110. Legacy Series with Geoff Stewart District Superintendent of the Western Australian Police Force and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace. This one is gonna be a really good one to help you uplift your leadership game. I am very lucky in what I do to come across wonderful people who are making a real difference within the workplace. These are people who you want to get the secret recipe from. You want to learn the secret source as to why they're doing what they're doing, and these are people who are leaving quite the legacy within the workplace, and they've been leaving a legacy within the workplace for quite a while now. So, if you don't know, I am writing a book about leaving a legacy in the workplace, exactly that. And I'm speaking to big thinkers from the workplace who are legacy levers, and Jeff Stewart is from the Western Australian Police Force. He has a long-standing career, and he is one of the most respected people that I know when you talk about leaving Legacy in the workplace. So you're gonna love this episode. There's so many juicy bits, and Jeff is very open and very vulnerable. So tune in and let us know how you go. We would love to get some feedback from you. What did you pick up? Jeff, his reputation precedes him. You will see why. Catch us on LinkedIn and let us know what you find from this episode. Thank you so much. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace, where I am speaking with the wonderful Jeff Stewart. Jeff, hello and welcome to this episode. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Hello, Krena. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

It is really good to have you here today, Jeff. Now, for people who don't know you, I want to do a little bit of an introduction, if I may. Sure. So, Jeff. Jeff Stewart joined the Western Australian Police Force 45 years ago and has enjoyed a diverse career, a very diverse career, with roles in metropolitan and regional areas, including traffic, general duties, forensics, ballistics, weapons and tactics training, counter-terrorism, close personal protection, marine and land search and rescue, officer in charge at remote regional or metropolitan stations, which range from 200 personnel to over 200 and senior district management roles. So Jeff has been around in the WA Police Force, the Western Australian Police Force, and beyond actually. Jeff was also a visiting fellow at the Australian Institute of Police Management in New South Wales. And that was in 2016. And Jeff delivered executive leadership programs to multi-agency and jurisdictional organizations in Australia and Southeast Asia. Jeff has been sharing his knowledge for years. Jeff is passionate about the welfare of the police family. Jeff has been a member of the board of the WA Police Legacy since 2008. And that's an organization that supports the partners and families of fallen police officers. Jeff is a proud husband to Helen, and he has four kids. That's his team. Jeff, you have many an accolade, and I don't think we've covered enough here. I don't think. You're doing a lot of work at the moment in um opening people's eyes to all things leadership, leadership development, culture, ways to change your workplace. And that's how we came across each other. Um welcome, Jeff. You are you are quite the high achiever.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Well, I I had to get something if it's nearly half a century of uh working for this uh this mob, uh Prenna. But yeah, look, I we've spoken before. I like um what we do in terms of just having these chats. It's how I learn, and I'm still learning. So uh I'm really happy to be here and um and take away something from this conversation today.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Oh, it's a pleasure to have you, Jeff. Now, Jeff, you do lots of things, and I don't think this introduction has done you justice whatsoever. Can I ask you? Sorry, at the moment, you are the district superintendent of the Southwest District of Western Australia, which is a huge area. Um, but beyond that, can I ask you what you do in relation to the leadership work that you're doing and the conversations that you're having, and why you do what you do in relation to that work. What is it and why do you do it?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Sure, sure. I guess the uh the how it evolved, Prina, was um I've I've I've been in the job for a long, long time, and I've been uh mainly in the country areas. I specialise for a while in Perth, and when we had our family, I decided to move to the country, and and I've been into quite you know remote and other areas, but there's always where there's a lot of things happening, and uh I guess I developed a bit of a reputation for being an operational officer, planning responses to natural disasters as well as crime and um things of dealing in alcohol and violence in some communities, and that's so I was really good at that. And after about 30 odd years, I got the opportunity to go to the place. I was a visiting fellow, the Australian Institute of Police Management. I went there as a participant on a program, and I'd already done 30 plus years, and I thought I knew everything, but deep down I knew there were things about me as a leader that I wasn't really happy with. But I went there and I just opened my eyes up. It was like a kick up the bum to say, you've got some work to do, and so I went back to work and but I knew that I had to do more, and then not knowing that in 2016 I would get the opportunity to go there as a visiting fellow on staff, and thinking I was going to go there and just do that, I quickly realized I was there to learn more about myself. As a result of that, when I came, when I was over there, I started sending newsletters back to my colleagues, 20 20 friends in the job. I'd send them back a newsletter and say, Hey, this we've been talking about this, this is what I reckon. What do you think? And and that grew. And after 12 months, I came back to uh WA police um and I kept on doing them, and I started having face-to-face coffee meetings in the morning. Uh, good starts today, where we just I put out a monthly newsletter, and then I'd say, I'm gonna be at police headquarters, or I'm gonna be at the academy, or I'm gonna be at the terrace somewhere. And if anyone wants to join me for a coffee, so I started doing that, and so we grew a little community. COVID came along, and probably uh the best thing for the leadership strategy was I had so many people overseas and all around Australia that now were getting the newsletters that wanted to be part of the conversations and they couldn't. COVID came along, so I went online, and now it's just uh gone gangbusters in terms of more reach, and now we have online um uh sessions. We have people, as I said, from all around um uh Australia and overseas, and uh you know the one we had last last month was we had people from the US, from the UK, from New Zealand, from Australia, and we just talk. And uh so I'm a bit selfish though that I do it uh just as much for me as everyone else. Yeah. Uh because I worked out I've got things to work on, and I've been doing that, but I just it's we've just created a community um where we have so many people from diverse areas, not just police, we have emergency services, business, industry, community sectors all involved because the best thing I like about it is for a long time I had blinkers on, and everything I looked at was blue, and I just had that police lens on. And uh when I uh stopped doing that, um yeah, it's just you just learn so much, you create a diverse group of people, and uh there's so much diverse learnings come from that, and uh I just enjoy it, and it's it's done the world for me, it's made me a better person as much as being a better leader, I hope.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

And oh, beautiful, Jeff. And that's exactly what I get from the podcast and the stuff that I'm doing. I completely completely relate to this. Um, and for people who don't know, what I'm gonna do is I'll put Jeff's details in the show notes. So Jeff has created quite the movement. Uh, it's it's a huge Jeff. You are again very modest. So Jeff has talks every month, I believe it is. One talk is Leadership 60, where there'll be a big philosophical leadership question that you will pose to the group, and it's all on Zoom, so the whole world is welcome. And we as a group will discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly of it. And it's a really interesting debate, very respectful, and you know, there's poking, there's prodding, there's agreeing, there's disagreeing, but we all walk out of these sessions with a bigger brain and more ideas and just richer as people. So that's the leadership 60 conversations that Jeff hosts, very kindly hosts. And then the other thing that Jeff does is he hosts leadership 30 conversations. Now that's a short and sweet insight into leaders of this world, and it's a real deep dive into why they do what they do. And I've attended a few, and I have fallen in love with the people that you have uh as your guest, Jeff. And it sounds like you pick people um who are making a difference in the workplace, and um, I'm very, very honored to be a guest uh for you tomorrow as well. I can't wait. But in those leadership 30 conversations, the thing that I always get is you get a deep dive into that individual. Because often, and I don't know about you, Jeff, often, you know, with every day and things happening, we have these various hats on, but the leadership 30 conversation that really happens, we take all of these hats off and we get to the core of the individual, I feel.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yeah, totally, totally agree. And I think um, yeah, probably and good to note too, the leadership 60s, Prina, are not recorded because you described it really, really well, where people are really honest and and have some uh really decent hard conversations. So is Chatham House rules, what says in the room stays in the room, but we definitely record the leadership 30s because uh there's so much learnings from that. And as we're gonna find out with yours tomorrow, but it is that's what it's about. People, you know, um one I look at sometimes on LinkedIn and places like that, and people describe themselves as a uh you know, a proven leader and uh you know good at everything, you know. I'm I'm just a um I'm just someone who's still learning, and that's that's why these, you know, whether it be my leadership 60s or your podcasts, it's about recognizing that you'll never stop learning, you're never gonna stop learning. And uh, and one of the points I make uh when I talk to groups about leadership, either with my organization or others, I always make the point there's not a single person ever, including me, that doesn't want to change something about themselves as a person or as a leader. Not a single person, and that's what this is all about. Not accepting that you're the grand pubar of leadership, that you're the the bee's knees and all that type of thing. It's uh we're all human and uh we don't always get it right, but uh it's about just tweaking what we need to tweak, and you do that by learning.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Absolutely. Yeah, Jeff comes from a very humble perspective, and the fact that you're a lifelong learner, and you know, we are all works in progress, as I say. I think I'm always going to be a work in progress. I think that's the same mentality that you have as well. That is very counterintuitive to the way of the workplace, Jeff. Because the higher we go in our career, you know, we hit the apex of whatever roles that we're in, you are a specialist. Of course, you're supposed to know everything. So from the kind of work that you're doing, and I know, you know, everybody knows institutions such as the police force, um, military, whatever else, you know, those kind of institutions have a very command and control kind of culture. What you are doing is saying, well, actually, maybe I don't know. Um that that's very different to the traditional culture that you come from from an organizational perspective, Jeff. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yeah, I I can, and you you're right. Um, police is uh very much a paramilitary type organization. Uh, when I joined, and um, and it still is in pockets sometimes, and I reckon they're the people that need to do something about the way they lead. But uh, you know, even when we talk though about people that were leaders way back then, I I love asking people about tell me the name of the person that you thought was the best leader that you've ever had. And that'll be back in those times as well, but they don't talk about being a hard ass and that's the way it is, just do, do, do. They talk about the people who are humble, who show care. And uh, so even back then we recognized the best leaders were those emotionally intelligent people, and uh, so I and I think that's uh what it's about. Brene uh Brown is one of my favorite people. I listen to her read books about, and she talks about, you know, it used to be about muscle leadership, yeah, and uh and now it's getting it's it's a uh going forward, it's about heart. For me, it's always been about heart. The best leaders we've ever followed are the ones we want to follow because we want to, not because we have to, because they had those great qualities. And uh, but you're exactly right though. Our organization, uh like any other policing organization, another uh whether it be military or emergency services, there's always a hierarchical thing. But you know, when when we deal with daunting challenges, you get people to do it uh to meet the challenges, and particularly when you're going through organizational change, you you you gotta get the hearts and minds. You gotta you know, you won't get everyone, but how can you hook them in? Yeah, and that's just by being I go on a bit about this. There's a technical term in leadership that I've um that I've got now, and uh it's so important. It's called GDP, it's called being a good, decent person.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Love it. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um permission to swear. When I'm delivering emotional intelligence training, we have a brilliant, brilliant day, and at the end of the session, I summarize it in one set in one sentence. Don't be a dickhead. Yeah, really, that's all it is, and it's about leading with head, it's leading with your heart and leading with a backbone as well. There's three elements I always say. There's you know, there's a good mix, you need a good mix of both. Now, Jeff, you have been around, as you have said as well, 45 years, or is it over 45 years?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Uh yeah, I think I'm getting my 45 clasp to my medal. Uh I've just received it and um to be served. So, yeah, it's 45 years. I I know it's hard to believe, Printer. I I only look 27, so uh I know. So that's it.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

That's it. Babyface Jeff. Now, Jeff, so how would you define the legacy that you have left or continue to leave in the area that you work in? What lasting impact do you hope to leave?

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Um I think it's it's all about the people. That's what I just want to make sure. And like I said, Prina, I I just had this change about seven or eight years ago. So uh I wasn't always I I I did some people stuff, but now I make it's it's more important than anything to me about you know how we recognize and reward and acknowledge people and uh but also how we create the best team culture and uh things like that. You should not go and work in an environment that's just crap, and it's just stays crap. And uh so I I think the legacy I want to leave is particularly is that it's not always about the leader, you know. Sometimes I saw a thing on LinkedIn the other day where it said leaders need to understand they have the greatest influence on the people uh that they work with, and uh, and I said, Yeah, I get that, I agree, but it's also any part of the any team member also has the greatest influence uh on them. And so I I think my legacy is about just don't forget what's really important, it's all about people, you know. Uh I ask people about what business are we in, and and if they're a copper, they'll say about fighting crime and keeping the community safe. If you talk to someone else, they'll say it's about selling the most thing. It's not we're in the business of people. When we actually look through what we do with the lens of uh keeping that in mind, yeah, that's where we have the greatest impact and the greatest effect. That's when we get people that want to stay where they are. That's where we we're not just being a leader and creating followers, we're being a leader and creating leaders. Everyone's got a part, and it doesn't matter what level of uh position or rank or role you have, we're all leaders, or we can be.

unknown 18:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Because I also make the point, too, that um, you know, I'm not a leader unless I undertake activities of leadership. I can I can um I can have a position of authority being the district superintendent where I'm now, but unless I'm actually leading, uh, then it counts for nothing. And you see that sometimes we have people that um are so-called leaders, but they're not really doing anything. And uh and so I just want people to understand that everyone's got the skin in the game in terms of uh leadership within wherever they are. It doesn't matter if you're down the the bottom of the food chain or or middle or whatever, if everyone actually decides to do something positive in in terms of the culture within the team, then they'll they'll be the places that you just look back on. And it's usually after we leave, we look back and say, that was by far the best time I've ever had. Best time I've ever had. That's what it's all about, and it doesn't matter what dynamic environment you work in, including police, and we deal with some bad things sometimes and things like that. We all do, but uh, we can also have the best time because we're there for each other and uh and the like. So for me, the legacy is about don't forget what it's all about, and uh and don't just make it lip service. Yeah, you know, too often companies, organizations they say it's all about the people, it's not, you know. You know, I we have a saying about police, it's all about the blue family. And I say, don't say it unless you mean it. You know, so what are the one percenters that I call? What are we doing about that? The way that I interact, the way that I actually manage people, the way that uh I actually uh give permission to others to lead as well, instead of getting in there and micromanaging and things like that. So yeah, I guess that's a long answer to your question, but my legacy is about just I hope people understand it's all about people.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Perfect, and we are all leaders, you know. That that I think we really need to remember that, and again, you are breaking the thinking here. Uh, I've had experience of working in government as well, Jeff. So, you know, from a governmental perspective, the hierarchy is quite something. I'm a level this, I'm a level that. Nah, drop that language. You are a leader in whatever you do, that's why you're there. Be the best that you can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yes. Now you have had quite the career and many, many opportunities. No doubt you've seen the other side as well. I'm sure everything hasn't been hunky-dory all the way along, without breaking confidence, and against Chatham House rules in terms of not naming any names. Can you share a specific example of a career challenge that you yourself encountered and how you got over it, how you overcame it, Jeff?

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah. Um, yeah, without going into detail, then I as a as a senior officer, I suppose I would have been back then as well, still. Um, I was held accountable for um some poor performance uh within my uh within my work unit. And uh it got to a situation where I was Account formally, and it was quite embarrassing. And uh, and it wasn't anything criminal or unlawful or whatever, but it was um more administratively and and whatever, but it caused um undue attention to the agency, and uh um I wasn't uh part of it, but I was overseeing the the the work unit there, and uh so I had to uh um face up to some serious music and uh and and ramifications, and uh and prent, I I thought it's one of my um darkest times I I'd say, and I think if my wife Helen was on here with me, um uh she would certainly say the same thing. It affected me greatly because I was like um one of those uh people who were seen as a high performer. If there was an issue, send Stewie there and he'll take care of it and protests or bikes or or whatever. So uh and it and it really knocked me for six. And um, I was embarrassed, and it was just before my father died. And I remember my old man um uh he actually asked me before he passed away, what's all that because it was in the paper without naming me or whatever, but he could you could tell that it was my area or whatever. So I was really sad that he had to see that and and talk to me about that before he passed away. So, what did I do about it? Um, you know, I I stopped blaming other people because when I looked down deep inside, there were some things that uh I probably could have put in place or done about uh uh about that. And uh and so rather than just do the old blame, and you know, I got phone calls from other managers saying, Oh, that's bullshit, and uh um sorry for swearing that that's uh that's not right. You know, it's um so you know, the job's effed and all this type of stuff. And but you know what, deep down inside as a leader, I knew that I'd probably let myself down. And uh so I I had to do something about it. I did something about it by looking for opportunities for growth and and uh and not just resting back and and being one of these negative people who blame everyone else except uh uh having a look in the mirror. So I did that. And uh so and this comes back. One of my other favourite sayings out of all that is you know, adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it. So it's how do you get on with it? I didn't talk about it anymore. I just let my actions speak for myself, and I got back on and and uh and when I and I went over to uh New South Wales at the college and and I took uh advantage of some other opportunities, and all of a sudden I'm back on the horse and I'm getting career progression again, and uh, and I feel so much better about it. And uh so that was a real testing time for me, but you don't, I I just made sure I didn't want to wallow in the uh in self-pity, I didn't want to blame other people, um, and I just had to hold the mirror up and say, yeah, you had some part in that. Uh, and there's a great question that uh I learned uh over in the college, and uh I still use it today with other people. What's your part in the mess? Um yeah, and uh and when I when I asked myself that question and I answered it, I had actions that come out of it, and I did those actions and uh I felt so much better for doing it. Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it. People see it and take notice.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Beautiful, Jeff. And it sounds like it was a really tough and dark time um for you, and the fact that you know, you clearly wanted to make your dad proud, and I'm sure he's very was very proud of you nonetheless, but to see that and during just before he passed away as well, one of your final conversations with him, and being a high achiever, you are focused on you know achieving and giving back to the people that you're serving as well, quite the blow. But then the way that you flip it as well, I'm sure, and I, you know, very similar to yourself, that there are low moments that we all have, and I think it's it's important, and I call it, I'll use my wording, it's important to throw yourself a little pity party because during that time of you know, self-pity and wallowing in self-pity and all of that, you're uncovering all of these things, you know. So for yourself, you uncovered that you were blaming others, and it was time to stop that and to look in the mirror. So I think without observing those feelings and observing yourself and understanding yourself, you can't move on. We can just go into this self-pity kind of mode, and you know, the worst leaders. We've all got stories about the worst leadership experiences we've had. Most of us have seen the leaders who, you know, blame and point the finger and the scapegoat kind of work that happens. That stays with people and it is traumatic. So it's how we overcome that and how we turn it into something positive and a learning experience. And then opportunities come out of that as well, Jeff. You are a different person at the end of that horrible experience.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Yeah, I and I like uh what you said at the start there, uh, Prenna. It's important to have that pity party and just deal with it. Get, yeah, have a sook about it, but then just uh pull up the big boy pants or the big girl pants and uh and do what you need to do to move forward.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Exactly. But there is a really important point in stopping to observe what is happening so that we can understand, therefore, we can then move on from it. Otherwise, it just stays internalized in us and then we explode in the future in awful ways. Um Jeff, were there any significant risks or unconventional approaches that you've taken in your career that have led you to where you are now?

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Um probably looking for uh growth opportunities that are not just um within your own organization. As I said, I've I I've just worked out it's so important for me to see things that just aren't blue all the time and things like that. So I look for those opportunities and um and I tell my my people that you know you got to do that. Don't rely, you are your professional development officer, not the agency. And uh so if you want to grow, then it's down to down to you. I think look, I think one of the um the best things they've ever done is when I came back from New South Wales, I I worked at the police academy and I was uh involved in the professional development area, and uh there was an mentor program there with the um in the learning precinct out of Jundal up uh with the uh university and uh the sh the local government and uh the TAFE and the like, and uh and I like that because uh it paired um someone with another different organization. So I I I like that. I did it that one year, and uh so when I came down to the Southwest, um we commenced um a mentor program down here. So I went and approached uh five organizations, um, police, uh DFES, EC University, Shire, um uh sorry, the city of Bunbury, and uh Country Health. And uh and we had 36 people that um that said they wanted to be part of it. So we had 18 pairs of people that were not paired with each other. Wow, and it was so successful, and uh so that the follow the following year I said let's it's gonna grow. So we went to 11 organizations and 66 people. Uh so we had 33 partners, and we just closed we just closed the last program where we had 17 organizations and 150 um participants. So um, and that's gonna grow again, but you know, the best thing about that is that I had a bucket load of my people on the program as well, and they got to sit down with someone who wasn't a copper, they were either working in health, local government, a private company, a uh you know, uh whoever, and it was great. And you once again you step outside the comfort zone and uh and you learn, and uh so um that that is something that I've really taken a lesson out for myself. I learned how important that was, put it into practice, yeah, and it's so easy. You you can anyone can do that. We we've been doing it on the smell of an oily rag. Uh you know, or you know, I give them the opportunities to do the leadership 60s and 30s. You uh each I started asking my commissioner at the time came down and spoke to the group. Other companies uh involved and other organizations grabbed their people, their leaders, and uh so and we had a full-day leadership program only in February, I think, this year, where we had speakers come in and and and we and we got filled up the hotel with people that were just like us, like-minded people, but just want to grow. It comes back to that, you know, if you build it, they will come. Yeah, there's so many people out there that are just ready to step over the line of personal and professional development, yeah, and looking for those growth opportunities, and uh, and it's so so easy to do. Um, you know, it's and it's so enjoyable. Yeah, and uh, but that's probably something outside the box that I probably didn't uh it's just paid dividends.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

It's huge, it's different, it's very different. Um, I have a lot of experience with mentoring now through my business as um developing people on mentoring programs, so local councils, Edith's Cowan University, Murdoch uh University, there's lots of programs I'm a member of as their trainer, but I have been a lucky, lucky recipient of a mentoring program when I was on the program years ago and the Jundla uh Learning Precinct program. I was a member of, and shout out to someone you know and I know. I was paired with the head of the uh police learning academy, an amazing, amazing person called Mr. Alan Morton, who I love. So he was my mentor years ago, probably around 2013, Jeff. And I have clung on to him since. You know, we've had this informal relationship throughout, and the power of mentoring I can attest to being the most, one of the most things that's truly helped me with development, Jeff. And I'm happy to share the kind of stuff that I talk to Alan with, you know, when we do catch up, as I've been starting my business, it's about Alan. I'm working in a more male-dominated industry. So I I bring my female perspective to the conversation, you know, how do I deal with blokes? You know, you know, blokes at that helm off their career, that kind of stuff I talk about. I talk about fear. Um, and you know, this is the next level of me, but I'm really scared, Alan. What's this about? So I'll bring, you know, all sorts of stuff to Alan and it is the best. But then, Jeff, the other wonderful thing about this is reverse mentoring. And I won't disclose what Alan brings, but guaranteed, Alan's bringing stuff to the conversation as well. Yeah, Jeff, that program finished yonks ago, but we're still keeping in touch. So the power of such programs are immense to organizations that don't cost much, not really, but the effect that you have on people beyond, you know, this current year, beyond this job, even it's immense.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Yeah. Well, you know, uh, Mr. Morton is a uh a very highly ranked officer in this organization, and you did really well to get him as a uh mentor, he's highly respected. But that's the beauty about those opportunities that come up when they do, you don't always know who you're gonna get. And but if you know, if you you don't have to be on a program to have a mentor or be a mentee or whatever, you can actually reach out, and people, particularly people in the higher levels, they enjoy it when people actually make contact and actually want to uh pick their brains or have coffee conversations and or even become a mentor uh for them. So it's just about as I said, people are either at the line ready to step over and do something, or they're just a a step back, or they just need a big shove in the back, and uh and uh and that's yeah, I I love the programs that we've been doing and uh like that. It it just pays dividends. We've had so many people on our programs that have progressed through either new opportunities in the organization they're in or outside. Uh, we've had uh um so many people that have reported so much benefits and growth, and it's um yeah, it's it's it's out there. If as I said, if you build it, they will come. Yeah, and if it isn't built, step up and go and and go and look for it. And uh that's how that's how you grow, that's how you learn, and uh it pays dividends every time.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

It has a gorgeous mentality, Jeff.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

If you don't ask, you don't get exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Now, Jeff, this podcast is called Ways to Change Your Workplace. I have one final and very important question for you. Jeff Hewitt, if I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 35:46

I would uh I would wave it over and stop all the harmful traits that are either by individuals or have been created by the team. Uh that's what you know, it's 2023 and um and we've still uh you know we still have problems in the workplace. We still talk about um bullying, we still talk about sexual harassment, sexual intimidation, talk about people uh you know, um that are just leaving um and uh and looking for other opportunities because of the way the workplace is. You know, one of the one of the things that I like, um I use this guy called Peter Drucker, who's the uh he's now passed away. He's uh he'd be he'd be over 100 now, old Pete. But uh I I like using his quotes, and one of the best ones I like is about leaders don't need to know what to do, leaders need to know what to stop. And um, and that's in terms of themselves. And I and once again I replaced leader with team members because everyone's got in the game, any workplace, the culture that exists there is a culture that they tolerate. Now, if they tolerate bad behaviour and the like, what are they doing about it? So it's not, yes, the leader has um more, probably more um uh skin in the game around it, but everyone owns it. So if I could make uh wave a magic wand, it's about doing that, you know. In the absence of um you know, waving a magic wand, it's about having those hard conversations with people and uh and the like and that. But I think I'd like to just get people to understand uh we've we've grown, we know all our technical stuff, or you're gonna learn the technical stuff wherever you work. That's the easy stuff. Yeah, you know, it comes back to that. I I use this thing called be no do, and I think you might have touched it on before about being your true self. Uh, when I deliver sessions on leadership, I call it be because be no be no do is a is a US military term, if anyone googles it, but the no is the easy stuff. It's the um the technical stuff, our our policy, our procedures, our legislation, our um, you know, and the like. We we we know that or we'll learn it. And the doing, the do is a practical application. Simple again. The hardest thing at all of all is a B, and that's being true to yourself. That's being true to yourself. And uh, I tell everyone that when I induct people, I say to them, our organizational values are really important. I want you to remember those. But in terms of that, Preno, you know, we have values like every other company has values, but we still have people that fall over and do silly things, do bad things, do unlawful things sometimes. But why? We have these values, why aren't they sticking to it? And it comes down to people aren't being true to themselves and living their personal values. So, personal values to me are so much more important than organizational values because if you are true to yourself, do a bit of GDP, good, decent person, good decent people, then you'll tick off the organizational values. So uh that's what we need to do. People need to, as I said, leaders and team members don't need to know what to do, they just need to know what to stop doing, and it's so it's harmful traits. And uh, so if I could do it with a wand, without doing all that discussion, that'd be great. But that's what's really important to me.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Beautiful. Jeff, it reminds me of a speech that I gave for International Women's Day this year, and I really talked about the fact that sexual harassment, uh, female homicides, you know, they are very prevalent in our society. And without people talking about it, without people taking action, the last statement I left everyone with is you are what you tolerate.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Exactly what you're saying. Jeff, I could speak with you forever and forever. I cannot thank you enough for this uh conversation and your time today to be continued potentially. And I'll see you tomorrow in your chat as well, Jeff.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Yeah, exactly. Look, I've really enjoyed it, Prina. I hope my voice wasn't too bad. I'm just getting over the cold at the moment, but uh um, but no, I've thoroughly enjoyed this. This is what I get, and I said before, I learned from these things, and the things that you've said today, I've taken a note of, and uh whatever. That's what it's about. So everyone, get out there and learn. Leaders don't stop learning, and uh, and it'll lead to success.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Perfect and simple. Thank you so much, Jeff. Sign up to my newsletter, which is detailed in the show notes if you stand against crappy cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams. And I'll see you in the next episode.