120. Tackling Workplace Loneliness with Louise Johnstone Forster and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:46

During this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Drap yourselves in Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah. And I'm really, really excited to introduce you today to my friend who I've known for quite a while now, Louise Johnstone Forster. Louise, hello, welcome. How are you first off? I'm good, Prina. Thanks so much for having me. My pleasure. Louise, I'm going to do a bit of a personal introduction to you rather than your bio and everything. Because I feel like I've known you for a while and I've been following your wonderfulness over the years since we met a long time ago. So allow me to introduce you to Louise Johnston Forster. Louise, I met, gosh, years ago at a networking event in Perth by our mutual friend, the wonderful Daryl. And since I met Louise, I just thought, wow, this is someone I need to get to know more. And Louise, I really feel an affinity to you. Louise has studied anthropology. I studied sociology in the UK. You, you know, UK studied as well. Louise is really interested in the human condition, much like myself. And she goes, yeah, she goes over and beyond. So Louise, I know you have a very strong social justice heart, and the kind of work that you do is just wonderful, wonderful. And um I reached out to Louise just before last Christmas because Louise wrote an article about loneliness in the workplace. And oh my gosh, that really struck a chord with me. And loneliness in the workplace is a thing. So I want to talk to you about that today, Louise. Welcome. Thanks. Long, long introduction. Now, Louise, welcome. In your own words, what do you do and why do you do it first off?

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Question. I love the intro. Thanks, Karina. It's nice to have something a bit broader. Um what do I do? I think um one of the um statements I like, it's probably on on you know my bio or my LinkedIn um description, which is I just want to make an impact in my community. So I think that's probably a good starting point because most of the things I end up um gravitating towards, you know, uh hopefully results in that. And um it comes from um something I came across years ago and I can't remember the source, but that was that throughout your life, you know, you you potentially build a CV or a resume, which is kind of this list of things that you've kind of technically done, and they're they're a bit you know, maybe visual and often work-related. And then uh, but at your eulogy, uh when you die or when you have died, it's um it's it very rarely crosses over with your CV. So the things that are talked about uh very rarely going to be, you know, your qualifications or your work experience or you know, the conferences you spoke at at your eulogy. So um I've kind of since I came across that, I think it was at least 10 years ago, I've kind of thought, well, throughout life you want to be contributing to your CV if you if you want to be in the workforce, but think about contributing to your eulogy, um, which is kind of weird. And I and I you know that some people get really uh funny talking about end of life, but of course I work in the senior space, so I also also like you know, um I guess uh poking the bear by introducing something like that. Um then we can have the conversation about why don't we talk about something that's inevitable. So having an impact on the community, um and that has uh meant that I've worked in um community services, really, human services, worked with people. Um, and so in the kind of I guess client customer groups that has been often people with disability, people uh maybe channel experiencing mental health challenges, older people uh who may be vulnerable and might need more support, um, and in the mental health space also uh addiction, those people experiencing um addiction and their families, and that's um through a board role or chair role. Um, and then you know, broader than that, you know, when my daughter was younger, I was on the committee at schools, and you know, it's another little way to contribute and um you know bit do bits of volunteering here and there. So I think you know it's it's about people, and when we come to the workplace, I think my leadership style is very much about people. We're in human services, you know. I've not had too many roles, a little stint in banking in the UK and a little stint running a scuba dive business. Other than that, um, I know two two kind of slightly off-filter roles. Other than that, they've been very much working with people who work with people. Um, so looking after staff and volunteers and creating an environment where that's healthy and safe is really important to me too. And that's obviously an area you know that you're really interested in.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Absolutely beautiful. And Louise, at the moment, what is your role? You're very humble, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Thanks. Um I am CEO of Advocare, which is an organization um supporting the rights of older people. Um, and I'm chair of Palmerston Organization, which is um an organization that supports people um through addiction and and their families. Um, but and the approach to that very much is shifting to um addiction being a response to trauma. That's that's interesting to see the evolution of that. So very much about these days about trauma and mental health. Um, I'm also a mum to a near 18-year-old, which is interesting. Um and uh yeah, yeah, have a have a good kind of network of um friends and other contacts that you know get involved in other things in. So a few hats.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Beautiful, beautiful. You're a beautiful human. And so, alluding to your last points, you've got a wonderful network of friends and colleagues and all sorts. And today I want to talk to you about the the problem, the the real life problem about loneliness in the workplace. And I love the article that you wrote uh pre-Christmas, and I want to really expand upon that. So, first off, can we just start with the basics? I want to understand loneliness in the workplace. From your perspective, and I know you've done lots of reading in this as well. How prevalent is loneliness within the workplace? And what are some common signs or manifestations that individuals might be experiencing it?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I might start back when I got interested in loneliness, which is probably uh five or so years ago. So probably um, I think maybe 2018, it was when there was a minister for loneliness appointed in the UK. So that year I my ears pricked up, and it was late in that year. And um, over the Christmas break in Australia, we have that's our summer break. I put the call out on uh my professional networks on LinkedIn and my you know uh on Facebook at the time, as um more social network. So for me, there's not loads of crossover in those two networks, but on both networks, I put a call out and said, I'm really interested in loneliness. Um, and I'm thinking of doing a podcast. Um, so I had a podcast um series, the organization I was working at the time called Chorus. The Chorus Voices was the podcast we had, and I put a call that said, I'm interested in loneliness, I might do an episode on loneliness. Yeah, and was blown away by the response. So, you know, over the three or four weeks, um while that was kind of um out over the summer here, I had responses from about 20 people and and very um proactive, generous responses from people saying, I really want to contribute to this. So it wasn't just passing comments, I suddenly had like a lot of people who really felt passionate about wanting to talk about this. And because I have generally worked in the senior space, although Chorus uh did offer or does still offer uh support to seniors, um, people with mental health and disability. Yeah, um, so I kind of thought, hang on a minute, this is bigger than I uh anticipated.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Have to stop here. So in the end, I I spoke to I think I think it was nine people. Um, I got some input from others, but I sat down long form with nine people. So I ended up you know around an hour mark talking to each of these nine people, which meant I ended up with I think between nine and ten hours of audio, which has a podcast presenter and editor, you'll understand the daunting um a lot. So I ended up needing a bit of help, and that's the only um podcast we I outsourced to get some support with. And we um we came up with a structure and it turned into a three-part series, which was what is loneliness? Um what why do we feel lonely was the second uh episode, and the third episode is what can we do about it? So there's those three episodes, and I don't think any of the nine people fit into the category, if if there is such a thing, I hate categories and silos of you know, an older person receiving services or a person with disability receiving services or a person with mental health, although I think it's quite prevalent, you know, with with all of us, you know, one in three of us will experience some kind of mental health. So I guess the realization was they were people just like me.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

And um, so some were colleagues in in in the uh field, a couple of CEOs. Um there was uh a couple of people you know that I come across while while studying, either my MBA or another governance program, and then just people like I I would call it coming out of the woodwork, let's say, but the majority of the people I spoke to were professionals and they were in that kind of working age, you know, they're they were between 30s and 50s, the majority, a few outliers. Um, and I learned so much in those nine or ten hours. I feel like I learned about myself. Um, there were some real moments of just real heaviness. Um I didn't, you know, the podcast wasn't a generally a long-form deep podcast. I'm not a counsellor. Probably was a little out of my depth. Um, learned more about vicarious trauma since. So um I think you know that there was an impact on me. So it's pretty profound. Um and yeah, I I I um talked to people that I think they generally um they had experienced loneliness in a certain um period of their life, a couple of people longer. So one person or two people had uh chronic illnesses, okay, and that had impacted their life in a you know, I guess a long-form way. Um there were a couple of people that had had, you know, I guess uh they were there were geographical moves actually. So, and we know that in Australia, particularly Western Australia, we have a lot of migrants. So a couple of the people spoke about that that move in their life, um, had them experiencing a period of um profound loneliness, which they may not experience now, or when I interviewed them a few years ago. Um, and that was very much about being uprooted and having to start again and not having you know deep connections. And you know, both of them actually had small children at the time. So they had moved, and then partners may have had very busy jobs, that was maybe why they moved. Um the illness was really interesting because um these people, these uh, you know, one was a long-term illness, one was one that um was very much Lyme's disease or similar from a bike, so from an in from an incident. And so they would have had jobs whilst all this was happening. So, you know, I I I think I heard from them about it's almost like um they would go into work, maybe put their work self on or their work hat, but underneath their their life experience, there was profound loneliness. Um so I think it taught me that never take anything for granted, and you know, every single person that you see in any you know shadow form um could be experiencing something um that you know nothing about. And I've seen some lovely illustrations. I've got a few favourites on social media, and there's one of um I think she is English actually, and it's uh kind of um digital illustrations. There's a picture of a line of people at a bus stop, and then it's an English bus stop, and each person it's got um, you know, found out this morning that someone's passed away, um, didn't get that job. Uh, next person, you know, was really struggling with uh an eating disorder. And it's basically all these people just standing at a bus stop, and you could look at them and say, you know, there's just a bunch of people, but every single one has a story. It's gonna be goosebumps right now. Every single one has a story, and everyone's addressing something or dealing with something or working with something in their life. Um and so, and the other another thing that I uh or a statement quote that I quite like is that you can feel lonely in a room full of people. And so I guess if we're thinking shifting to the workplace, which is your question, sorry for the long-winded carry on. I work in human services, so all the organizations I'm involved with are people supporting people.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Um our service is people, it's uh as I said before, don't build widgets or make widgets. So I know the people that I work with and and also show up myself, um, acknowledging that life happens. And you know, whilst we're at work, um relationships start and may finish or may have you know bumps in the middle of them, people die, people are born, um, people, yeah, it's financial situations change, people's health situations change. Um there are so many things that are happening, and so yeah, I think um we need to just understand that and that not make any assumptions, um, because I probably think I made the assumptions before doing that series of um interviews taught me that these are people that I knew in in some shape or form, some were, you know, didn't know very well, some I knew a little, I thought I knew a little better, but I came out wow thinking, wow, you know, be curious and be kind, because yeah, I know I've experienced all sorts of things that have really impacted me. And uh there have been lonely times. Um I think if you're out of the workforce for any reason, for an injury or or having a child or all sorts of other things, that can be very lonely as well. So yes, this is I think it it can impact in so many ways, and let's not make any assumptions.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

There's so many facets there, and when you were reeling off the you know, various, I mean, this is just a few things that you reeled off, there's so much more. I was thinking, yes, okay. So when I rose up the ranks, you know, in the corporate hierarchy, I really did feel lonely because then I had to have that separation from my team, but then you know, working in people and culture, working in HR, I had to have separation from the organization just to remain impartial. And it was quite uh lonely right there. As a multiple migrant, my God, I have yeah, faced loneliness at various levels um with the various you know cultures that I am involved in. And then, yeah, through different life changes and periods of life, um experiencing loneliness has been definitely a factor for me. And then the other thing as well, oh, but Prina, you're strong, you can get through this, and those kind of statements as well, you know, especially when you're feeling low and lonely, you say, No, no. Um, so I want to I want to expand upon that in terms of loneliness and the impact that it really does have on us. So I've been doing some research also, Louise, and you may well have come across Dr. Vivek Mercy's work.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Haven't you will send me on a rabbit hole, no doubt now. I will look into that love.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

So he has written a report. So okay, let's let's let's give everybody some context then. So Dr. Vivek Mercy, he was the Surgeon General in America in 2014 and beyond. There's some controversy. When Trump came in, he didn't like him and he sacked him, and then Dr. Vivek Mercy came back. Long story, Google it, go down your rabbit hole. But the things that I have picked up that I really want to talk to here, Louise, and this is exactly your language as well. So his study is so thorough. He talks about the fact that there's an uh epidemic of loneliness in the United States and globally. Um, and lacking connection can increase the risk of premature death to levels comparable to smoking 15 cigarettes a day. What the hell?

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

And then he talks about the fact that our epidemic of loneliness and isolation was long before COVID. This has been going on for a while, and yours, your studies, your work has been pre-COVID as well. So this is not brand new news, you know. Um, Mercy also warns that the physical consequences of poor connection can be devastating, including a 29 increased risk of a heart of heart disease, uh, 32% increased risk of stroke, and a 50% increased risk of developing dementia for older adults. Louise. And then it goes it goes on, and it's similar vein to what you've been saying. It says that, and you can feel lonely even if you have a lot of people around you, as you exactly said, because because loneliness is about the quality of your connection, so that's something else as well. And then he goes on there's there's so much, but the last thing I will say is loneliness is across all generations, all age groups, all demographics as well. And then he goes on to say that people are spending less time with each other in person than two decades ago. And his report uh stated that this was most pronounced in young people aged 15 to 24 who had 70% less social interaction with their friends. And you know, that's thanks to technology, which we're gonna talk about shortly as well. You know, the benefits and not so great things about uh technology, but there's so much there. So, Louise, anthropologist Louise, I want to talk to as you know, sociologist Prina now. So, Louise, shit happens in society. You are well aware of this, I am well aware of this, everyone is well aware of this. Yet, from a workplace perspective, we don't tend to think, okay, well, that's happening outside our door. This is happening inside our house as well, from a workplace perspective, right? So I think there's that bridging, we need to bridge that gap there, which is why I'm talking to someone as wonderful as you and learning all about loneliness. And then imagine that's the societal impact that we're talking about externally. What about the impact on employee well-being in terms of the workplace, you know? So if we're talking about the workplace context, productivity, uh, being present as well, all of that is such a huge factor, Louise. So I've just reeled off a load of extra stuff at you and stats and just fascinating and horrible stats.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

So much there, and my brain's going firing, so I'll try and pace it so that I don't kind of do this to a brain jump. Um talk to me. What do you think? Well, firstly, acknowledging your point about your experience, Prina, and um I just wanted to pick up on that. Thank you for sharing that and acknowledge. Um, even though I talked to lots of people, you know, when you talked about being lonely in the workplace and your reasons, it made me um remember that before I became a CEO, someone had said to me, it's a very lonely role. CEO, you don't have any peers in your organisation. So um, and I would agree uh into my third year as a CEO, um, it's a lonely job, and I have been lonely. You don't have colleagues, you have everyone reporting to you, and you report to a board, so you're kind of caught in the middle, and you have other peer CEOs, but that's you know uh different. So acknowledging, you know, that um people might assume that, you know, as you said, we're strong, um uh outgoing, and we've done successful maybe on the outside women, and we have felt lonely, and we have times when we feel lonely. So I think it's really important to acknowledge that. Um the health impacts, um yes, I've come across that. So I don't remember Vivek um what's his her name again? Vivek Murphy. Viv Vivek Murphy. I didn't remember the name, but I definitely have come across that, and that that was picked up in that podcast series. and in other you know um uh work that I've done. Uh so we are social beings. Right. We've only been industrialized and socialized for you know a few yeah hundreds of of years, um thousand a couple of thousand maybe but for millions of years we've been um you know uh more on the savannah and we had to be social animals to survive. So yeah we and I think some of that we we forget we wonder why we get social anxiety and we get very uh stressed when relationships uh are under pressure and we're not feeling accepted or belonging and that is because it's it's inbuilt in us you know for millions of years that you know our ancestors only survived because they were they're able to cooperate um you only have to kind of uh lose electricity we're talking about the heat earlier but um and uh you know there'd be uh you know things happen when you realize hang on a second we take an awful lot for granted in um modern society when you actually have to fend for yourself you know food water shelter heat um you realise that actually you can't do that alone um I was watching alone the program alone Australia and these individuals have to survive it's actually a lot of work to survive and interestingly I think I watched the Australia alone and pretty much every uh person uh left the main reason that from leaving there were a couple of people that were slightly unwell but I think the majority of the 10 you know eight out of ten left because they were feeling uh the longing for their people and they just couldn't handle any more the um the being alone it wasn't you know so much about survival that and the the two people that uh you know the remaining and the Australian one um both you know really you know kind for people and some of the comments they made is just I just miss my people so for me I remember just kind of you know feeling it viscerally that we are not meant to be alone um so so we're we are you know driven to uh um collaborate and and work with others and so we feel real sense of rejection if the group or individuals kind of reject us and I think that's how it can definitely show up at work. And of course you know we're all quite different um although you know people do tend to hire the same when you've worked in people and culture and HR but if we want to I think a vibrant and healthy and efficient workforce we need diversity which means we're all quite different which means belonging might you know take a little bit more work. But yeah if we if we have got people that are in those situations where they're not feeling like they belong um and they're feeling like an outsider it it will impact their health and um you know during COVID in the aged care sector where I'm you know my day job is um we saw this um quite interestingly where the immediate reaction was infection control and so we then had you know people in aged care um facilities who may have been you know locked in their room for weeks at a time because there was a serious infection control. Yeah um that actually the impact on their health was massive and detrimental because they were socially uh isolated already experiencing those sorts of things in a situation like a residential aged care home but that being then further in lockdown uh you know exacerbated that and you know to put it bluntly loneliness killed people more than the infection of COVID um throughout some of that period and I think that you know really demonstrates to us you know the impact um of it um but yeah well I mean yeah there was so much in in what you said there I think you know what what can we do about it I think we just um need to be really uh human and kind and acknowledge that um you know we are um multifaceted and um I I feel grateful that I work in the human services sector because I don't have you know widgets as a uh a a KPI goal and you know say well I don't care about you as a person just pump out those 500 widgets today. We still have you know KPIs and goals but um interestingly the new legislation around um safety and psychosocial health I think has been really interesting for us at work and I've used it a couple of times uh you know with our board and with our funders to say yes those KPIs that KPI there may be a challenge to meet and I also have obligations and we all have obligations to ensure that stress uh and work expectations and all those psychosocial uh risk factors are not exacerbated. So uh I we may not reach that KPI if that means putting people under psychosocial risks to get the KPI. So yeah I think balance absolutely so I think in the workplace situation is actually helpful and it's we're in our first you know probably years since December 2023 of that legislation. But it was going to be really interesting to see how employers manage that. You know I see friends and you know others in different sectors like construction for example yeah they've got a long way to go uh so yeah there's there's there's so much in there but um yeah being human and remembering what it means to be human I think is a place to start.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

That's massive and you know in the workplace we've got around five generations working under the same roof now and we're also different in terms of our needs but then we're also similar in terms of our needs as well from that belonging perspective. And the article that you wrote really talked about how we can have reverse mentoring we can connect with each other in a different way you talked about breaking down generational barriers in your article especially you were you know aligned to that given the work that you do and then fostering strategies for connection as well. So within a workplace perspective and I know you're all about organizational culture as well you really have to look at your organizational culture to see whether we are enabling belonging or whether we are excluding you know you know it could be unintentional as well. And then the other thing we haven't talked about is the different cultures that we have within an organization. And some cultures are very connected cultures and some are very individualistic cultures and you know everything in between as well and for people who want to go down another rabbit hole please please please if you want to tap into this aspect look at Hofstedt's cultural dimensions and that's another tool that you can tap into it's a free resource for you and what Hofstead did is he studied cultures across the world long ago and he's got this tool now where you can type in India and Australia and it will come out and it will give you a comparison of well Australia is individualistic and um India is a collective culture. It will talk to you about the feminine and masculinity elements of the culture it will talk to you about the power dynamics of the culture as well and how they you know respond to power as well. So it's fascinating so if you really want to take belonging and inclusivity within the workplace to the next level look at it from that wider lens because I think Louise and I'll be really honest a lot of diversity equity and inclusion measures right now from what I'm seeing have the best of intentions but they're lip service at the moment we need to delve deeper we need to open that wider can of worms to look at all of these studies and all of the wonderful research that's out there and then apply it accordingly to our organizational culture because like you said your organization is all about the people others are building cogs whatever whatever you're doing you still need your people they're still at the heart of your organization and to make it more human what that is for you you need to determine what that is uh linked to your own organizational culture.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Louise I want to ask you about technology and uh loneliness the good the bad and the ugly I've got some opinions I um was listening to a podcast or listen to podcasts every every chance I get you know in the in the car and walking in the morning but I was listening to one recently around connection and around the the key components of connection um and which lead to that feeling hopefully of uh belonging and um it's like three-dimensional when it works and so even though you and I now are using technology we're in real time so we're getting feedback from each other verbally and a bit of body body language from the you know waist up um on on our uh kind of post-COVID new way of communicating um but we're able to you know um uh respond based on you know the response we've seen and then it's you know dynamic um so in in uh actual person it's even height more heightened because we could we we actually get energy from each other in the in the same room and yeah we got for that full kind of um body experience and you know the uh comments you like or the sayings like you know I could feel the tension you could cut the air with a knife and you walked in is evidence even people that think uh energy is woo-woo that it does exist. Um and so in-person is kind of your most rich form of um communication and then it kind of gets uh there's probably a spectrum and and I would say things like um text messaging when it's not in real time and you have it's just for words, you've got no tone, you've got no nothing else and even perhaps like comments on a post, you know comment the post was done and then 12 hours later there's a comment another 12 hours later a comment um you know things like losing context. So I think technology is great but if we miss um or we don't think about the things that are really important in communication and connection which is you know that ability to really uh engage and respond and and uh feel what's going on um then we could we could think that we have contact with you know 10 15 20 people throughout a day again feeling lonely with people around us and this is what younger people are doing so the research is showing that uh younger people um you know under 25 particularly uh have a preference for um texting than in person and some of the research findings are because it can be more predictable they can sit and think about what they write and what they respond but then then they're not getting the chance to um adapt and and engage in real time and understand what human connection is all about. So I think um I love technology. I I was looking at things like this you know platform we're using Zoom more than 10 years ago in education and we were seen as these kind of crazy crazy techie heads then and of course COVID just changed the world and most people now use something along these lines um but I think they're also dangerous because if we rely on them purely that's problematic. And at the moment um advocare we're having an office refit so we're all uh not in that main office and so we're all a bit hybrid working from home working in the in a uh shared space in the city a little um but suddenly you know that um all of those things that you talked about are front of mind for me and that we have a staff meeting next online so I'll be bringing this up which is you know we all work differently we all have different expectations and we we need to have ways to check in with each other because one of my team might be not okay today and how how will we know um and sometimes people might say oh I don't want to check in very often but actually we have a duty of care. So yeah technology is good bad and ugly um and all the things in between it's probably how we use it and and thinking more you know thoughtfully and deeper about how we use it.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Yeah because okay oh so much to respond to there. So before we pressed record on this uh interview Louise told me I'm working from elsewhere and you said I've been displaced so even that language is strong.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

I don't know if you remember you said I've been displaced that word but yes because I was trying to work out this this in environment that I'm in uh technologically and physically and yeah I'm and in someone else's space so there's that sense of am I you know intruding which I'm not but yeah there was lots of feelings going on there.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Yeah yeah it's huge and then in relation to technology it does it can have beautiful connections I want to talk to that first off so for me and my business I quit corporate life during the pandemic and I have to say yes thank you so much to technology because that has really helped me to uh connect with wonderful people uh meet wonderful people so you know things like Zoom uh LinkedIn but there's an act to it you've got to first off technology is good but you've got to have those social connection skills you need to learn how to use your words you know first off you've got to have that without that it's really difficult. So then talking to the youth aspect of things you know who uh prefer things on their phone or yeah less in person that I feel it it takes people away from the social cues that you were alluding to you know we can read each other's uh energy a hundred percent so I completely agree with that as well so if you can't read those cues it's gonna be even more difficult when you enter a workplace to connect with people and therefore you're potentially making your own self lonely as well so that's a good that's a you know a concept there one of my friends who is also a business owner she lives in Canada now and she said that her son she's so proud of her son he's got a job in Silicon Valley and just killing it doing so so well however she had an issue an issue with him in that his whole work is remote it's all he can work from home and everything is through tech and she's saying to him no no no go into the office just one day a week have that human connection and his response to her is nah mom I'm good I don't need it so interesting in terms of the different generations and the different needs we feel that we have as well but those social cues and you know learning to connect with each other and all that kind of stuff only happens when we are in person and when we learn by trial and error oh my gosh and you know I've got good stories and bad stories there as well of young Brina. But we learn so through those social cues. And then technology from an older person's perspective I really want to talk to as well and I'm thinking about my mom here Louise so uh she has been socially isolated for a long time pre-COVID there's mental health issues there's different stuff there yeah living in the UK my dad passed away a long time ago so mom is alone alone in the house so in our childhood home she's still there and I've always been concerned about her and then pre-COVID my sister bought her a smartphone and I thought what are we gonna do here? But my gosh my mum has just connected with so many people across the world her old school friends her old teachers you know family members who are in India who are in Kenya who are you know beyond in the UK as well all over the world and she's just got this richer connection with others so technology has really helped her in that respect as well so pros and cons of technology 100% absolutely so and yeah my mum's example is an interesting one just for my observation purposes but from a workplace perspective now like you said we've got technology at our hands and we need to really look at the systems that we use and whether we are effectively using them you know we can't just rely say only on teams for just you know everything. Definitely not no we have to determine what works for us and I think that conversation is often missing within the workplace and now Louise you've heard of it everybody's heard of it in Australia. There are conversations going around you know legal conversations about the right to switch off from work yeah and that might be legislated soon. So the right to switch off from work from technology do I work nine to five yes usually most people do but then your brain my god does your brain switch off after five o'clock we've got so much so much so much there Brian because this we could talk for hours we're gonna struggle to fit it in I reckon um I can I pick up on a couple of things you said when when you were I was thinking about Darren Griffin the the guy that uh it was our mutual connection connection to begin with in that my first uh connection with him was virtual and that's indicative of a a number of people that I've um probably initially connected with uh virtually and then it's turned into an IRL in real life you know working professional relationship and and how interesting that is and how how much richer that has got and then I was thinking about your mum um and and all these people around the world and that made me think about using technology as a facilitative tool.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

And there's a group in um the South region of Perth or of Metro called switched on seniors and um it started with a woman called Sheena Edwards who um as an older not that old older person started using technology and just wanted to share you know um I guess a hurdle of using the thing the smartphone or the device and and connectivity you know working the internet out. And then once that's working what that offers as a window to other things and um some amazing work that group have done is basically um opening up a world because I mean you know our our kids of today can't imagine what a world was like pre-internet, you know everything on demand that these older people suddenly you know might be able to access a whole back catalogue of a musician from the 1930s that you know brings joy and so I think yes technology has opened up a world of possibilities as a tool so that that was one thing I wanted to pick up on and particularly in the um our older space. Then you were talking about workplace and I was thinking um really thinking about what we're trying to achieve with a communication and what was most appropriate. So um I uh have I guess I get I get um triggered let's say I'll be completely honest and triggered when I read an email and I kind of go this is not an email or this shouldn't be an email this is a conversation. Yes. So you know the you know email or text message uh when it's used and it's it's not it's never going to work I don't think so anything that requires a lot of thought or or multiple attempts at editing or it's too long is probably uh a flag that it's shouldn't be in written form because it needs that that dynamic you know response. And if it isn't an email it's uh because someone thinks well it's just quicker to send the email I'll bet you about the dollar it'll require three weeks of relationship repair which actually a conversation that took longer than the email at the time will mean that you haven't got three you know weeks or more of repair. So there we yeah there were a few thoughts that kind of came up while you were while you were talking.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Yeah yeah fascinating it's really interesting um do you have any other thoughts on leadership's role in building connection from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Yeah I mean I think uh so I've been advocated you know coming up for three years and um I have realized at the moment, you know this year, 2024, a lot of my role is being president and role modelling and um you know connecting um at different times I think the CEO role has different uh priorities it can be internally focused, externally focused uh depends how you know where you are with your strategy and change. But yeah I every time I'm in the office which is you know hopefully about three times a week I mean for the day um out and about don't often work from home but I will do a walk around and that probably takes me 10-15 minutes. Some of it might just be a good morning and then some it might be a bit longer. Now that's pretty um um non-negotiable for me and it has paid off in dividends in that I don't do it for the payoff but um I do it for connection but by doing that consistently it it's it sends a whole bunch of messages and out of that come a whole bunch of other things um which benefit the organisation and those individuals and myself um and when it comes to doing social things you know some people might think it's frivolous or or not a priority but it's those corridor conversations and those water cooler conversations and the chat over lunch and we can't dictate what people do in their lunch break but actually those leaders that will spend time in the lunch room when they can show to others hey I'm human and I I have non-work related interests too and I can bond with you as another person. So all of those opportunities I think are really really important and I and I know that I can frustrate sometimes the layer of people you know below because they look at me and they like we should be doing. I think I've probably learned in the last few years being is as important as doing and I don't want staff um feeling like they need to do do do 7.5 hours a day or sit at their desk which is presented up and sitting there is not what I want. I would rather someone is actively engaged and they go out for a walk, get some fresh air, look at you know some sunlight um you know get some nature go on a walking Meeting, if if there we were just in broom uh last week for us and 1 30 p.m. Um I could just tell we were all hot. There were some signs and symptoms, and I'm like, okay, guys, let's just take 45, go back to my rooms in the air conditioning, regroup. Um and and afterwards, you know, people were thankful. And I said, that's lovely to be thankful. However, I really want us to be able to call that um, you know, for ourselves and for each other, because you know, when you're in Broome and or or you know, Broome sounds like a lovely tourist town, but actually it's um um the tourism and the and the reality are quite different. Um, I feel like when you're working in the metro office, it's quite different, and it's hard to imagine what it's like doing a day out on the road or in different conditions, and you know, being on for 7.5 hours again is not what I want. It's about what what does this role require right now and what do I require right now for health and safety? So yeah, there's a lot in there as a leader, but I, you know, my main thing is to role model and um you know pave the way for what is okay um so that people feel comfortable to to you know do those sorts of things. And I think my my my favorite thing is when um I don't know about stuff and it's the type of stuff that I've sowed seeds on, and I'm like, yes, it's working because I didn't actually you know endorse or or do that, but but that they were the seeds that I wanted to sow. So when they start to grow, I'm just like, yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

It's working, brilliant, and there's easy things that you can do, as you've said. So walk around consistently, it has to be genuine. It can't just be like, okay, tick, I've done it now, but it has to be consistent and genuine, and you work out how you connect with people. We're all different. You have your style, I'll have my style. Yeah, social events from a workplace perspective are really important. I would say also team optimization sessions. So that's taking away yourselves from your everyday business, as usual, operational work and bringing you up on the balcony to really look at yourselves, I guess, from a strategic perspective and to have the conversations as a collective unit, as a team that you don't often get to have. I think that's huge. Um, water cooler conversations. I bang on about this as well, so I shan't say any more. Um, but I love that being versus doing, considering what you're where you're at, leaders, and everybody within the workplace as well. Louise, I could speak to you forever, but I've got one very important question for you. Okay, Louise Johnston Foster. If I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Well, this is like you know, the three wishes, isn't it? You're distilling it down to uh three or to one. Um I think I would be radical, and my one wish would be to start again with the workforce because we are still based on you know industrialization, working nine to five five days a week. Uh yes, there's some flexibility and there's some other you know hybrid things that we we have adjusted, but principally we're still working to the you know European industrial revolution factory um mindset. Um it doesn't it doesn't uh it doesn't work, I don't think. And so any one small change that I could suggest is still you know a band-aid fix. I I um I think yeah, we just need radical to you know that was great for a couple of hundred years. Yeah, but let's let's um let's do some blue ocean thinking and and look at you know what we want to achieve from our workplaces and let's start again. Uh we'd have to probably create a a commune somewhere else in the wilderness to do this. But yeah, I think there is so much to um there's so much that is holding us back that we we virtually need to start again.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Yeah, times have changed and we need leaders like you to question the system, Louise. Thank you so so much.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Thank you, Breno. I have loved that chat. I don't feel like I've been working for the last hour, so thank you for that opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

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