113. How women leaders can cut through office politics! With Jamie Lee and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_01 0:40

I don't have any species mind of nothing of the full thought. I want to give you a quick cost, which is meaningful and practical my friends, joining me. All of the way from New York is one of the best people to get into orders and funny functions. And have a perception of all things women in the workplace. It is so refreshing and such a different insight. I know you're gonna love it. If you've got any questions for us, as always, contact Jamie or myself via LinkedIn and via the details in the show notes. Until the next time, keep being brilliant. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace Podcast with myself Prina Shah, and I'm really, really pleased to be introducing you to my friend Jamie Lee, all the way from New York City. It's night there, Jamie. Thank you for joining me. Welcome. How are you? I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. My absolute pleasure. Jamie, you jump out to me, and I've got a teeny weeny intro to you, if I may. Jamie Lee is based in New York City, and Jamie helps smart women who hate office politics to get promoted and better paid without throwing anyone under the bus. Jamie also has her own podcast which you need to check out, and it's called Negotiate Your Career Growth. Jamie, I as we started, we had a bit of an intro to each other, and I feel like you're talking to Past Preena. I have so many questions for you today. Welcome. My first question to you is in your own words, what do you do and why do you do it, Jamie?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

I provide executive coaching services and I also uh deliver very interactive workshops, webinars, keynotes on the topic of self-advocacy and negotiation with a focus on women and minorities. Beautiful. Why do you do it? I do it because, like you were saying, I needed these coaching tools for myself. Early in my career, when I was an employee, when I was a director at a startup and working at a hedge fund as an analyst, I really struggled with self-doubt. I really struggled with hating office politics so much that I would burn out. I would literally get sick. I'm a highly sensitive person. And it wasn't until I realized, oh, there are tools to help you, help you with that. And I can also develop and I can build my skills in communicating, advocating and negotiating for myself. This is actually something anyone can do. It's no one is actually born a negotiator. It's a skill that we all learn. And I realized I need this so much for myself. And if I really need this for myself, there are tons of people out there, smart women who want to overcome uh the struggles they encounter in the workplace so they can feel more grounded, so they can better speak up, communicate, advocate, and lead.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Beautiful. Anyone listening, you are not alone. Jamie has been there and done that and talks from lived experience by the sound of it. So thank you so much. Jamie, today I want to talk to you about it's a long, long uh sentence. So, how women leaders can cut through office politics to get promoted and better paid, essentially, is what I want to talk to you about. Um, and like I said, we live in a patriarchal world. This episode is certainly not man-bashing, it's it's opening our eyes to the realities of the challenges and barriers that women often face within the workplace, and we want to shed a light on that. I have had many a personal experience to all of this and more when I was working in corporate land as well. So I really want to talk to you about the real issue of how women leaders can cut through office politics. Um, so to begin with, what is office politics? Can you provide a definition of office politics and how it manifests in a workplace, Jamie?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

I define office politics when as when people in positions of power use levers of influence to advance their own agenda, and most often when they're pursuing their own agenda that is not aligned with the organization's mission, you know, like the organization's goals and objectives.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Okay, very common.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. Across the board. This this is nothing new, this is something that everyone has probably faced throughout some part of their career, nonetheless. Um I talk about this in the concept of people abusing their positional power often as well, Jamie. And I think this is exactly what you're talking to as well. And often within the workplace, the higher we go up the ladder, the more we feel that we have to potentially prove. Um, and then therefore things can get a bit more murky as well. And we have many an example of uh office politics that manifest that we will get into eventually in this conversation. But thank you so much for defining what it is. So, an abuse of positional power, um, and using, yeah, I love what you said, using your power to lever uh and pursue your own agenda rather than the wider agenda. So, Jamie, I think similar to you, when I uh deliver interactive sessions, I always say to my audience, we'll be looking at it from three lenses because we often do me, my needs, we, us as a team, and then us. So me, we, and us, us as an organization or as a branch or as a division, because it helps people to bring them out of that individual mindset often. Um, and it sounds like you do very similar work to myself in addressing sticky situations within the workplace. Um, Jamie, can I ask you, how does the patriarchal structure impact office politics? We're getting into this, and then what role does gender dynamics play in navigating these landscapes?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

So great question. And first I want to address one thing, which is I think office politics exists on a spectrum. Yeah, okay, yeah, because you know, sometimes when let's say you are a partner at an accounting firm and you hire somebody that you used to work with at a previous firm, right? And you know them, you like them, you trust them, so you bypass the whole interviewing process, and the other you know, the person gets to join the firm. You know, arguably somebody could be like, oh, they use their leverage, they use their positional power, right, to get this person into the role. So there's office politics that happens very commonly when people just you know say, oh, you know, this is gonna just make things easier, right? So I don't see that necessarily as an abuse of power, right? Because sometimes we network on purpose so that we become liked, known, and trusted by decision makers, right? And then there is the abuse, there is a very flagrant, you know, visible, I mean, to some people, because the people who are abusing their positions of power may not agree. I'll give you an example. Let's say that you are uh you are the chief of a medical group, and you have never had a woman in a position uh in the chief position, and you had vice chiefs, like you've had vice presidents in the in the firm, but never a president, uh as a woman who is the president, right? And for some reason, there have been several vice presidents or vice chiefs who are women and they are exceptionally good at what they do, but somehow they get dinged for um you know communication style, or they get dinged because they don't agree, they don't buy in to the decisions of the the president. Yeah, right. And if they speak up and they say, you know, I this isn't something I'm totally aligned with, or or they veto something that the president wants to do, um, and then and then they find out, oh, this woman's promotion has been blocked, this woman's been put on performance improvement plan, or the I I have seen an example of um someone gets put on unpaid suspension, you know, and they get told you have to fix all these issues, and and these things like this is an example of bullying, like workplace bullying, right? An extreme abuse of power. But the way in America, the way you know the performance metrics are written, they're so vague, right? So it's interesting. Yeah, yeah. And also in America where I'm based, we have not had the equal rights um amendment passed. You know, the in the 70s, there was there was a campaign to have the equal rights of women acknowledged formally in the law, and it did not pass. And and the trickle-down effect of that is that when women speak up about workplace harassment, sexual harassment, gender discrimination, there's often this onus of well, prove it then. Yes, yes. Therefore, people are like, Yes. Yeah, and so then the often these cases they set a lot of court or um, you know, the the women who sue these organizations for uh gross abuse of power, they they don't win the case. So I mean the patriarchal structure, again, as you said, I think you know, you said it really brilliantly, it's not about you know, bashing men at all, it's about acknowledging how the entire system, like from how our legal system is set up to you know, you know, the preponderance of male, pale, pale people in positions of power, you know, Fortune 500 companies, about I think more than 70% of the C-suite positions are you know white men. So, I mean, it it's like we have to address the whole system and how it's been set up, right? And notice that it's set up in a way that makes it really difficult for women and people of marginalized identities to be able to really um speak up and uh and be on par, on equal footing to achieve that level of positional power with uh white men.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jamie, I have an example. So without breaking confidence, I'm obviously not going to name any names, but this week I spoke with an executive team, and you know, we're checking each other out, we're sussing each other out as to we can as to whether we can work together and I can support them. And I've been very honest about, you know, I'm a woman, I'm diverse, I'm younger than yourselves, and this executive team, there's five men and one woman on the table, right? So we had a we had a Zoom conversation and it felt like an interview, and um I called it out. You're all men primarily, and there's one woman in the room. What kind of representation in terms of thinking, in terms of you know, the voice, uh, also do you have on the table? And the CEO was very, very open enough to say and acknowledge the fact that yes, this table is primarily pale, male, and stale, his words, and you know, respect to him for being so damn open to it, even if I don't work with them, I love them. Um, and then you know, the voices of the people on the table as well are sometimes far more louder than the female voice, potentially, and that's exactly what I found in this case. So often our personalities are different and we react differently to I guess a male voice. I've been through it, no doubt you've been through it as well. Um, and vice versa, also, you know, that can be the other way around as well. So that was a really interesting example for me to observe and be involved with this year as well. So, yeah, there's so much around. So, for our audience who are listening, Jamie, I would ask them to consider to open their eyes to look at the dynamics in their workplace in this respect, to look at the representation, obviously, uh, within various teams, and then do women have a voice? Are they enabled to have that voice? I think is the other question I would ask. Um, can we go back to office politics? Are there any common signs or any hotspot kind of things that we need to look out for, Jamie?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

I think what you said is exactly something to look out for. Okay. Am I the only person? Because early in my career, I was once the only woman. So uh actually twice, I was the only woman at a hedge fund trading desk, uh, right during the financial crisis, and I was super stressful. And then after that, I became the only woman at the leadership table of tech companies, of uh startups in New York. And exactly what you said, my my clients also attest to this. When you are the only woman, it just becomes even more difficult to cut through that office politics because often when you are the only woman, or you know, they've just been, you know, sorry to say it, but I mean all boys' club mentality, and it's extremely hard to shift that. It's extremely hard to make meaningful change when you're the only voice, because when you're the only person, you're you're so busy managing your own mind. Oh, talk to me about that. Yeah, I mean, this is this is the reason why I became a coach because my mind was a mess. And um, I'm I'm laughing uh because now I'm just looking back on my younger self, right, with some affection. Right, I was not laughing then. Um, but yeah, I I would just feel so conscious, and I I know Prina is also a person of color, you would you could uh relate to you know the experience of feeling um what some psychologists call a survivalist reaction. Oh, okay, yeah. So when you are the only person who is different, yeah, it's kind of like being back on that schoolyard, and you know, people are the kids are calling names, and you don't feel safe, you don't feel psychologically safe. And so, you know, this is something a lot of my um IPOC clients have told me, they become hyper-vigilant. Yes, and when you become hyper-vigilant, that means that your nervous system is on overdrive, you're activated, and right, and so when you're activated in that way, you don't have as much access to being present, you don't have as much access to your creative genius.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Oh, yes, so it's already diminishing the way I am at work and thinking about my past self, absolutely, because there was this other crap in my head that you beautifully describe that I hadn't even considered. Yeah, and you know, okay, Jamie, I can talk about my own experience, then I remember um I look or I looked younger than I am, and walking into the boardroom or the executive room, you know, or the office to present, I always used to feel oh, will they listen to me? Will they take me seriously? There was always that that that voice, Jamie, that voice, oh, that was a strong voice constantly throughout my career, constantly, constantly, and especially you know, having senior roles where I led people and culture teams, and you're dealing with legal issues now. And when you are speaking to people about um, you know, you should do it this way and not that way, I was very directive, and you have to be. This is legal stuff. Sometimes I did get pushback. What does she know? You know, what experience does she have? Who the hell is she to tell me this? There was pushback, and that comes with a lot of loaded stuff beneath that iceberg, so to speak. Jamie, I'm gonna carry on from this thread of thought to the fact that women can go this way or that way, and I'm gonna talk about this way being women can take on tendencies which aren't their own tendencies, and you know, amp up the masculinity or whatever uh characteristics, or they can completely freeze and shut down. Jimmy, can I pick your brain up about the women who are especially a different persona? They are faking it in terms of being more masculine to fit in. Have you come across that? And what are your thoughts in relation to that as well? I've tried it. Ahaha, being there done that, same here. Let's talk, let's talk, let's be open then.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Yeah, um, and I love what you said that voice. Is it okay if I say a curse word?

SPEAKER_01 19:59

I'm always saying it, yep.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Okay, I call it the itty bitty shitty committee. Oh, talk to me. My very first coach told me about it ever since I've it stuck with me, the itty bitty shitty committee, that voice you hear. And the thing that I I want everyone to, you know, whether you are a man, woman, non-binary, whichever gender you are, we all hear the voice of the itty bitty shitty committee. And sometimes it's the voice that we have internalized from our parents, like wanting us to be safe. Their intention was to keep us alive, but they were criticizing us so that we would stay alive, right? And so we internalize that, and now we're criticizing ourselves. Yep. And then when we're constantly criticizing ourselves, and we hear somebody say not something that is less than perfectly uh validating or complimentary, now we're like, oh, I knew it. Yes, that dagger to yourself. Whoa, yes. Yes, yes, and but it's really what we're doing is uh confirming, right? Confirm is a confirmation bias, which is something that we all do, our brains all do that, right? Um, because it's a shortcut, and so we end up confirming unintentionally, you know, the worst beliefs, the worst limiting beliefs about ourselves when we hear criticism. And and I hear what you're saying, it can feel like it's a binary decision. I just shut down, freeze up, right? Go into the corner and hide or quit. All of the things I have done. Or you try to hold up your big girl panties and or you try to quote unquote man up. Oh yeah. You try to be masculine and tough and assertive and aggressive. Like one of the guys. Yeah. I've tried it. Like I said, I it's it's only very recently I realized I'm a highly sensitive person, which makes so many things like make sense for me. But back then I didn't know in my 20s when I was working on a hedge fund, and I tried to be like one of the guys, and it lasted for about two days, and then I just felt exhausted and sick because it was so inauthentic to I am.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah, absolutely. Can I flip it a little bit? I love this itty viti shitty committee. I have been in that committee for too frigging long, and I'm out of it. Thank God. Thank god. But you know, younger versions of ourselves who are, you know, who may not have been as confident, who may not have been as I guess secure in their job where you want to prove your worst, you know, you're trying to go up that career trajectory in whatever manner you are. It's difficult, it's really difficult. Jamie, I'm gonna throw another one at you to freestyle. So we all have masculine and feminine tendencies, okay. I within the workplace used to have often um far more masculine tendencies in terms of being direct, uh being assertive, being confident, which I was and I I believe I still am. And that didn't always go down well. Um, have you come across that and what are your thoughts or perceptions or insights on that aspect, Jamie?

SPEAKER_00 23:34

I I have more recently I've I've been thinking less uh in binary terms as feminine and masculine. Yeah I've been thinking more about how do you find the center? Yeah, how do you find the center on what seems to be a pendulum? Exactly, thank you. Yes, yeah, and so like for me, when I think about finding my center, my brain associates that with being grounded. When you're grounded, you're calmer, yeah, not as activated. You have your senses and your your uh wits about you, right? And then from there, you're more flexible to respond. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um the tools that I teach my clients is about okay, how do you regain that agency to find your center and then from which you can decide how do I want to proceed? Is this the right time to be a little bit more assertive? Is this the right time to put your foot down and say, okay, this is how it's gonna be, guys, whether you like it or not? Or is it the time to be more receptive and open? Yeah, right, because that is part of empowerment leadership. Sometimes you just gotta relax and allow yourself to receive the help, the resources uh from the people to whom you have delegated.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Beautiful, and Jamie, you're really talking about tapping into ourselves, our inner selves, that inner voice that's there. And within a workplace, we're so hit with meetings and busyness and this and that and deadlines and people issues. If you're a people manager, but often that that pause that that that moment is gone. So I remember when I used to work in the workplace, I used to have a little post-it note just with a pause symbol on there to remind me to chill the fuck out and pause as well, Jamie. And that is exactly what you've just spoken to. So I could come back to center and get grounded again and then decide how to proceed. Okay, right, beautiful, beautiful. Um, Jamie, so office politics are a thing, and you've described it beautifully. People um navigating it. Do you have any tips to maintain integrity while also maneuvering through these political situations?

SPEAKER_00 26:11

I think exactly what we talked about is a tool. Like what you just described, reminding yourself to pause is what I would call a pattern interrupt. Yes, thank you. Yeah. And the one thing that I I want to say is, you know, taking deep breath, deep belly breaths in the middle of the day, that can be a pattern interrupt. Like take a taking a deep breath into your belly, exhaling twice as long, and then from there deciding for yourself, okay, this is irking me, but is it is it is it a deal breaker, or is it something that I can just move on? Or is it something that I really want to address? Right? Because as leaders, as corporate leaders, we we're in those positions in order for us to decide for our decisiveness. Yeah. Um, another thing that's coming up for me is this is this is a common theme that comes up in my coaching practice, is that sometimes people feel burnt by past experiences of toxicity, past experience of you know, abuse, uh of being bullied in the workplace, right? Which is which is the really the the other spectrum of office politics, right? And and sometimes that nervous system activation, they have they haven't yet learned how to to down regulate their nerve nervous system so that they can be centered, right? And again, it might be, oh, you know what, I gotta vote with my feet. It might be I just gotta vote for myself and speak up and advocate for myself, or it might be I gotta vote with my tribe, which is how can I find a group of people I can really trust to get a better sense of more of a neutral objective lens on the situation, right? So those are the three uh key things that I would advise. Vote for yourself, vote, vote with your feet, vote with your tribe. But before you can do that, you want to also down regulate, yeah, even if it is like taking a quick walk around the street, taking a deep breath, right? Yeah, or or doing something um called peripheral vision, which is a super, super easy technique that you can do just about anywhere, even in the middle of a uh board presentation like or a meeting. You you can do something to help you get to a more resourceful brain state.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Jamie, you are talking, okay. I have a few clients that I have supported this year and last year who have had awful experiences within the workplace. These both of them I'm thinking of are women, senior, senior women. You look at them, Jamie, and you think, wow, super women. Okay. Internally, though, when they speak to me as a coach or no doubt to you as a coach, different voice altogether. And this different voice is a shattered voice. It's it's really unfortunate. So I really want to highlight the fact that bullying or toxic workplaces or hyper unhealthy masculine workplace cultures really impact women and other non-binary genders in a terrible, terrible way, where it stays with them for years after, in the form of, and I'm not gonna joke about it, PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. It is a real thing that really impacts their heads, it is awful, and that stays with people for years. Have you come across that yourself? And do you have anything?

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Yes, I have, yes, I have. And um, one of my mentors, I don't know, Carl Loenthal, she's also a feminist coach, and she has a podcast called Unfuck Your Brain. Yes, because for exactly the same, it's like we need to unfuck our brains from the impact of you know patriarchal conditioning of a sexist society that you know that makes it just so much more difficult for women for us to feel genuinely confident more easily about ourselves, to be able to speak up and own our voices in whichever volume tone it you know it is in. And um yeah, those those uh PTSD uh many of my clients I I get consultations weekly from people saying, Oh, yeah, I have experienced you know, some sort of PTSD related to a past employment, it's still haunting me, it's impacting my confidence.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yeah, haunting, beautiful word and perfect word to describe it. It haunts people, it really does. As wonderful as they might appear and glossy and wonderful externally, internally, there's so much more happening, which is really yeah, diminishing them from shining and being their best selves, you know. Oh, very human experience, yeah, totally, totally, and yeah, many, many face it and it sticks with many. Jamie, how does office politics affect overall workplace culture? And what steps can leaders take to create a more transparent and inclusive environment? Do you have any?

SPEAKER_00 31:39

We would love more transparent and inclusive environment. This is this is the ideal. We're all in and we are making progress, yeah, even though sometimes when we see the headlines, it feels like oh, we've taken you know one step forward and two steps back. We there is progress being made in in certain places.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Absolutely. Let me yeah, let me talk to that, Jamie. I don't know if you know. So one thing that's starting to happen in Australia, and I'm not completely across the legalities of the industrial relations laws, but one thing I'm really seeing is organizations have to now or are starting now to be transparent about their pay. Hello, hello, hello, hello, and alarm bells are plenty. Thank you very much. Because this is me going back to my old self, and I I'll use my own example of the ETBTCT committee that I was in, and I okay, there was a senior role above me that was made redundant, and all of those duties given to me, I called bullshit, I said, fuck you, what are you talking about? No, um, I have to do my role as well as their role. The response to me was Aprina, but this is a development opportunity for you. I walked, I was more than that, but there's so many people who are stuck in that kind of situation as well, often within the workplace, because from a workplace culture perspective, you know, budgets are tight, we're all now working, we're doing more, we're less, and all of that kind of stuff. So, from a workplace culture perspective, we've got to be really, really careful uh about parity. I'm not uh equality, that's something, and that's I want to pick your brain actually. I'm talking about parity here, and parity being fairness, and you know, not bullshitting people, but just being fair to people as to the entitlements that they deserve. Uh Jamie, I want to pick your brain about equality. So I have a thing, okay, and I picked this up from Jermaine Greer. You can love her or you can hate her, but it's a really fascinating concept, and she talks about the fact that why the hell do we want equality? Men are unhappy as they are anyway. Why don't we look at the system and look at the inadequacies of the system to actually address that and then work from there? So, you know, when many women talk about I want equality, blah blah blah. I'm like, Do you though? Do you want to be as unhappy as a man? That's another conversation altogether, another podcast. Or do you want parity? Is it more of a fairness issue? Do you have thoughts on the whole equality, parity? Do you have any opinions yourself, Jamie? How do you define equality? Okay, equality I define as giving me exactly the same as what a man has in terms of let's say, oh gosh, there's different expectations of men in a workplace as well, I feel, which we haven't even delved into because this is more female focused. Okay, let's talk societally. We still, generally speaking, the man is the breadwinner, or the man has to earn more than the woman, those kind of stereotypes that are often still chopped within society and within cultures. That's the kind of stuff that I'm talking to. So if we're trying to compete with that, it feels like a battle, you know. Whereas parity is what parity is more okay, the system isn't working, let's look at what's broken and let's have a fair system for all men, women, non-binary. So really breaking the system down because you earlier on, when we talked, when we started talking, you talked about our systems are old within the workplace. I mean, you know, the eight-hour work week, you know, the 888 rule, that was from the freaking industrial revolution. Things have changed so much now. So let's look at how things have changed so much. So back in those days when those working hour rules were implemented, it was primarily men in the workplace, not women. Now we have women in the workplace as well. Women on top of working, if you have kids, you've got childcare duties. If you're a carer for your parents or your in-laws or whatever, you've got those additional duties. So I know I know I'm being very black and white with this as well. So pinch of salt with people who are listening, but let's just compare a man in a workplace to a woman who is a carer as well as a mother.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Different, very different there. So help me understand, because I I want to understand this before I give you a well-thought-out answer. What would parity look like in that very specific situation where there is a woman who's got childcare duties when she comes home from work?

SPEAKER_01 36:43

We need to understand the human. Not that job title, not whatever else. Because the other big thing I'm talking about is work-life integration. Things have changed so much more, and that's what people want. So, Jamie, I could not apply blah blah blah to you exactly to your uh, let's say your equal peer. You might have different needs, you might need more flexibility because of your carer needs, let's say. You might need more time off than your male counterpart because you've got other shit to deal with in life. Bringing that into the picture and being fair with our needs that are external from the workplace as well. That's what I mean then.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Got it. I think I've seen this visualized in this way. I think here in the states, we tend to use the word equity for parity. Yes, perfect, yes, yes. And um, in this visualization in this picture, there are three animals, and each animal is a different height, and equality would be giving them all the same size stool to step on, whereas equity or parity would be height adjusted, height uh relevant, so that the giraffe would have a small no no platform, whereas uh the squirrel would have a much higher platform so that they're more or less on par so that they can all look behind the barrier and enjoy the game. Yes, perfect. You got it. Okay, so yes, I I think parity or equity is something that makes more sense, something that is more pragmatic. Um I think we're working hard, where people are making efforts to achieve it, and to to circle it back to the question you asked earlier about the impact of office politics and war culture and how can it be improved, I think the first thing I I want to say is promote more women, promote more people of marginalized identities, promote more non-binary people so that you you signal it's it's like totally owning that yes, when we embrace parity or equity into our organization, we become even better equipped to serve the society that is 80% not male, not pale, right? The whole world, the global majority is people who are not in these uh CEO executive suites, and the more you provide equitable solutions, more parity to a diverse um population of people, I it will drive bottom lines. The organization will make better decisions, and I have seen this because when office politics, when the power is really abused, I have seen leaders make decisions that were literally shooting themselves in the foot. Okay, not literally, figuratively, figuratively, not literally, but it's like they're shooting there, these people are clinging to positions of power at their own expense, at the organization's expense. And when the organization is not thriving, the community is not served, their clients are not served, and community and clients are not served, but the organization has a shorter life.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Um, we need to reflect the society which we are serving. Yeah, yes, beautiful, beautiful. Jamie, have we missed anything?

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Oh I don't think so. I can't think of anything right now. No, I'm trying to it might come come back to me at like 3 a.m. my local time. You're like, oh, I should wear this.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

I know, right? Okay, can I ask you then the kinds of amazing people that you're supporting, high level, what kind of themes are coming through at the moment in your work?

SPEAKER_00 41:00

That's a really good question. At the moment, I I see a range of different people. Uh, what's coming up right now is everything that we talked about. How do we down regulate the nervous system? How do we shift our brain state so that we're better resourced to handle new challenges, new or or evolving dynamics in the workplace? And how do we set boundaries in a way that serves the whole person, not just you know, career growth at the expense of your health, which is really your wealth? Um, yeah, and self-confidence and the and and then meeting that with practical self-advocacy skills so that you're really speaking up for what you want. Because if you don't speak up, they don't hear you, you don't get what you want, it's very dissatisfying.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Ain't gonna happen totally. I had a wonderful coachie who I finished with uh earlier this year, and I met three versions of her. Can you imagine? I met three versions of her. I won't name her name, but I met the real version, I met the family version, and then I met the the mind, the brain version, and I'll I'll name her. Uh, what can I call her? Her name was Cheryl, she had a different name, but she actually named that voice, and then when that voice comes to her head, she says, Cheryl, thanks for the message. She now receives it as data rather than oh my god, that overwhelming. Okay, that confirmed I and crapper, blah blah. You know, so she's she's she's befriended, Cheryl. Um that was just so good. I was like, Yes, I work with three people, and I'm so pleased that she opened up to be honest with me about the mindset that she has in relation to these three voices in her head as well. Yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Sounds like brilliant coaching. It was the best.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Yeah, Jamie, I'm gonna put your details in the show notes because I know lots of people want to reach out to you. But before we finish, I asked my guests a very, very important question. My podcast is called Ways to Change Your Workplace, Jamie. Ms. Jamie Lee, if I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Well, the workplace has completely changed in the last couple of years. Uh, many workplaces are now fully remote or hybrid. Um, some companies are mandating return to office. And you know, I I was thinking about this question, and something kind of strange came to my mind, which is that I think cubicles should come back if you're vacuuming. Again, highly sensitive person, so like noises, you know. Um I I I used to work at tech startups, and and and the engineers would get up and they would play with a drone in the middle of the office, and that bothered me so much. I I got irate and I was like, this is really annoying. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Or they would be playing focus time is really affected in an open plan office a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Yeah, or they would be playing ping pong or pull in the office. I'm like, the noise is bothering me, and I have found it really distracting and hard to focus. And so, yeah, I'm this might be a controversial opinion, but I think if we are coming back to the office, give us some privacy, give us some space, give us some quiet.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Personal space is so important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Yes, yeah, and and and allow us to wear whatever we want.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Exactly. Come on, Jamie. I could talk to you forever. Uh, I want to thank you so so much. It has been wonderful talking with you, and thank you so so much. I really enjoy this conversation as well. I wish you all the best. Thank you so much.