132. The Power of Leadership Communication - Mel Loy interviews your host, Prina Shah

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change the Work Data with myself Prino Char. I love what I do. I'm a global leadership coach, a consultant, a trainer, a keynote speaker, a podcaster. I help you to develop your leaders, your teams, and I help you to optimize your organizational cultures. I'm here to help you find ways to change your workplace. Why? Because we spend more time in our waking day at work than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. So in this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

This is a little bit of a different episode today. I am handing over the mic to my friend Mel Loy, who was on this podcast last week talking about the art of change communications. Mel has a podcast called Less Chatter More Matter, and I've been on there as well. Have a listen and see what Mel asks me.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Hi Prina, I'm so excited to chat to you today. Me too. So great to be here, Mel. And for those of you who don't know, Prina is on the other side of the country to me. She's in Perth, I'm in Brisbane, so we're about a five-hour flight, depending on which direction you're traveling in, away from each other. But uh that's the power of a globalized world. We've come to know each other online over the last few years. So it's been awesome. Love this network of ours. Totally, absolutely so. So today's episode is going to be uh a bit of a two-parter in a way, because I'm going to interview Prina and then she's going to interview me. So uh, and you'll be able to catch this on both my podcast and Prina's excellent podcast, Ways to Change the Workplace. So if you haven't yet, absolutely subscribe to that. Uh sorry, that was just my mother calling. Um we can edit that part out. Okay, so let's get into it. Prina, I've given a bit of an intro to you in uh at the start of the episode, but what do you do and how did you get to doing what you do?

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Yeah, really good question, Mel. So I'm all about finding positive ways to change your workplace. That's what I do in a nutshell. I am a consultant, I'm a leadership coach, I'm a facilitator like yourself, and I'm a keynote speaker like yourself as well. I have a podcast, like you said, called Ways to Change Your Workplace. So I help my clients to find decent ways to change your workplace. Change is constant, as you know, and change is also overwhelming. So the kind of projects that I'm working on at the moment are all sorts helping organizations to move their diversity, equity, and inclusivity programs to be more meaningful at that next level. I've got some leadership development programs that I'm supporting clients on. I'm supporting I work primarily with execs and people at the helm of their career to address the funk that they have within their careers because the higher you go up the ladder, male, it's a lonely ride, isn't it? Um so I do that kind of stuff. I'm just looking at my huge to-do list. Um and yeah, I work globally, so yeah, lots of online training, in-person stuff, lots of consulting, and I love what I do because I think like yourself, Mel, it's really varied. Um, and you asked why I do it as well. I do it, and how I came across it is so I've got over 20 years of experience in the corporate world. Um, I feel like a little bit of a dinosaur now, but a good dinosaur. You and me both. We've got experience. So in the corporate world, I specialized in um both areas of HR. So not many people do this. I worked in generalist HR as well as a specialist area called organizational development, and I chose to straddle the both because I really needed to learn the pain points of the workforce from a generalist HR perspective, and then OD, organizational development is my thing, and I fell in love with that, and that's a proactive arm of HR to stop the fires from even happening in you know, in the long run. And I I learned the best, so oh gosh, I'm qualified in all sorts of stuff in an organizational development sense, uh, lots of culture change and lots of human behavior change. So I focus on specifically organizational culture change and human behaviour change. And Mel, can I just say I've been an early reader of your book and I'm loving all of the social psychology and the little tidbits that you've got in your book.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

I'm a fan. Oh, thank you so much. And it means so much coming from you as well, because I value your opinion so highly because you are, as my niece said after we met, she's like, she's so smart. I'm like, I know she is so smart. Um, and and look, I think we're we're two P's in a pod in that um we we definitely put people and their experience at the center of everything we do. It's uh that's quite uh a strong alignment with us, which kind of brings me to my next question, which is we coach a lot of leaders and teams, and I know how busy you are, but from a comms point of view, what are some of their biggest challenges?

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Oh my gosh. Mel, I I tell my mom this all the time. I would say probably 90% of the time, miscommunication or misinterpretation of said communication. So I I work with you know teams at the height of their success, wonderful. They're all working really well. Then I support teams at the other end as well who need to expand and get better and optimize essentially. And the teams who need to especially optimize, there's something broken there, and that often comes down to communication male, and that might be communication with each other, or it might be that top-down communication from the leader and what's lacking and the missing pieces there. And you know, we work off so many channels within the workplace now as well. I'm glad I'm not in the workforce. Oh my gosh, it would be so overwhelming. Imagine there'd be like Teams messages popping up, and then people have text messages and emails and whatever else happens as well within the workforce. I think from a comms perspective, Mal, I'm really focusing on that for this conversation. There's a lot of overwhelm out there, and I think that overwhelm creates the issues.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

I think you're exactly right there, and it's something I've seen with some of my clients in the last year or two. Uh, there was all these uh new channels just brought online very quickly through COVID, you know, ripping the band-aid off quick. We need teams, we need virtual, we need this, we need that, because all of a sudden everyone's offline. Normally, when we bring in a new channel, we take it much more slowly and we, you know, we integrate and we make sure we're not doubling up. But now what we're finding is people are so confused because where am I getting my information from? Did I see that in an email? Did I see that in a Teams chat, or did I see that in a Slack message? Or, you know, was it I I don't know where to look anymore. And that you're right, there's so much coming through. And it was interesting, I was reading some stats a little while ago, end of last year, there was some research around how disruptive chat apps are at work. And it was, I think it was around an estimate of 157 hours of lost productivity per employee per year in Australia just because of chat apps, just because of chat apps. Um, and that's just you know a symptom of a bigger problem, not understanding, not having an alignment as a team on what do we use what channel for, and how do I find the information I need to do my job well.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Absolutely so, and you know, from our own personal perspectives, you know, might go on Instagram just to post something about my business, and uh half an hour later I've been chatting with Mel or something. You'll have hard conversations and whatever, then you'll just think, what just happened? Yeah, so from a human behavior perspective, we are like this anyway, and then we add this to a workplace. Of course, it's gonna be the same at work, but compounded because we've got our normal work to do, and I guess human communication sometimes is a bit lacking as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Absolutely, yeah. Which brings me to you said something just before about miscommunication and misinterpretation. Can you talk a little bit more about what they look like in practice?

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Yeah, so oh my gosh, okay, miscommunication. So often um nowadays what I'm finding is leaders are so so busy as well. So I've got such compassion for leaders, and there's a lot on them in terms of expectations of how they have to deliver. When they are trying to deliver messages, it's often quick, and okay, I've just sent them an email, it's all good, we've done it, or I've sent a message on our you know, on our team's channel. Job done. No, not at all. Often the missing pieces, and I I think leaders often forget this is you, the leader, have had this information for so long, you've been incubating it, you've been dealing with it, and you've just dropped this bomb off a message, whatever it might be, to your team who've not had any heads up about it, they've not had any, I guess, conversation about it as well, you know. And I think that's one of the big pieces that's uh a pain point for leaders. They are busy, therefore they're relying on these channels to quickly communicate. And then on the other flip side, Mel, when I read such a message, it might just be like, What the hell? What has just happened? And then the gossip starts, and then we start to assume things as well. So that's what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah, I see that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Yeah, yeah, it's a common thing. So there's just this huge void of let's talk with each other. Yeah, you know, we we could even just have a Zoom meeting if we're working in a hybrid manner, let's just have a chat as a team. That's exactly right. So the reliance, I think, on all of these wonderful tools and technology that we have, I think we need to revisit to see how we actually use them to our benefit rather than the opposite.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. So that's some of the bigger challenges, but how does leadership communication contribute to the culture of a team?

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yeah, okay, leadership communication and culture of a team, so much so. Um, so don't rely on the internet, you know, have the conversation, please. It's on the internet. I hate that line. I just please don't. Um, so how does leadership communication affect organizational culture? Massively so. There's this huge void. The other thing that I'm seeing now, Mel, as well, is from an organizational perspective, that top-down messaging is really not often getting through. And I know this is something that you cover in your book so beautifully, so I'm so glad it's gonna come out to the world. So, the other missing piece is let's say the executive will have an executive meeting, they'll decide on the way forward, they will inform the next level down, let's call them the general managers. Then the general managers will have their own versions of the story and trickle down, trickle down, trickle down. And because of the fact that we're all making up our stories in an inconsistent manner, it is impacting our organizational culture, sometimes positively, because yeah, if it's a benefit, you know, of a discussion or a decision from the executive that suits us, great. But if it's a decision that's you know, a bit of a controversial decision from the executive that's gone down this. I know Chinese whispers is not the PC way of saying things, but you get a body.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

That that cascade of information, it's just lost its meaning, it's lost its sentiment as well. By the time it gets down to the ground floor. The other huge missing piece, Mel, I find is that people on the ground haven't been listened to because you know, people in the ivory towers talk about whatever they talk about and decide about what they decide about. So, one of the things I talk about, and I'm a visual person, I'm gonna write this down. When I'm talking with leaders, there's there's there's different ways of communicating to get buy-in. So you have to tell. Sometimes, tough luck. I'm telling you, this is how it is. So I'll use the example of COVID, the pandemic. Mel, there's a pandemic happening, I don't know what on earth is happening in terms of you know the bigger picture societally, but we as a workforce have decided to ensure that everyone can work from home. I'm telling you, go and work from home. That's telling, that's really directing, and as a leader, you have to have that. Then sometimes you have to sell Mel. Now, I'm thinking about this idea in terms of our next team project. Uh, I think it would be beneficial because of blah blah blah for your role. What do you reckon, Mel? So I'm buying, I'm getting your buy-in here. Tell sell. Uh, and then there's test, and now we're really using the team's brain to test. Okay, and it could be jumping off. Okay, so I've got that idea. Mel says yes to it. Let's as a team brainstorm it, let's just break the crap out of it and see how it works. So, this is communication at that next level. Tell sell test, uh co no consult is the other one, and then we might have to go out to our stakeholders and consult with them. Okay, uh, stakeholders, we've decided upon this is the way forward. What do you think? How are we gonna go forward? This is gonna be benefit off you for you in this manner, blah blah blah. That's one way, and then co-create is at the apex of the buy-in kind of ladder, and co-creation is huge. And this is I'll give an example of this. So, Mel, we've decided on the way forward, we've spoken with our stakeholders, they've given us the thumbs up. So, this new let's say comms change toolkit that we're creating as a comms team. I know your audience are primarily comms people and change people, we've got the go-ahead for this. So, why don't we now co-create it with our team and our stakeholders? Hello, so you've already got that buy-in and you've already given empowerment. You know, we talk about this empowerment word, you know, um, which can be quite fluffy, but if we do it in this manner, we're already empowering empowering others to own that comms and change strategy. So, so there's ways of doing it, and I think as a leader, you need to know, uh, and as a comms person, you need to know when to influence your leaders to tell, to sell, to test, to consult, or to co-create. There's different elements. So I think that's really, really important because comms professionals or change agents, which are also your audience, consider those different mediums of communication.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

I love that framework. Tell, sell, test, consult, and co-create. That's brilliant. And it does sound like uh, you know, to your earlier point, that this disconnect between the people in the mothership and the people on the ground happens when we A, the top-down communication doesn't filter through through that cascade, but B, it's not coming up the chain either. It's not being listened to from the ground. And so this framework could really help leaders to really consider okay, how do I approach different types of communication to make sure that I what I do influences culture in a good way and doesn't cause any further issues. Yeah, that's awesome, Answer. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Yeah, absolutely. Because let's talk about culture surveys, and you know, yeah, most organizations run them, let's say every 18 months or two years. In between, what the hell are you doing? You cannot just rely on these culture surveys. Well, I have a joke. Um, and I tell my clients, you are more than a tool, you are not a tool, so you cannot rely on this thing, which is a culture survey tool, to be your frigging guideline and your basic, you know, uh tool to get you going to have an organizational culture that is great. You need to have your own voice, you need to have your own language. And when I used to work in comms in or when I used to work in OD internally, I partnered. I was so lucky, Mel, to partner with the best comms people who understood the difference. This is another thing that's in your book, which I'm so glad you've covered. They understood the difference between being an internal comms person. We really need that 100%. They are gurus in their own rights. But then when we're working on culture change or change projects, we need a change comms person, and that's a different brain because they tap into the psychology and the human needs of aspects of all of us from a change perspective. So the best, best comms people I've worked with had more of a change comms kind of brain, and they understood the human psyche and tapped into it in a positive way, not in a manipulative way. Yeah, because the other thing is once you understand the human psyche, you can tap into it in a manipulative way. We don't want to do that. Okay, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 17:31

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And yeah, I totally agree. And you know, people who follow me on LinkedIn probably know I bang on about that difference all the time because and I see it all the time, but also I see these roles come up of a change comms manager, and what they mean is somebody who can do the change management and the comms management. Like, no, those are two different roles, and you're just setting a person up to fail by by having those two roles, it's it's asking way too much. And uh, even just this week, I've been working on um with a client and and they want to mush the change plan with the comms plan into one. I'm like, well, where's the learning and development plan? Where's the leadership plan? Why are they not you know put up there on the same level as comms? Comms alone cannot change a culture. I just don't know how much, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Yes, and this is the exact point, and I know we're gonna allude to this shortly as well, in terms of learning. If you are making a change, we are going from here to there. We don't know what there is, so we need some form of learning as well. And when often change happens in an organization, the expectation is done, yeah, off you go on your merry way. No, we need to hold people's hands, we need to retrain them often, we need to have that conversation in a facilitated session with someone wonderful like you or wonderful like me, you know. You need to have those conversations about the gap that we are bridging to get to this new way of working, whatever it is. That's so often the missing piece in a workforce, Mel. Yeah, as well. That learning piece.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Absolutely. So, speaking of learning, what are some of your top three to five tips for leaders on how they could create some really great experiences for their teams?

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Okay, I I'm very, very uh pedantic about this one. I I have one top tip first off, let me tell you, and uh, a lot of my clients have got it. All you need from a leadership perspective is to allow your team to bring them up just out of business as usual, just bring them up from whatever they might be drowning in four times a year. And Mel, I call these team health sessions or team optimization sessions. And I've been running them for a while with some amazing, like beautiful teams, and what this enables teams to do, Mel, is just stop and smell the roses, right? And I I will work with them to determine what the four sessions may well be. So just once a quarter, four days in a year is all you require as a leader to bring your team out to breathe, and to discuss how are we, what are we working on, if there's any strategic elements we need to work on, if there's any change aspects we need to work on, have the conversations because often what I'm finding is male organizations and teams jump from one thing to another, to another, to another, without reflecting or whether without having a post-mortem, as I call it, you know. So we need to just stop and allow teams to breathe, which was which will enable leaders to breathe as well. The other missing piece in that respect also is if you don't have such sessions, Mel, leaders are unaware of really what's happening. So when I hold these sessions, the other thing I ask leaders to do is please take your leadership hat off. This is a day off for you as well, just to sit back, observe, and participate, you know. So, as a leader, I think it's really important for you not always to be a leader, and that's anti-everything that a leader's been taught, so they freak out initially. Letting go off control is a good thing, trust me, it's a good thing, but you have to have that trusted facilitator as well. So I work in tandem in partnership with those leaders to say, okay, well, what are the quirks of the team right now? What's happening? So, for example, this week, in fact, I have a session happening with an amazing team. Now they're an international team, beautiful, beautiful. I have pinpointed, as has the leader, they are all solo high achieving, the half the high flyers, but they're all solo agents.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

The intention now is to bring the team together as a cohesive unit. Um, and we're gonna do this by actually reflecting on the year that was and learning about the things that. That they, as an individual, felt worked really well. Things that they hated, things that were surprises, that they were glad it happened, and then anything else to have this kind of conversation as a team from hearing different perspectives as a leader, I think is invaluable. Because the other thing, Mel, we talked about talk about from a psychological perspective, from a comms perspective, everyone knows about it, is that connection. We don't have to be best mates, but I need to connect with you, Mel, to understand your ways of working, how you are, you know, in terms of when you are stressed, potentially, what kind of support you need. If as a leader I know that and I can connect with you better, I'm gonna be a better leader for you, and you're gonna be a better worker for me as well. So it's win-win.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah, I love that. And that's a great tip. And I think you're right. There's uh I'm doing some work at the moment for a client on um a bit of an internal comms audit, basically. But some of the results that have come back from our research have really shown people are really missing that face-to-face time, and yet it's the number one thing they find the most valuable as a source of communication. So it's about well, how do we set up businesses to be able to give teams and leaders that time off the floor, off the books, you know, and have those good conversations and um yeah, really make sure that everybody's I know the word alignment comes up a lot, but actually is aligned, you know, there's there's agreement, there's alignment. Uh, and even just feeling walking away from there feeling like I feel really well informed, you know, that basic outcome of communication that often so fails us, just do I feel well informed, yes or no? Uh is yeah, can make a huge difference. So how do we get leaders on board? You know, you do a lot of this sort of stuff with teams. How do you get them on board with actually running these workshops? Actually saying and and investing in learning and development.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Okay. The first question I asked them is Do you understand the concept of balcony time? Some do, some don't. So, for those who don't understand the concept of balcony time, balcony time is taking dedicated time out of your workday to step up onto the onto the balcony to have a bird's eye view of everything that is happening. Many leaders say to me, What is that about? No, I don't do that. Well, hello, we need to do that then. And then I talk about the other thing, you know, balcony time. Are you on the dance floor as in operational? Are you busy, busy, busy, just running from one project to another? Or do you allow yourself that balcony time? So I think Mel using that analogy, I think really gets leaders thinking differently for themselves, and then they see the benefit to their team as well. When they allow their team this balcony time, people shine. The conversations that happen are something else, and you have to use a good facilitator, absolutely so, and you have to have that trust in the facilitator, as I said as well. But my gosh, it will propel your team to just amazing new ways of working and connecting differently as well. Now, I'm very mindful of the fact, like I said earlier, we don't have to be best mates, but we really have to do work well together, and that's what these sessions are about. It's allowing yourself just to breathe and get away from the everyday operational, business as usual kind of work to take that helicopter view and the long-term view as well, you know, because change is so fast, as you know, as everyone knows, we need to keep on top of it. That ain't gonna change. We have to change the way that we work.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yeah, I love that balcony view and that analogy of the dance floor. I think uh yeah, using analogies like that sounds like can really help people get out of their heads almost and start to think differently because you're asking them to think to visualize something quite different. So I love that. That's awesome, Prina. Hey, one more question before we get to our final few questions, and this one wasn't on the brief, but you are writing a book yourself. Can you tell us a bit about what it's about?

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Oh Mel, I am. My book is about leaving a legacy in the workplace. It's a huge, huge, huge endeavor. Now, this came about a few years ago. I was speaking with someone and he said, My CEO is leaving. I don't know what to do, I don't know how to address him. Okay, well, ask him what the legacy he wishes to leave is and how you can support him as an OD practitioner. This person was. Then I've been incubating it for a while, Mel, and we we caught up last year, and I told you I had a million ideas, but this is one of the million ideas that I had. And I think, Mel, every single one of us can leave a legacy within the workplace, whether you are an executive, whether you're a leader, whether you're a team. So, this book is for all three of them. Depending on what you're doing, every single day you can leave a frigging legacy. You need to define what that legacy is, and I think that's often the missing piece, and I think that's often the thing that causes people this funk. I'm doing my nine to five job, I'm not feeling it, Prina. This is so much what I hear. Even people at the apex of their career, Prina, I have been dragged through my career, you know, I've been tapped on the shoulder all the time, I haven't potentially, you know, picked that job for me. Okay, well, what do you want to do? So it's tapping into that individual or that team's heart, I guess, and the essence to make the workplace less. Can I swear?

SPEAKER_03 27:41

Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

To make the workplace less shitty. That's all I'm all what I'm all about, right? Um, so what is a legacy that you wish to leave? And I think that's the missing piece. Because from an organizational psychology perspective, we also know every single one of us wants to contribute in some way or another. So this book is gonna help you tap into that, and it's a really like your book, it's a useful book, it's a practical book, so it's gonna be your guide. It's gonna be a little Bible for any job. You can start a job now, use the book, or if you start another job, you can eat sleep and repeat, essentially. Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah, I can't wait to get my hands on a copy. I'll absolutely be one of your early readers. Okay, so I have three questions I ask every guest at the end of each episode. Are you ready for those? Let's do it. Okay. Number one, what's the best communication lesson you've ever learned, and how did it change the way you approach communication? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Okay, the best communication lesson. Uh, I need to work out when I need to apply brevity, get to the point, versus when I need to blah and expand the point. Okay, there's a difference between the two, and I need to read the room and work out when I need to just say it as it is, or when I need to go off on one and you know have a monologue sometimes as well. There's a difference there, and I think for leaders it's really important to decide when you need to just get to the point and use brevity or when you need to expand your comms as well. That's a huge lesson for me, Mel. And that I learned in my corporate days, and it applies to my business now as well, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

That's awesome, that's a great lesson. And I'd also add to that, too, when you are looking to brevity, make sure it's not blunt. You know, it's about checking the tone as well when you're in that space. Yeah. Next question: What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

SPEAKER_02 29:41

Okay, going back to the brevity, decide, work out when you need to talk at length, and work out when you need to just get to the frigging point. The other thing I'm talking to here as well is we need to understand, therefore, people's listening styles and their comp styles. Mel, this is the other thing that I really help teams with. Sometimes people just get pissed off with each other because they bang on, as they say. No, and that's that's not a personal thing, it's just a communications preference. I need you to get to the point and tell me what I need to do. I don't need a thesis sometimes. So I think if we learn about each other's communication styles and listening styles, it would make all the difference. Now, Mel, think about it. You're married, I've got a partner. If we didn't know how we communicated or how they listened, and vice versa, my god, we'd be arguing all the time. So if we can apply that, if we can apply that to our you know, love relationships, our family relationships, why the hell can't we bring that into the work relationship and talk about hey, how are we gonna get on?

SPEAKER_00 30:47

You know, I love it. Have a brave conversation, you know, just up front. I love that. Yeah, okay. Final question: who do you turn to for communication advice?

SPEAKER_02 30:57

You know, it's you. You, you as well. You uh I love your podcast, the book is amazing. Um, I also have my own coach. Uh, her name is Dory Clark. Uh yes, Dory. Dory, yeah, she's all about brevity as well. She gets to the point, which is what I like. And my communication style is yeah, get to the point if you hadn't picked that up right now. Um so yeah, Dory is amazing as well. Then there's another podcast that I listened to, which you might as well, it's on NPR. It's called Hidden Brain. And that's about, yeah, it's an interesting one. So uh Ravi Shankar Vadantam is his name, and he he taps into the human psychology of the human brain, whether it be in relation to happiness, in relation to depression, in relation to the workplace, in relation to the way that we communicate. There's so much there. So I pick up so much from all of that as well. It's really, really interesting. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

And uh again, I think we're very aligned on the uh psychology piece as well, which is so fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

How good was that episode?

SPEAKER_02 32:05

If you liked it, be sure to share it with a couple of other people. Also, in the show notes are details about my newsletter. Keep in touch. I send a newsletter out around once a month. It won't be spammy, it will be very practical. And if we're not connected on LinkedIn yet, we must be connect with me on LinkedIn. And on Instagram, I am prina.shar. I will see you somewhere else or in the next episode. Until then, goodbye.