SPEAKER_00 0:33

I'm here to help you to find ways to change your words to day service why because we spend more time in our waiting days with our order that we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. During this podcast, you can expect to mix all three interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with myself, your host, Preena Shah. And I'm very excited to bring to you today my friend, Karen Thomas Bland, all the way from Malibone in London. Karen, welcome. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Oh, thank you, Prina. I am really well for 7:15 on a Wednesday morning in the UK.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Good morning, Karen. Good morning, Karen. Allow me to introduce you. Karen Thomas Bland is a global board level advisor, partner level management consultant, and a non-executive chairwoman with over 27 years of experience in creating breakthrough strategies, transforming and integrating organizations. Karen has an excellent track record in creating sustainable long-term value creation for FTSE and Fortune businesses and private equity funds. Karen is a trusted advisor to boards, executive teams, and investors. And Karen is the founder of Seven Transformation. Karen's clients are huge and varied, and they include IBM, Accenture, EY, KPMG, WPP, RELX Group, and many private equity funds. Karen lives in London, as I've already said, and operates globally. Karen has worked across five continents. Karen has featured in many publications, including the Financial Times, Association of MBAs, and Management Today. Karen is a chartered organizational psychologist and associate fellow of the British Psychological Society and has a certificate in corporate governance from INCIAD Business School. Karen has been a non-executive chair and director for numerous private equity-backed companies and has evaluated numerous boards. Now Karen is very talented, and I'm really happy to have you here today. I've been following Karen's work for gosh since 2020, we were saying. So I've been semi-connected with Karen since around 2020. And Karen specializes in making uh boards better. And this is something Karen, or one of the things that you specialize in. And this is what I really want to talk to you about today. So in our conversation, we're going to be talking about signs of a dysfunctional board and how we can find solutions to it. Tell us why you do what you do and who are you, Karen?

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Freena, thank you, gosh. Quite hard to follow. Thank you for uh introducing me better than I would have done myself. Um, yeah, I think you summarized it well. I have a bit of a portfolio career at the moment. So, non-exec chair on private equity backed businesses, and I do transformation, MA integration and strategy for the large kind of listed um space. To answer the why I do what I do, I suppose what gets me out of bed in the morning is going and transforming businesses, whether that's at the board level, whether that's further down the organization. I like taking an organization from A to B. I enjoy working with them on that kind of journey and seeing the changes kind of come to fruition. Everything in my career has been about that. And the fact that I started life as an organizational psychologist means people is generally at the heart of everything that I'm trying to do. I'm super passionate about people, culture, and how we can make organizations and boards better.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Brilliant. We have so many synergies, Karen. Now, we're talking about making boards better, but before we talk about that, what are the signs of a dysfunctional board? It happens so much, people so much talk about it. I've got many a client dealing with this. What are the signs of a dysfunctional board, in your opinion, Karen, and your special expertise, in fact?

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Yeah, Prina, it's a really great question. Look, and you know, let me start by saying no board is perfect, and we're all on a journey to try to, you know, improve and become more effective. If I think about the signs that are, you know, really kind of quite common. The first one I'd start with would be when you look at your board agenda. And quite often you look at the list of topics, the amount of time you've got, and you're like, wow, this is a lot to cover in quite a short space of time. So I think the first sign of an ineffective board for me is just an agenda that is bursting literally at the seams. Because the second area is uh about focus. So again, uh, but boards have a tendency and can have a tendency to look backwards, and it makes perfect sense. It's where you've got your performance metrics. So you look back and you look at how the business has performed, perhaps over the last month or the last quarter, and quite a lot of the meeting is focused on that backward look. Now, again, from an effectiveness point of view, whilst that is super important, there's a really important um element to focus on the future, the future strategy, what's happening in the marketplace? Is our strategy still fit for purpose? Are we looking at how our customer base is changing? So there's that future element that needs to be brought in. My next area is about how in touch board members are with the core organisation. And by that I mean, do you really know what the customer base is thinking and feeling? Do you really know how the brand is showing up on social media? Do you really have a sense of the employee base and what they're thinking and feeling beyond just the traditional starve attitude survey? So I call this around being a little bit out of touch with the business. If I come on to then some of the dynamics within a meeting, what can often happen, particularly as boards get refreshed, certainly in the UK, in a listed sense, there's about a nine-year term, and after nine years, you either have to move along or explain why you should stay. So there's this constant sort of rotational element. What can often happen as new members come in is you get these sidebar conversations. Maybe the old guard are, you know, clubbing together, maybe the new people coming on are clubbing together. And what you end up with is a bit of a fragmented board. It could not always around newness, it can be around other things. Maybe you've got digital natives versus non, but you end up getting these splintering going on. The other one when you observe a board is uh and one that I, you know, would have on my worry list or my red flag list is about boards that are in constant conflict. So you want a healthy debate, you want punchy conversations, but if you're in constant conflict and firefighting, the chances of being able to address the issues of the business, I would say, you know, do decline. And linked to that, and I, you know, I uh smile when I say this, this veneer of collegiality, there is a sense, and you know, I think to step back, board roles are very highly coveted everywhere. There are not many of them, uh, they're highly competitive. And so when you finally secure that role, you want to make a good impression, you don't want to be kicked off, you don't want to have a controversial point of view, you you want to secure your seat, basically. And so, in that, you want, you know, you you go along, you get along. And I've seen at times that can be a reluctance to actually say what you're really feeling and ask, you know, those challenging uh questions. And I see it with questions linked to that, you know, there can be a time where questions are asked simply just to make a point rather than to further the debate. You know, good questions bring a new angle on an issue or they further the conversation, but they're not there just for you to find your voice in the meeting. So it's about thinking about that contribution. The other one is, and you we all hear this one, it's like, how often do I see my board members? I think if you're turning up on a monthly or quarterly basis, and that's probably the first time the organization has seen you that month or that quarter, um, you're probably not that in touch with the organization. You're a little bit more remote. And so, and again, there's good strides made here, and more and more there is that connectivity between meetings and getting involved in customer visits and you know, meeting stakeholders and shareholders, but there is that connectivity point that really needs to um sort of be addressed. And final one from me, uh, and this is a controversial one, I don't think it went in my last paper, is about when CEOs don't genuinely want a good board. So when they hire people for you know cosmetic reasons, yes, it looks good from a diversity point of view, but they don't really then take advantage of that and utilize their board in the right way. And so you'll hear the term, you know, cosmetic board used, and you certainly don't want to find yourself on one of those.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Can I add one more, Karen, if I may? I think you can. And this is something that's a repeat uh occurring issue for a lot of the CEOs that I support, and that is that boards tend to get too involved in the operational and there's not that division that's supposed to be there. Um, would you say that that's a valid one to add to the list?

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah, I think it really is true, and I think it links to that past and future as well. I think if all you've got is you're down in the weeds, in the data, in the performance, you're not really lifting your head up and looking at the macro perspective. You're not thinking about the organizational strategy, you're not thinking about those macro changes that are happening in the environment. How do you need to evolve the business? So I think that's completely true. And it's a common one I hear, you know, it's get straight into the weed, straight into the detail. But it's actually the value of the board is being up above that and really thinking about it in the bigger context.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Totally. And Karen, when you were talking, I was thinking about looking at the board as a team, which it effectively is, right? And um effective team working, which we're talking to really here. So in a world of increasing complexity, uh complexit complexity, how can boards ensure that they create an environment of psychological safety for everybody involved, trust and cohesion in their meetings? And it's really good that you've got your psych background that you bring to all of your work as well, because it's so needed, especially with boards.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Yeah, it's a really good one. And let's pick up on psychological safety first. Yeah, it comes back again. Do people feel comfortable to take an interpersonal risk? Ultimately, isn't it? That that is what this is about. Yeah. So to create an environment that people do feel one is is about the role of the chair here. So as a chair to create that environment, it's often about being vulnerable yourself. So being very open and transparent with the board and say, look, I maybe got that wrong. I didn't quite mean that. And you know, so I think showing your own vulnerability can start to create that environment. The second one is when people do take a risk and maybe, you know, raise their hand and say, I'm not sure about that, and give an alternate perspective, even if you disagree, don't make them feel like they've done the wrong thing. Because then you role model to the rest of the board, please don't take a personal risk because the consequences to you won't be favourable. So I think that's the other one. Third thing is, I think, and I do this on my boards as well. We have very open conversations about psychological safety where we talk about do you feel open? Um, if not, am I can I do something different? Is there something in my behaviour that makes you feel like not being open and honest? And so, and often a good time to do this is around your board effectiveness review time. So every board tends to at least have an annual or biannual effectiveness review. A really good question to ask is do you feel safe to take a personal risk on this on this board? Um, and the answer to that can often really spark that conversation about if not, why not? And what can we do? But you're right. You want the board, it's a really interesting tension. You want the board to be, as you say, cohesive and a strong team, but that they feel able to disagree and they feel really comfortable with tension and they can work through that and see it in a in a productive way.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Absolutely. So again, I'm linking this to a team. You know, often when a brand new team is formed, we'll have some kind of get to know you session. And uh with boards, often that's so effective as well, isn't it? In terms of not only getting to know the individual and all of the wonderful accolades that they come with, but from a psychological perspective, this is my working style, this is how I communicate, this is how I need to be communicated too, this is how I listen, this is the stuff that stresses me out, this is how I am when I am stressed. And for people to verbalize that themselves and for then others to listen and comprehend that and remember that, I think that completely changes the course of how any team, including a board team, operates. Would you agree with that, Karen?

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah, I would completely. And one little tip I do have is I find it really helpful to have informal time with the board, not in a formal board meeting. So that could be, you know, a board lunch, a board dinner, a board breakfast, where there isn't a structured agenda. We're not trying to all, you know, overpower and show our, you know, great skills. It's just about getting to know you, what's going on in your life, how are things for you? It just builds that understanding of knowing each other and feeling more like a cohesive sort of group.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah, it's that human-to-human connection. The relationship is so important, isn't it? At that first level, always with any job that we work in. Wonderful. Now, you talked about jam-packed boarded agendas being an issue. So let's talk about that. How can boards strike a balance between the comprehensive discussions that they really do need to have and the time constraints? So it's quite the conflict, isn't it? Because there's a time limit and there's so much to discuss. How do we address this jam-packedness in that respect, Karen?

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Yeah, Prina, great, great question. Couple of things. So one is about the quality of the material that's sent in advance. So back to the past and future. One thing that all CEOs can do is provide a board pack that gives all the board members the data points they need around performance and make it clear that the assumption is that you've come to the meeting having read that, and therefore it will be a discussion. It won't be the CEO presenting all of that data, which takes a tremendous amount of time. So that's one way to manage it. The second one you can do is flip the agenda. So classically, board agendas are the first bit is all about the management team presenting operation of the business, and the second half tends to be the strategic topics. You know, should we expand to Australia? Should we buy this company? What's you can flip it around. So if you do your strategic topics first so they don't fly off the bottom of the agenda, and then your operational performance second, that can give kind of a little bit more time. The other one is there's a tendency on board agendas to have pretty much the same one each time. And my advice would be really vary it depending on what's going on in the business. One meeting you might deep dive around people and culture, the next you might deep dive around sales and marketing. So vary up your topics. Don't feel like each time you have to cover um everything. And again, I'd I'd put this back on the chair role, you know, to manage the agenda. It's about making sure you make sure everyone has a voice, but then you bring it to a conclusion, you summarise that section and then you move it on, as opposed to just letting a conversation you know roll roll on for too long.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Oh gosh, and that's quite the skill as well, too. It does feel like herding cats, especially when you've got so many passionate people in the room. You want to stop them and you want to get to that conclusion stage as well, don't you? So I understand the pain point from the you know chairperson's perspective. Absolutely so. But I love the fact that you talked about flipping the agenda as well. Genius. Uh, so do the strategic stuff first and then the operational presentations and whatnot that happen. Um, so then you have that, you walk out of the room with decisions having been made and not just a question mark in the air and to be continued kind of you know silence afterwards, yeah. Yeah, okay. Um you talked about also, so I'm just looking back at my notes about being in touch with you know the real client base. So, how can board members stay in touch with uh company's client base and reputation? So, what strategies or practices can help them stay in the customer shoes effectively and the people's shoes, you know, the employee shoes, also, Karen?

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Yeah, Prino, good great, great, great question. Uh to take the kind of um customer piece first. So I think one is when the um company is having customer get-togethers, maybe they're having seminars, maybe they're having workshops, one, it's an opportunity to go along and informally chat to the customers. And I do this a lot. So just to go out, it's not about monitoring performance, it's not, it's just about genuinely having a conversation, hearing what they think about the business. So I think and and understanding their business. So I think one is taking those informal opportunities. Two, I think it's if the business doesn't already, just making sure they do have a methodology for getting good customer feedback and insight and ensuring that does filter up to the board at certain points. So we get a really good view on sentiment. I mean, it sounds an obvious one, but I have met board members who don't follow, for example, the company on X or they don't follow it on LinkedIn, they don't generally do a Google search. And so one thing is just keeping up to date with the sentiment around, you know, the socials. What are people saying? On Glassdoor, what are employees talking about? It's tapping into those mechanisms again from an employee base. It's about not just looking at the staff attitude survey findings, it's do they have an employee forum? And can you be a bit of a fly on the wall at that? Just sometimes walking the halls. And I know obviously this is more challenging in the hybrid working environment we find ourselves in now, but I think it's just getting a sense, walking around, sniffing the air, what are people doing? Are they productive? Are they happy? Having a wander round and a chat. I think you really pick up those cultural symbols and nuances that you cannot just get from a kind of straight survey. So it's really about putting yourself out there. It's being present, it's being visible, both with the customer base and employee base, and just being receptive, asking, you know, good, good open questions, and also making sure one thing I'm really passionate about, and I think is a gap, is that the board can sometimes feel completely disconnected from the organization. So, how can you build that connectivity? One way is you have different people come and present at the board, you invite members in, or maybe you have a board apprentice, or you know, there's ways to make that connectivity between the board and the organization feel more joined up than perhaps it it can sometimes can sometimes be.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

That's uh, you know, your last point is a really important point because from an organizational perspective, you know, you send your best only to the board and you hide everyone else away. Um, not saying that everyone else is not the best, but if we gave more people an opportunity to actually go up and present to the board, because often is the case, let's say that the paper is sent to the board and you know to the executive first and then to the board to talk to. And it's the people on the ground who've been doing a lot of the work in relation to writing. The paper and writing the information for the board, so why not bring those people from the ground to that conversation and just build those relationships? And I imagine it would be a richer conversation as well because the board could deep dive further into the details that they need to and get the answers immediately that they need back, also, Karen.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Yeah, and also it gives people a development opportunity. I mean, what greater way is there to learn your presentation and hone speaking to a board than going and presenting your work? I think that's a fantastic opportunity for people's development as well. The best.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Now, you also talked about boards being stuck in the past, yeah, you know, overdrive into the past. So, why is it crucial for boards to focus on the future rather than dwelling? Look at the past, but don't dwell on the past. Um, can you share examples of how this forward-looking approach can benefit companies and what this forward-looking approach could look like?

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Yeah, definitely, Prina. I mean, it'll bring it to life with an example of a professional service board that I sit on. I think, you know, in the beginning there was this tendency, and we'd had a tough time. So, in tough times, the tendency to look backwards and look at the performance can get even stronger. Like, why haven't we delivered this? What about this? And so, tough periods do bring that out. One of the things we deliberately started to do, though, was to say, look, we are going to come out of this difficult period. How do we want to show up to the market, to our customers, to our employees after that? The main frustration every board member will tell you worldwide is they don't get to spend enough time shaping the strategy. And so that is a critical role. The board's role is to shape that strategy. Yes, the exec may be producing it, but the board's role is to question, challenge, shape, and ultimately hold the executive to account for it. So it's having that strategic conversation that makes sure the board and the organization stay relevant. It would be very easy if you had a backward view to become irrelevant because you're not focused on what is changing. I mean, how often are boards thinking about the macro environment, what's really going on? Do we have all the insight we need? Is our customer base changing? What's our competitor set doing? All of that is really important debate around shaping what does that kind of future look like. And the board should have that future lens. The board should be looking two, three years out and saying, ultimately, what do we want to become? In private equity, we we talk about, you know, our exit, what's what's our exit strategy? What does the next three to four years look like? How do we ready ourselves? There's an element of making sure that's a critical part of the board agenda.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Yeah, and you know, so linking back to the work that I do with executives, there's a huge missing piece here as well, from an executive perspective, in that they don't have that aspirational look two or three years ahead. Generally speaking, generally speaking, not everyone's like this, but you know, the organizations that are having more trouble, let's say that I support, have the focus on now or the past on stuff that went wrong. And my question is all right, well, where are you going? Have you defined where you're going from an executive perspective? And if they haven't, then obviously they're not going to be feeding that kind of information to the board. So okay, I I see the missing links here now, Karen. So much so. Definitely. Now, with boards, you also talked about those sidebar conversations because Karen, let's say you and I might get on far more just from a personality perspective, or we might have similar uh thinking patterns, or whatever. So you and I, let's say we're on a board and we've got sidebar conversations happening. They do create divisions though, and it is very palpable. So, how can these divisions be addressed? And what are the consequences of these sidebar conversations behaviour as well, Karen?

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Yeah, Prina, it's a good one. I mean, it's inevitable as humans, we like some people and get on better with some people. That is just, you know, a fact of life. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with building a relationship with someone on a board, having a dinner. I think where it tips over into becoming an issue is when those conversations don't make it to the full board table. So if you and I were off having a conversation and that wasn't picked up by the rest of the board, then potentially we are missing something because the chances are that's really important and everyone needs to have a voice on it, and everyone needs to be aware it's a risk or it's an issue. So I would say, and again, I put a lot of emphasis on the chair's role here, it's making sure that all the debates that are happening are brought to that main table, or you delegate it to a committee. You know, if you've got a bigger board or a bigger organization, you might have an audit committee, remuneration nomination committee. So you can absolutely delegate it to those committees, but even the committee work needs to flow back to the main board. So I think it's about being sensible. I think it's about, again, as you say, recognizing this is a cohesive team and recognising that everyone's got a different like opinion here. It's back to that, you know, we we talked, don't we, about diversity of thought. We want all thoughts, ideas, and suggestions in the mix on all of the topics. But it's not to say, you know, you can't go and have a relationship on a one-on-one basis. Of course, that's natural, that's human behaviour, that that's as long as the meaty topics and the risks are being issued, uh, you know, aired and talked about in the main board.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Beautiful, beautiful. Um, you also talked about um frequent conflicts, and you know, conflict is normal, but when it's unhealthy conflict, that's a real red flag. So frequent conflicts can be a red flag in that uh sense. What proactive steps can boards take to address underlying issues and foster a culture of that productive debate, productive healthy disagreements?

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Yeah, it's a really good one, Prina. I think I think if you've got a board that's in constant conflict, yeah, what it probably means is there's some unresolved issues. So probably at some point someone felt disenfranchised, didn't feel their voice was in the debate, and therefore the issue simmers along and the board remains at conflict. When I see high conflict board situations, probably one of the best steps you can take is bring someone independent in to perhaps facilitate a session. It might be a board effectiveness review, it might be, you know, bring in an experienced person in to come and facilitate a session and get underneath the issues because it can be quite hard to fix those if if everyone's part of the problem, right? Um, but it's important to do that because otherwise you're probably running with a very ineffective board of people who feel an underlying sense of dissatisfaction, but they're not feeling able to talk about it. Comes back to our psychological safety point, and you want to address that, you want to knit that in the bud, and you want to make sure that that doesn't continue to fester. So I would say get right on top of it, bring in independence where you can and be open and honest that there's an issue here, you know. And I think it's important to kind of air that in the meter and say, look, we don't need to resolve it now, but we know we've got an issue. Let's think about how do we resolve this because it's not going to be effective for any of us if we were to continue. It's it's really been open about it.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

We have to address it because, on the flip side, if we don't address it, resentment will fester. And resentment is one of the worst things ever in a team, whether it be at the board level or any level, yeah, that is the worst thing. So, linking to resentment potentially, you also talked about the concept of that veneer of collegiality. I love the way you said that on boards. How can boards strike a balance between a healthy agreement and an honest uh debate? Now, talk to me first about what that veneer of collegiality means for people who might not comprehend what that is, Karen.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Yeah, I mean, Rina, in simple terms, it means we're just getting along on the surface. You know, we're all pretending everything's fine. It's back to the point, you know, I made about we feel like we've got this coveted board position. We don't want to rock the boat, we want to remain positive and smiling and that everything is fine. But underneath there are probably unresolved issues. It's back to the same point, you know, it's getting beyond that veneer. So that you should come out of a board meeting feeling like there was a punchy conversation, it was good debate, there was lots of different points brought to the table, you've got a way forward, but it shouldn't feel so nice and smooth that we're always agreeing and smiling at each other and saying this is fantastic. You've probably then running into a problem and probably about it at a risk. The other thing I'd say relates to both our points is the board almost for me is like a microcosm of the rest of the organization, but the board does set the tone at the top. When you've got a conflicting or we're all being nice to each other, mentality at the top, that infiltrates down the CEO, the CFO, take that culture down into the organization, and and it just breeds that kind of behaviour again. So we I also think the board is uh is setting the tone, setting the culture. And if they're not doing that in in the right way, the consequences for the rest of the organization. But it again, this this veneer of collegiality, it's it's it's about bringing your honest open self. It's it's not you're not here just to agree and get along and smile and you know keep the CEO happy. You're here to bring you know that bit attention to the to the conversation and ask the difficult questions.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah, beautiful. Um, and you know, so we've talked a lot about the chairperson and their responsibility, but then every single other person on the board has quite the responsibility as well. And especially when we're talking about this veneer of collegiality, we need to have that self-focus, we need to have the honesty and self-awareness as well as to how we're coming across and how we are impacting the wider team, the board team that is, and our impact, as you said, beautifully said, on the rest of the organization, because this completely is that trickle-down effect, and it is very insidious. It gets through, it leeches through the organization, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 32:42

It does, it does absolutely. Yeah, it's one to be, it's one to be addressed. And I think it's about asking yourself, you're completely right, Prina. It's not just the chair's responsibility, everyone has a responsibility. It's really about reflecting yourself and saying, what is the role I'm playing on this board? What am I here? Who do I owe a duty to? You're there to represent the shareholder base, the employee base. You're standing up and asking the questions on behalf of them. So it's not, it's not just about smiling. Equally, you know, if you are wanting to raise a difficult point, you can say that absolutely nicely. And you know, you want to maintain a good relationship. It's certainly not about being aggressive or putting people's backs up, but it is about being honest and open. And, you know, we if we think about the boards that have been in crisis or indeed, you know, have collapsed the organization, it's often when group thing happened, no one dared raise and ask the obvious question. And I would always say to anyone, ask the dumb question. It's fine. There is no consequence really in the grand scheme of life. Ask it, you know, ask the dark question that no one wants to, because at the end of the day, it you're you're there to do a job, and that's part of your job is protecting the organization.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Totally. So when we're talking about asking questions, sometimes questions are asked because let's say I have an agenda, I've got, you know, I've got something on my mind, uh, and I'm asking this question for my own, I guess, agenda needs. So asking questions out of curiosity clearly seems essential. So, how can boards shift from asking questions to make a point to genuinely exploring new perspectives and challenging that status quo, as you said?

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Yeah, I think again, Prina, the the board evaluation can help here because if you do have people who are, let's say, always asking the same question, making the same point, and just you know, perhaps just wanting their voice to be heard. I think that's important feedback to reflect back. We we we sometimes think feedback is for not the board, it's for all the people in the organization. Having a good three, 60-degree feedback on a board is is so important, where you can say, look, you know, sometimes I don't think the questions are quite forward in the debate. I think we've revisited a lot of the same questions. How do we address that? You can bring, you don't need to single anyone out, you can bring it to the table. So I think one is just surfacing that this is about being curious, it's about furthering the debate. Again, come back to the chair. The chair's role is to move things along that are feeling the same. You don't want to be having the same conversation. So if the same questions from the same individuals are cropping up, how can you kind of move that along and open up perhaps a different debate? The other thing you can do is ask um specific questions of people. Yes, we rely on a lot of people to contribute, but certainly for quieter perhaps members of the board, how do I draw them in? Well, let me ask them a question. What would you think? What happened when you worked at Ets? How did it work there? There are ways to start to generate that little bit more um in you know, interesting kind of conversation. Um so I think that's the way the way to manage it. And and you know, there can be times where as a chair, you might take one of the board members on the side and say, gosh, I've heard you know your point about X. And you know, I think we've we've we have debated that. Is there anything else I can do to make you feel that? And you know, perhaps address it more on a one-on-one basis. But board shouldn't be afraid of feedback. And if if we feel like we're revisiting past topics, again, let's table that and say, I think there are more um demanding, challenging questions we need to be asking of ourselves. And there's also a bit of reflection, again, you know, you've got a wide span now of board members. It used to be a sort of retirement career, and now thankfully, we're getting more and more people across the spectrum. So it is about bringing all of those um voices in and asking the different and difficult questions.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Absolutely. So when you were talking, I was really thinking about the importance of that chair role and the kind of skills that they need to have. Um, obviously, all of the skills which you know uh one-on-one for a board, but then the facilitation skills and you know, bringing the best out of people and knowing when to end that conversation and move on, and knowing when to pull out, you know, the best from the quieter board members as well. And from a board member perspective as well, um, all of them have to have the best kind of questioning skills and listening skills to truly poke and prod effectively and respectfully.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Yeah, it's so true. And the listening comment you made there, Preen, I don't think can be emphasized enough because again, particularly when you're new to a board, you want to make a contribution, you want to get your voice heard in the meeting, and all of that is normal, and getting your voice out in a meeting early is is a very good um tip. But listening is so important and listen to what's not said, you listen to what's said, but what what are the things that aren't being talked about? And when things are being talked about, what's the body language, what's the feeling, what's the sense that you're getting? That listening and being able to absorb that, I think cannot be underestimated. And I do see that people sometimes come out of the gate into a board and they're like, right, I need to contribute, I need to ask questions, I need to get my points of view across, but the listening perhaps doesn't uh come as forthcoming at the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah, yeah. Their skills are so huge. They're essential. Soft skills are hard skills, as I keep on saying. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

So true, so true.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Karen, you've really given some ideas about board members' involvement outside of board meetings, and that is a totally critical factor to build bonds and to really get to understand, you know, the way of the workplace, the client base, and the brand of the organization. So, how can boards, especially in private companies, let's go there, ensure ongoing engagement and support?

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Yeah, so it's a great one, Preda. I think one is you've got a formal role going to the board meetings and accept sort of that, you know, below the line. So then you go, how else do I contribute? So I think one thing as a board member you should always be thinking about is maybe what's the two or three areas that I can really add value on and agree those, you know, with the chief exec with the executive team. It may be that they're going through a succession planning, it may be they're expanding to a new geography. Find those areas where you've got expertise that you can dip in and then facilitate you having other conversations outside of the board. The other one I would say is committees are a good way to do that. So, you know, get on a nomination or remuneration, or if you've got a financial background and audit committee. So put your hand up for those kind of committee roles. The other is be be out and visible, be out in the client offices, be out in customer sites, customer um, you know, workshops and um kind of sessions where customers come together, maybe around a new product launch. So just be out and visible because you're tuning in to the organization, the culture, and what's kind of really going on. So I would say as much as you can. Now, of course, this is not a full-time executive role, and I'm very conscious that this is not going every day into the organization, but it's fine in those moments where dipping in can be really um, you know, can be really valuable. And and you know, actively, you know, board members should want to do that because um particularly in the beginning, you want to get to know and under the skin of the organization because your performance then on the board is so much stronger. If you're trying to advise without really understanding the organization, often it will miss the mark, and the CEO will say, Well, the board's not strong enough because they're not they don't really know us. And so you've you've got to get under the skin and you've got to stay close enough. Um, but not so much that you're in executive territory and you lose and in the it's back to that tenuous, you know, sort of fine line. You're independent, you're impartial. So you've got to maintain that as a core, but get to know the business, ask those questions, be out and visible. Um, and and I think you then find the role more rewarding. I mean, there's nothing less rewarding than turning up on a monthly or quarterly basis just to look at the data and have that conversation. It will be so much richer with more data points.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Definitely. You talk about getting under the skin, you know, so to speak. And I've got a friend Leanne who talks about listening to the lyrics of your audience, whatever they are, you know. And once we hear their voice, hello, how much richer is my contribution as a result? Because I really understand that other side as well. I might not agree with it, but I understand it at least, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's just so enriching. Um, one final question. Well, two fun two questions, but one final one on boards. Can you share insights on how boards can proactively work on improving their effectiveness before anything hits the fan, before a critical situation that demands unity and collaboration? Please, Karen. This is a big question here.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

Yes, how do you become more effective? It's a great, it's a great question. You're right to call out because boards really come into their own when you really need them is a crisis. So you don't want to get ineffective in in a critical moment. So I think one thing is just being very open about the effectiveness conversation and tabling. You don't need to wait for an annual effectiveness review to say, to assign, you know, 15 minutes at the end of the meeting to guys, just how could we be more effective? What's working for you, what's not working for you? Again, we do that on one of my boards surface, lots of great ideas that we could then sort of take forward. So one is don't don't wait for an annual effectiveness review, have effectiveness and all as an ongoing dialogue. I think bringing independence in though to the effectiveness conversation is a is a good one. I think having someone independent who maybe comes and observes the board, maybe has a series of questions, one-on-one interviews. I think having an independent look can often surface things that you don't know. It's like the hidden things that you're just not aware of. It's like as individuals and our awareness. So I think that is also um one. I think the other is all the things that we've talked about in terms of the red flag. So it's about the agenda setting, having the right material, circulating the right minutes, having the right conversations, guiding around the right questions. It's it's it's having all of that up front and saying, you know, we know these are common red flags. Are we falling into any of those? What are people's thoughts? So it's I think it's having that open and honest conversation, but calling things out. I mean, if if this is a team of people that's not working, then fixing it. Don't don't wait, don't don't let things drift, get on top of it and figure out what the right kind Solution is there. And I think the other thing about effectiveness is boards will become more effective the more diversity we bring. And I think the way we've approached this is, you know, first, and this was a global, wasn't it? You know, first it was fixed the women and gender issue, fix the ethnicity issue, fix the diversity of thought. We need to be broader now, we need to bring all of that into play. We need to bring age, sexual preference. There's all the dimensions of diversity. And, you know, we we need to think about effectiveness in terms of who's around that table. If you've got a sea of white male 50-something faces, the chances are there is not enough variety and diversity in in the room.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Absolutely. Karen, you have shared so many gems, and I cannot thank you enough for really deep diving into all of my poking and prodding questions to you. Uh, I'm gonna put your details in the show notes. But before I ask you my final, final question, is there anything that we've missed in this conversation, Karen, that you feel we need to talk about now?

SPEAKER_02 45:08

I mean, I think for anyone listening, I think it's putting your hand up for a board. I mean, I I joined my first board, I was 32, so I wasn't, you know, anywhere near retirement age. Yeah. I would encourage people not to think of boards as 50-something, 60-something, you know, generally male, although more women have come through. I think we've got to change our visual representation of the word board. And so if you're listening to this, boards need younger people, they need digital natives, they need people from different backgrounds, they need people who are neurodiverse. We've got to be able to make braver choices. And so, my my ask always to people is put your hand up. There are there are many organizations, there are charities, there are private-owned companies, there are agencies, there are you know big listed businesses, but there's there's a lot of opportunity to start putting your voice onto a board. And I think from a career perspective, I super valued it. So the just having a different like role and perspective was so important in my career. I would just encourage people not to feel like boards of something. I'll wait until my the end of my exec career and then I will step into it because I'm pre-retirement and I will do this for a time. No, I think think about it earlier on would be my advice. As long as you can manage it with your executive responsibilities, which generally you can, and you can make that work if you're, you know, sort of passionate about it. So that would just be my ask to your listeners, you know, think about it. If it's something that you're interested in, don't feel you need to wait.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Okay, let's ask you another question. So you've talked about put your hand up. What does put your hand up mean? So let's say someone is really interested, someone listening today is really interested, and you've given them so much to work off today, Karen. I cannot thank you enough. This person is really interested in joining a board. How do they even begin?

SPEAKER_02 47:04

Yeah, great, great question, Freena. Well, I have written an article about 10 steps to getting on a board. So I'm I'll link to that to you so you can link it. So that that would be one. But generally, find out what sitting on a board really means and think about your why. So, why do you want to do it? Once you've got that, think about the type of organization you want to join. And once you've got that, then start to have those conversations, typically to help you shape your material. I mean, you do need a board CV, you can't fudge your executive one. I think you know, get your get your marketing materials ready and test them out. I can tell you want it. Whatever you go out to the market with initially is rarely the right thing. So you go out thinking they're really going to buy me because I'm an expert in transformation. No, no, they'll buy you for something else. So a friend of mine, very experienced businesswoman, had run big businesses and they bought her for digital marketing. And it was something she did 20 years ago, but that was really important. So it's really funny, but you've got to find the hook in your experience that they resonate to. And then once you've done that and you start going out and getting interviews, it's about listening to the feedback and building. But it's it can be tough to secure a first role, but it's it really is possible when you've done your homework.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Yeah, and know that there's a lot in store, so you've got to be serious about it because the expectation on you is huge, then, and you have to contribute, as per everything that Karen has just shared. Yeah, so there's a lot involved, it's not just I'll go to a meeting every now and then. There's loads involved.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Exactly right, exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

I have one very important final question for you. So, this podcast is called Ways to Change the Workplace. Karen Thomas Bland, if I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace? You could be as creative, as uh controversial as you want. What is one way you would change the way of the workplace, Karen?

SPEAKER_02 49:08

Make braver hiring decisions. I think we still hire in our own likeness. We still hire because the person's like me, they went to the same school as me, we feel similar together. I think we've got to be braver. And that can be on boards, but that can be down at the executive and all the way down an organization. I think we've got to be more open to difference, more open to new, different ideas, and we've got to challenge what we think something looks like. What does a CEO look like? It doesn't have to be white, male, harvard. You know, we we've got to broaden out our what our immediate brain goes to when we hear the title CEO, board member, chair. It's brave, braver hiring decisions is is the one for me. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Karen, so many gems in this one. I'm gonna put all of your details in the show notes, plus 10 steps to get on the board article that you're gonna flick over to me as well. I'll add all of that. Thank you so, so much.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

Thank you, Freena. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

How good was that episode? If you liked it, be sure to share it with a couple of other people. Also in the show notes are details about my newsletter. Keep in touch. I send a newsletter out around once a month. It won't be spammy, it will be very practical. And if we're not connected on LinkedIn yet, we must be connect with me on LinkedIn. And on Instagram, I am prina.shar. I will see you somewhere else or in the next episode. Until then, goodbye.