107. Bad Meetings are OUR Fault! Chris Fenning and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Doing this podcast, you can expect to mix off interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Get ready.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

Hello, and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with myself, Prina Shah. And I'm very excited to be introducing you today to my guest, who is Chris Fenning, all the way from the Netherlands. Hello, Chris. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Hi, Prina. I am well. Thank you. I'm very well.

SPEAKER_05 1:22

It's so good to have you here, Chris. Chris, I'm going to do a little bit of an introduction to you. So allow me, if I may. Yeah. Chris Fenning, all the way from the Netherlands. Makes it easier for us to communicate at work. And gosh, don't we need it? His simple methods help experts talk to non-experts, teams to talk to executives, and so much more. Chris's practical methods are used in organizations like Google and NATO and have appeared in the Harvard Business Review. Chris is also the author of multiple award-winning winning books that have been translated into 15 languages. So I'll put all of Chris's details in the show notes. And for people who are watching this conversation on YouTube, all of Chris's books are back there, Chris. But Chris, we're going to be talking about, I really want to pick your brain about how bad meetings in the workplace are our fault. But before we even get into that, Chris, I want to ask you this big question. What do you do and why do you do it, Chris?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Uh well, yes, and bad meetings are our fault. I'm really looking forward to explaining why, and hopefully in a positive way for everyone who is listening. That is not a Debbie Downer situation here.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

So what do I do and why do I do it? I, if you know anybody at work who can't communicate as well as they should or need to, I help those people communicate better. And as you said, that could be someone who struggles to communicate with an executive, an expert who struggles to get their message across to another team that they have to work with. In all of those situations, I provide practical, simple methods and frameworks that help people get their message across.

SPEAKER_05 3:11

Beautiful. And so succinctly said, Chris. Um, Chris, with a lot of the work that I do and a lot of the misunderstandings I come across in, you know, uh helping teams to become even better, the number one issue I can pinpoint, I'd say probably 70, 80% of the time, miscommunication. It really falls to that. So I'm so pleased to be having you here today. Um the use of our time at work, Chris, is often not efficient due to meeting overload. So let's get into it. Why? Why is that in your expert opinion? What's happening here, Chris?

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Well, one of the reasons this happens is it's easy to blame other people. Often, if there's bad meetings, we will say they don't prepare, or there's meeting overload because they arrange useless meetings. And a lot of our impression is it's their fault. And there are two reasons that meet meetings cause overload that aren't discussed. Partly because we we constantly project, which is a very human thing to do. One reason that we do this is we're not trained to have and run effective meetings. We're just expected that we'll do it well. So we turn up at work at out of graduation or or straight from school, if that's the path that people have taken, and we're expected to know how to communicate and know how to run meetings. And the second thing is we believe that the success of a meeting is someone else's responsibility, particularly the responsibility of the person running it. Or if you're the one running the meeting and it goes badly, you think it's the responsibility of the participants. And in fact, it's all of our responsibilities. Whether or not we are the leader of a meeting, whether we are a bit player and we've just been invited and we're sitting on the edges, every one of us can and should take responsibility for making meetings as effective as they can be.

SPEAKER_05 5:11

Okay, Chris. I'm gonna I'm gonna step back a little bit even. From your expert opinion, and you know, I I love the fact that you said that we're not even trained to hold meetings well, but forget that, we aren't even trained on the basics of communication skills which relate to the workplace. So stepping back altogether and this whole concept of you know meetings, from a societal perspective, you know, and life perspective, meetings are not really the norm, generally speaking. You know, um, I'm just thinking from a family perspective, if there's a family meeting held, it's like, oh, something's happening here, something big. Oh, yeah, yes, yeah, the idea of a family meeting.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

It's gonna know something, something significant. You might be hoping you're going to Disneyland, but actually, we all know it's a bad thing.

SPEAKER_05 5:59

Exactly, exactly. So stepping back from that, you know, societal or philosophical perspective, imposing meetings within the workplace in order to use our time effectively, best of intentions, right? What are your thoughts on that? I've just dropped uh an idea.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

That's okay. Uh we don't, you're right, we're not trained or taught. And but I mean that in both an academic way, we don't go through school and have lessons about meetings, and we don't really have lessons about communicating in a general sense. And we're also trained through our entire lives to interact socially.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Because everything we do forms our habits, informs our actions, our intentions, and the techniques that we use. And from a very young age, in fact, from when we're born, we learn by observing the people around us in social situations.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

We then learn through school, which is a very artificial environment where you're sitting and receiving information. Yes, there are different ways of schooling, but the majority of it is still by rote. So you receive information and then you give it back when you're asked questions. There's very little free-flowing communication. So you've either got social or incredibly structured, but not like work. And then we get thrust into a workplace where we actually have we have quite a lot of power to be able to organize these meetings and pull people together, either using positional authority or using the authority that comes with, I'm working on this big project. So use the project's authority to bring people in and have these meetings. And we're just not equipped for it because it's so unlike 99% or more of our experience in life up to that point.

SPEAKER_05 7:51

Yeah, absolutely. So and Chris, that completely takes me back to my first ever graduate job, which was in the UK, British Telecom, amazing, amazing experience on a graduate program. And it was across different parts of HR, which was, you know, the best learning. And I had one manager who was very out there, and I'm a thinker, you know, I need to take my time and digest information. And I was in many meetings with her and the whole team. I remember one, she pulled me aside and said, she said to me, Prina, you don't really contribute to meetings. And my response to her was, Well, I need to think about stuff. I can't just bl there and then. That was, you know, 20-something year old Prina. I've learned to freestyle and work, work on the go now. But people need different ways of processing information as well. And meetings are very generic to the, and I'm really generalizing here, Chris. Correct me if I'm wrong. Meetings from a workplace perspective are very generalized to the quick thinker or the extrovert, let's say.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Yes. Yes, they are. Uh meetings that aren't planned for a uh a variety of different ways of thinking fall exactly into the category that you just described. And that one of the things we can do about that, if I can take a moment to uh to to give a possible solution and give some hope to people out there. One of the things we can do is whenever we are planning a meeting, we need to think about the general topic, the purpose of the meeting, and then the specific output that it will produce.

SPEAKER_05 9:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

And for example, let's say we are we're facing an issue on a particular piece of work that you and I are doing, Prina. And I want us to get together with our teams. The purpose is to come up with four or five different solutions to this problem. And the output will be a list of four or five different solutions.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

So we know exactly what that meeting is going to be about. I then need to communicate that to you and all the attendees.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

That triggers you to begin thinking of what are my ideas. Because if my invite says we're going to produce this thing, the reason we're here is to produce a list, and at the end we will have an actual list, that begins to give you some time to process.

SPEAKER_05 10:18

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Oh, sorry, I've got two more points on this one. The first is as the leader of the session, I can then work out whether or not to ask people to do work before the meeting. If we're coming up with ideas, does everyone know what the problem is? And if they already do, they can come prepared and I can ask them to do that. And if they don't know what the situation is, we're going to spend some of the meeting talking about that. Then I need to allow for the fact there might not be a complete output by the end. There may need to be a let's come up with a draft list, and then everyone gets 24 hours to provide extra answers. And that can account for those different learning styles.

SPEAKER_05 11:04

Okay, beautiful. Chris, we're leaning more towards now thinking and working like a consultant, so to speak. So you have your own business, I have my own business. This is the way that we operate with our clients. Let's say I was out this morning, I had a discovery meeting with a client, and I ran it in exactly the way. So I knew what the topic was, the purpose, I sent an agenda through, and I sent through the ideal outcome that we want at the end of the meeting so that you know you can heard the cats effectively, so to speak. Um so think more like a consultant. Are there any other tips? This is really and the Chris, what I really enjoy about your work is that you're super practical, right? So are there any practical things? So as the leader of the session, you've made some really important points here. We need to know the capacity and capability, I guess, of the people, let's say if it's our team that we've got a meeting with, we need to decide on that and decide upon pre-work. So if you know, graduate prena needed to think, then really give me extra time to think. So give me that pre-work. And the second point in the meeting, if people don't have the information or whatever, allow space and time to give context and that information and be okay with the fact that you might not have the complete output, but you're still on a much better track than you would have been otherwise if it hadn't been planned in this manner. Am I right there?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yes. Yes. And the output, the output is key without a defined output. And I'm very specific in that word. It's not outcome and it's different from purpose, but the output is something that you can write down or print out. It's a decision, it's a list, it's an action plan, it's a clear next step. It might be a vague next step, but it's still something that you could write down or print out. And the reason the output is critical is if you don't have that, how can you tell whether a meeting was a success? If you don't have a clear output, how can you measure progress through the meeting towards it?

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

And here's something for all the people who are invited to meetings but don't lead them, which is the majority. Many of us get invited to other people's meetings.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

You, me, everyone has the ability to improve a meeting if they focus on topic, purpose, and output. And here's here's how that works when you receive a meeting invitation, if you cannot see what the topic, purpose, and output is, ask. You will improve your own understanding of the meeting. And hopefully, and you can even suggest this, the person arranging the meeting can include that in the invite so that everybody else knows it before the meeting. Secondly, at the beginning of the meeting, within one at most two minutes of starting a meeting, if you as a participant don't know what the topic, the purpose, and the output are, ask. That is a hand in the air moment. And we don't you don't have to do it in a brash way. It's not, oh, you haven't told me what this is about. That's a terrible way, terrible way to go about that. You can put your hand in the air and say, I'm sorry if I missed something, or um, I'd just like to clarify. I just want to make sure that I understand what we're doing today, and then you uh summarize what you believe the topic, purpose, and output are, and you look for confirmation or clarification from the person or people arranging that meeting.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

First two minutes of a meeting. Make sure that you know what the topic, the purpose, and the output are. Because if you don't know, how can you meaningfully contribute? How do you know if you should even be there? And how are you going to measure, track, and drive progress towards producing the output and in that meeting?

SPEAKER_05 15:05

And you are, you are, I think you're singing to many people's ears here now, Chris, because a lot of the time what I hear from people is, I was invited to this meeting and I really shouldn't have been. That was such a waste of my time. So by asking topic, purpose, and output, ideally beforehand if you can, wonderful, but within the first two minutes, even, then you can kind of self-eliminate if you don't need to be there as well. You can politely exit through the gift shop, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Exactly. I love that. Yes. And that is something that we are responsible and accountable for. We can self-eliminate. Now, I we do have to make a comment that yes, there are it can be uncomfortable, there's power plays when my boss invited me and so on. It if you get the topic purpose and output, and then you think, well, I don't contribute to this at all, that is not the time to just get up and walk out of the room or turn your turn your camera off or disengage. It is the time to ask a question.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Because someone invited you to that meeting, they may have, I would hope, they may have a very good reason for including you. So again, you say, great, thank you. Now I understand uh what we're trying to achieve today. I'm not sure how I can contribute. Um can you can you clarify what you what you need or would like from me today? Because if I can't contribute, um then I I I I can go and do something else, and we won't be sort of I won't be dragging down the the meeting or we won't be uh inefficient use of our time. So can you just clarify what it is that you're hoping or looking to get from me? And if the person who's arranged the meeting has done it properly, they should be able to say, yeah, absolutely. Priena, you're here because you have a lot of HR experience. Our team doesn't. I know that you're not working it directly in HR at the moment, but we really need your advice on this. So we're going to explain the situation and hopefully draw on your expertise. So now we know why you're included.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

And if the answer is, you know, well, you know, you're in this team and you're you're connected to the work. If someone can't give you a clear reason for what you're going to produce, you should be able to ask to self-eliminate. Yeah. Yes, company culture, power plays, all sorts of other things come in. Personal confidence may stop you doing that.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

But if you can stick to the fact and say, I don't see how I contribute to this output, my time is better spent elsewhere. Do you mind if I leave? The person could always say no. No, please stay. This is something you need to know about, but at least you'll get to a better point of understanding.

SPEAKER_05 17:38

Yeah, and that resentment might be there. That resentment of wasted time is quite something, isn't it, Chris? Now, I know you do lots of work and I know you help many an organization become even better. Are there any unconventional approaches uh that you've seen companies take to address these meetings and you know the busy culture issues? Um, and what were the results? If you can share, please.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Yes, there's a an interesting I find it interesting. Hopefully, you and you and anyone listening to this does as well. At the beginning of 2023, Spotify, the online company, yeah, eliminated all meetings. Oh all meetings that had more that were more than a one-to-one, yeah, were removed from the calendars. And it was a blanket ban on meetings. And they it was something like 300,000 hours worth of meetings that were scheduled in, were all taken out of the calendars. And then they had they had a series of rules where there was a strict number of uh a strict limit on the number of people who could attend a meeting. And there if there was a meeting over a certain size, it could only happen, I think it was on a Thursday morning. So very rigid rules. And there was quite a lot in the press about this. It made some of the national newspapers around the world, it was on Huffington Post, Fast Company, or the websites that that provide information about business practices, and it was quite a big buzz around this great move. And then nothing since then. And there's not been any follow-up that I've been able to find describing what a success it was.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Or what a failure it was.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

And what I've been able to glean from looking at some employees' personal blogs, people have their own substacks, their own blogs. They people talk, they put comments on Glassdoor, is it seems as though meetings begun to creep back in.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Partly because it's human nature.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

And then you make this exception of, oh, well, I just need to get these four people together because we have to do this thing and it makes sense in this moment. But for the rest of the time, I'll abide by the rule. And then I imagine, and it's purely supposition on my part. I imagine they've crept back into something like a more normal meeting culture.

SPEAKER_03 20:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

And part of the reason for that is this happens with most initiatives that are big. There's a lot of emphasis up front on change, and then we slide into old habits.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

And I'd love to hear from anyone who is at Shopify. And if someone comes up and says, no, no, we still have no meetings, it's the biggest success. I will write about that, I will promote that. I would love to learn more about that.

SPEAKER_05 20:31

Amazing. And can I just say to our audience who are listening, if they're doing something completely different, please, please get in touch with Chris and share the love. Share with Chris what you are doing, which is different. Um, Chris, I want to share with you. So, in workplaces that I've worked in the past, or you know, places that I've helped to deal with this business culture aspect, especially, um, they've implemented different things. So instead of a traditional meeting where you know you sit at a desk and you know, there's that power play, isn't there? You're in front of me, I'm you know, in front of you as well. You know, who's the bigger person?

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Who's sitting at the head of the table, who's at the edges?

SPEAKER_05 21:08

You got it, exactly. Uh go for a walk and discuss what you need to, you know, that's a good alternative. And you know, from a psychological perspective, especially eye contact, you know, you're both at that same level, you're walking together. So there's stuff that's been proven about eye contact, you don't have as much eye contact. So sometimes it's often easier for certain personalities to walk and talk, you know. And often, you know, when you're walking, you have so many new ideas that pop up as well. So it's a creative thing often for people, also. Um, Chris, some organizations instead of meetings, what they'll do is a daily stand up. So 15 minutes, what's on the cards for today? We're good, off you go. But it's a check-in nonetheless. So there's a there's a meeting, yes, but it's a stand up, and we're quick and dirty, and off we go on our merry. Way and do whatever we need to for the day. I've got some clients that I work with that I don't meet with whatsoever, Chris, and that is heavily based on trust. And what I do in response to that is status reports, right? So at the end of the week, I will report to you everything that I've worked on and you know, share whatever else I need to, but there's that mutual trust there. So meetings are definitely one way to communicate, but there's so many other alternatives, right?

unknown 22:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

There are, there are. And it's about picking the right or not the right, the right makes it sound like there's one way to do it. Picking one of the good ways to achieve the particular purpose and output that you want from that interaction.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Because communications are situations. And you you mentioned going for a walk with someone.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

If you were, if I was talking to someone in if I was talking to someone in my in my previous teams, I've had I've had a number of real jobs, corporate jobs before I did what I do now. And there are situations where going for a walk really helps. There are situations where if someone was talking about a personal issue or a challenge, we wouldn't sit on either side of a desk. I'd come around and sit next to them. It would be a conversation rather than a boss employee sort of face-off.

SPEAKER_05 23:22

Dynamic, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Where that wouldn't work is if you were talking with your top engineer about the new schematics for something and you need a whiteboard or you need somewhere to draw, be able to display diagrams or show something on a laptop. That would be terrible while while walking. That wouldn't work. Because the purpose of the conversation doesn't match the method that you're choosing to have that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

And what you've described is a wonderful array of different methods that could be used in the right situation. And this is where we all have a responsibility to not just default to we'll sit in a room, but to put a little bit of thought into what are the different ways that we can achieve this particular purpose, achieve this particular output. And then what would be the nicest, best, most efficient way to do that? Don't default to let's get six people in a room.

SPEAKER_05 24:22

Absolutely. For leaders, and I know many a leader who, you know, if you look at their diary, Chris, it's just back-to-back to back-to-back meetings. So how can leaders strike a balance between too many meetings and then not enough communication? You know, there's always that quandary, especially for a leader or people manager. It's it's quite the tightrope that they walk on.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

It really is. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it starts with coming back to purpose and output. I used to be one of those leaders in back-to-back meetings. My my worst days ever were 30-minute back-to-back meetings.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

The context shifting, the constantly on, the changing topics, it was exhausting and it felt like I achieved very little until I started reviewing all the meetings that were mine and all the meetings that I was invited to against the output. And if the purpose of a 30-minute meeting is to get a one-line status update as to whether we're on track, I've tried to find a different way to get that information.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Now that includes trust. You mentioned trust before. It's critical to removing that FaceTime with someone. You do need to have trust and a mechanism to get the specific information that you want. And you mentioned status meetings. Well, could that status be an email? Could it be a report? If the purpose of the meeting is just to receive information, see if there's a different way to do it. And if the purpose of the meeting is to elicit ideas, that's a discussion. That's a bring people together moment. So taking that thought, the first thing leaders can do is really evaluate what is the purpose of the meeting? What am I expecting or needing to get out of it? And does it need a meeting?

SPEAKER_05 26:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

And if it doesn't, cut it.

SPEAKER_05 26:20

Don't do it. Absolutely. One of the things I talk about when I'm delivering effective communications training, Chris, is there's many ways that leaders can gain buy-in and communicate. Sometimes, as a leader, you have to tell this is how it is, tough luck, no negotiation. Sometimes you have to test the waters. Chris, what you reckon about this? You know, Prino, what you reckon about this? So we've got to have that, we have to have a conversation of some sort in the right manner. Tell, sell, uh no, tell, test, sell. Sometimes you have to sell your stuff, you know. Chris, we're gonna be changing office locations. It's gonna be amazing. I'm selling to you now, as your leader. And then there's um consult. Sometimes you do have to consult, and that was that example that you gave earlier. No, Pruna, you're not specifically uh, you know, an expert in this uh topic, but we need your HR brain, let's say. That's why we want you here. And then the last one, sometimes we have to co-create, and you know, in a workplace, collaboration, breaking silos, that's what we're all about. So then when we have to uh co-create, that's when minds have to meet, more so, but that's when we can get creative, and it need not be a traditional meeting as well. So there's various ways in you know, the way the a leader can get their message across, like you're saying, but choose the right medium.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Um absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

And can I may I add something to that?

SPEAKER_05 27:57

Please, please, please.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

The if anyone's listening and wondering, well, when should it be face-to-face and when should it be email or something else?

SPEAKER_05 28:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

I have some guidelines that might help. Okay. And it's the more impactful, so the greater the impact, yeah, or the greater the emotion, the more face-to-face it should be. Yeah. So if you're telling, if I'm telling my team they can all have Friday afternoon off, I can send that in an email. Yes, it would be nice to gather everyone together and make a big deal out of it, but that's a hey everyone, you get Friday afternoon off, that that's a piece of information that's that's delivery. Or if I'm telling someone that that we've successfully achieved a milestone.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Like we're working on this program, we had 17 things to deliver, we've done three of them. I can send that by a Slack or a messaging or an email or something.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

If I'm talking about building moves, you use that in this example, that's quite an emotive topic. People will have big feelings about that. And there's impact. Impact to my commute taking my kids to school, where I park, I used to cycle, where all of those things, yeah, that is more face-to-face. Because then as the person delivering the message, yeah, I can see reactions and I provide an environment for people to raise their concerns, or I can give clear instructions for where they can raise their concerns. So high impact, high emotion topics, face-to-face.

SPEAKER_05 29:32

Perfect. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Other end of the scale, you've got lots of other options for doing that.

SPEAKER_05 29:38

Yeah, absolutely. And Chris, you know, we've been talking about this podcast for a while now, and I saw a post um by another friend of ours. Uh, Shelly is her name, and I tagged Chris on it. So I'm gonna read Shelly's points here, Chris. I've got them here. So Shelly says, I know everyone complains about too many meetings, but can we talk about emails that should have been meetings? And then she says, You know the ones, and okay, let's discuss the email with hard-hitting constructive feedback without any discussion. Oh my gosh, that should have been a meeting. Uh, the resignation email email before having a conversation. Oh, people, please have the conversation, it's the right thing to do. The passive aggressive, all staff slack message about the policy issue that only related to the one employee. You know, that paintbrush that everyone's painted with, just to avoid that one conversation. Ah, the slack message requesting leave for five months to travel around Australia. Sounds fun, but definitely a conversation, says she. Self-select, don't we? As as you know, getten the offer meeting as well.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Uh, I really like that last one of hey, can I can I have five months off? That's quite a high impact thing. That would be that would be like uh going online and and seeing a picture of a car and buying it on one click.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Because you wouldn't do it. That takes a little bit of a decision process.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Don't think the boss is gonna go, yeah, sure, see you in September. There's going there's a little bit more to it than that.

SPEAKER_05 31:24

Absolutely so. Um, so if we go back to meetings, then let's say a traditional meeting, in your opinion, what's the most overlooked issue related to meetings at work? And how can it be resolved, Chris, in your expert opinion?

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

The most overlooked thing is that arranging a meeting is like spending company money.

SPEAKER_05 31:50

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

We talk about it, it comes up a little bit, and it's a free-for-all. Yeah. How many companies would give every employee a credit card with a $5,000 spend limit and no oversight? And they could just spend that much each month. I don't know any companies that are that free. No, and yet we give every person the right to invite as many people as they want to a meeting, which is spending company money. It's time, the old time is money. But people's time has value that would be otherwise spent on other things. You wouldn't give everyone a credit card, but we give everyone the right to spend money on meetings. So that's the problem.

SPEAKER_05 32:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Take a moment to process that and then I'll and then I'll talk about the solution. But what do you think about that as a problem?

SPEAKER_05 32:41

I think that's a brilliant problem to pose because when we look at it in this manner, Chris, it's like, shit, how am I using my time? It really gets me to reflect if I was still working in the corporate world and you know, my busy days, really, it was not worth my time in that respect. You know, so you know, I mean, we're talking about the rise of the knowledge worker as well. And the knowledge worker needs to use their brain. We don't often effectively use our brains in meetings, it's that deep thinking work that we need to do. So when you're talking about arranging a meeting is like using the company's money, it takes me to that. Is it an effective use of time? So I think yeah, anyone takes anything away from this conversation. Really, have a conversation about this. Arranging a meeting is like using the company's money. Let's use it effectively.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Absolutely. And so the solution is I've got a sound by solution that sounds really simple. And it's make sure the right people are in the room for no longer than they need to be. Ah, yes. That's the what. It's easy to say and it rolls off the tongue, but the how is the hard bit. And for the how, I'm not saying we need to add bureaucracy. I'm not saying we need a huge approvals process like we have for company spending. Often that is too restrictive. But what we do need is training, support, guidance over the long term for people to understand and be educated, not because they've done, but because we've never been told this stuff. Be educated and find the right balance for meetings for the organization. And every company can have a different level of need for meetings, a different level of collaboration, a different level of trust within the organization, and so on. But the long-term solution is slow, gradual change, and slow is okay. Gradual change through training and support to enable people to understand what a great meeting looks like, what an effective meeting looks like. And that is the future that we then move towards.

SPEAKER_05 34:48

Beautiful, Chris. Ah, this is such a missing piece from you. Say, you know, at university level, we know we're not even taught. Topic, purpose, and output are the three key elements that you've repeated through this conversation. You know, so there's so much that we need to learn, especially in relation to, let's say, if we're leading a meeting, the kind of conversations that we need to have to ensure that the meeting goes on the right track. Um, the kind of notes that we want to capture, um, the big open questions that we should be asking. This is just mammoth. Once you start to delve deeper into this, and I know you help many people uh in this manner as well, Chris. Are there any other extra tips that you wish to share at this point?

SPEAKER_02 35:34

There's there's one that will help with anyone who's sat in a meeting and thinking, this isn't this isn't going in the direction we were expecting. We're not going to achieve what we needed, or it's taken a turn. Okay. And the tip is this keep an eye out for the points where the conversation, well, conversations will move in natural directions, but if you feel the conversation has taken a significant turn away from the output that you're working towards, recognize that as a question and decision point. And the question is, hey everyone, are we still moving towards the original output or are we now working on something different?

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

And the answer to that will either pivot you back to this is the decision, you decide to go back to the original output, or you decide to do something new and acknowledge that you're no longer going to produce that original output. So if you're in a meeting, whether it, if you're leading it, you should absolutely pay attention to these because that's part of your responsibility. But as a participant, you are, it's not only your right, but it's part of your duty. All of us have a duty of care to recognize these points where we're no longer making progress towards the original output. And it's a hand in the air, ask. You might have missed something. We're all we all have those bits missing, but ask if are we still going to this place we originally intended? And if we're not, do we refocus or do we pivot and change to something else?

SPEAKER_05 37:08

Perfect. And that's not passive aggressive, that is genuine, that's uh inquisitive, and it's bringing people back on track, ideally, as well, right? Rather than that rolling off eyes and you know, crossing off arms and everything else that happens in a meeting when people have just disengaged altogether. Re-engage. Re-engage, and you can in this manner. Um Chris, I could talk to you forever, and you are super practical. So, in the show notes, I'm gonna share details of some freebies that you've shared as well for our audience. That's really kind of you. Um, but before we finish, Chris, I've got one very important question to ask you. Mr. Chris Fenning, this podcast is called Ways to Change your Workplace. If I was to hand you a magic wand, Chris Fenning, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_02 38:03

One way. Oh, I get my one magic wish to use here. Yeah, holding my wand, and I'm going to say Abracadabra. Now everyone in a job understands that issues can't be solved with one and done training. Leaders recognize, plan for, and fund and support longer-term methods to help implement what they've learned in training. Which is actually the topic of one of my upcoming books called 39 Ways to Make Training Stick. That is a conversation for another time. But the magic wand moment is every one of us, particularly leaders, understand it takes time, effort, and support to make change. So don't think that single training is going to help. Whatever the problem is, whether it's meetings, emails, solving your main company strategy, culture, whatever it is, it takes time. Plan for that and support it.

SPEAKER_05 39:05

Okay, we're going to be talking again, Chris, at another time about exactly this other topic. One and done training. I love that statement itself. That just has so many issues and so many expectations with it that end up as failures because we've just put too much of a fix-it mentality on. Chris will go to that training and everything will be hunky-dory after that.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

No, it doesn't work. Human behavior change.

SPEAKER_05 39:32

Nah, you're talking to human behavior change. Okay, confirmed. Chris is going to come back to the podcast to talk about something else. But Chris, for today, I cannot thank you enough. Thank you so, so much. Sign up to my newsletter, which is detailed in the show notes if you stand against crappy cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams. And I'll see you in the next episode.