelm HR people whatsoever, but is to give them the right tools and the right kind of people to connect with and learn from to become better and to expand your echo chamber first and foremost. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

And I think that it's it's trying to find the people as well that can fast track getting you information that you need. Like, you know, the resource hub that I'm creating on my website, which is for HR people, right? Like this is my pocket. This is I'm not doing I'm not doing leadership or exec coaching for everybody else, I do it for HR leaders. I'm not doing team development for the masses, I do it for HR teams. Like, because there's a fluidity that comes from being able to understand the context people are working in, yeah, to then for me to be able to know what they need. But the resource hub I'm, you know, that I'm building is because I know that people don't have the time. So I want to be able to cut through some of that and say, listen to this one, like meet read this person, or you know, it's for some straight shooter, right? So I'm gonna say this is all a bit fluffy, you're not gonna learn anything new. Um, but here's something that you really might want to lean into because it's gonna change the way you think. And I think it's about trying to find the resources like yours or like mine, but um, but also in terms of that personal board that I was talking about and those networks. Even if you just focused on that and used the networking that you have to fill the gaps, because one of the biggest risks and pitfalls that I see HR face is that we give advice when we're not coming from a confident informed position. Yep. Because we don't want to look like we don't know what we're talking about. And so much often we don't know what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And that can be really dangerous because every scenario is different. Yeah. Um, and you know, we say, you know, like, oh, you know, I'm not too shy to say, Oh, I don't know the answer to that, but I'll find out and come back. And people think that that's really superficial. I'm like, no, no, that's you know, but people have to believe in that. But again, the culture. Of an organization needs to allow that. We'll create a space that either tolerates mistakes and failures or doesn't. And for HR people, that risk profile looks very different because of legislative consequence, potentially, or reputational consequence to an organization. And so that we can get stuck in the fear of feeling like we need to know. And I think that you know we need to be able to kind of look at that. So these resources, connections, being able to draw on, it can be really lonely to be a HR person at the top.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Because you can't tell everybody all the things that are happening. So you either need to find those confidence and create that kind of peer circle, a trusted peer circle. So you can vent, you've got the cathartic, you know, relief that comes from it, but also you find out what other people have done, their lived and learned experiences. So if you don't have it, you can fill that gap with the people that you surround yourself with.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Yeah. Boom. I've actually got an episode on your personal board. I'll link to that in the show notes as well, Trina. I'm glad I'm talking with you. You know, we we uh share a lot of similar sentiments, Trina, including your intention is to make the workplace a better place. Completely so, right? So my final, my final question to you, Trina Sunday. If I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way you would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_01 45:25

Magic wand. Do you for me? I think it would be um self-managed teams. So it's controversial because all of our leaders' um jobs are on the line if we move to this. But for me, you know, like even done on a grand scale in an organization, like a self-managed team basically is you're stripping out layers of leadership from your organization, right? Groups of employees in your organization who share responsibility for planning and executing their work without supervision or a manager. Um, you know, and under that model, they have to take ownership and accountability of what they do. Like it has people forced to work together. They have to make commitments to each other that have to stack up. There's a different, you know, how they they've got ownership of their workflow, their processes, and everything in between. Um, and I think because a lot of the times our traditional hierarchy in an organization, that org chart, what a young graduate said to me once, oh, you mean that power tree? And I think that's really important in that, because it's like that's how that picture's perceived. Now I know that it's built around clarity, right? But clarity for what? It just clarifies who's signing off a form for some stuff. Yeah. And it puts us in silos, right? Where if you had to mobilize and respond to an organizational problem, why don't you build a self-managed team where we get all the people together from wherever they are in the organization and say you're accountable for solving this problem? And we saw it happen in COVID. Some organizations did we've got this massive financial issues. Um, we're gonna put a self-managed team together for them to figure out how and who and how we're gonna cut significant salary expenditure. Now, the key thing about a self-managed team, right, is that you have to then follow through as whoever there's always going to be some senior player that still exists somewhere above. The discomfort that then comes from it's only true empowerment if that leader rolls with the self-managed team's decision. Oh, yeah. Even if they don't agree with it. It's not empowerment if you get someone else to work something off, and then it's like, oh, but you need to come and sign it off. Oh, I'm not sure about that, and they do it a different way. That there's no empowerment in that. Your truest clue around whether you've empowered your team is when you let them do something that you wouldn't do. Trust. It's trust, and it's trusting that the people closest to the work generally know the best way of doing the work.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Drop the mic, Trina Sunday. You were talking about treating adults like adults, and then what's I think it's Simon Sinek, uh, purpose, autonomy, and mastery. Give that to your people and watch them shine. Yes, there's accountability needed and involved as well. Yeah, but Trina.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

And there's a lot that's required to transition to that model, but it it challenges everything to do with where the culture might get us stuck, right? And so it allows us people feel more engaged, they feel more valued, um, you know, it enhances productivity, it sparks innovation. You know, there's opportunity for personal and professional growth because you're working with people you don't normally work with. You know, it can even reduce manager burnout because we're taking, we're spreading the load across more people. So now there are dangers with inequity and not adequately supporting a transition to that. So, but let's not let reality get in the way of my magical wand moment. So, you know, I think that would change our workplaces for the better.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Trina Sunday, I cannot thank you enough. Let's reimagine HR together, everybody. Listen to this episode, pass it on to your HR people. Come on, come on. And in the show notes, I'm gonna add a heap of extra material. Uh, go forth and prosper. Until the next time. Trina, thank you so much. Thanks, Prina. If you like this episode, check out the show notes and sign up for my newsletter. That will help your workplace to be less shitty. It's full of novel ideas, good food for thought. And if you like this episode, pass it on to at least two people who will benefit. That's your good deed done for the day. Also, remember to subscribe to the Ways to Change Your Workplace Podcast via your podcast provider. And I will see you in the next episode.