134. From Law to Radio: Lisa Leong's Journey to a Multifaceted Career with Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change the Workplace with myself Trina Chad. I love what I do. I'm a global leadership coach, a consultant, a trainer, a keynote speaker, a podcaster. I help you to develop your leaders, your teams, and I help you to optimize your organizational cultures. I'm here to help you find ways to change your workplace. Why? Because we spend more time in our waking day at work than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. So in this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with myself, Prina Shah, and I'm bringing a very interesting guest to you today. Her name is Lisa Leong. Lisa at the moment is a radio presenter and so many other things, and she's actually handed the mic over to me, Lisa. Welcome. Thank you, Prina. How does it feel to be on the other side, Lisa?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Oh yes, this feels like strange, and I might start asking you questions accidentally, Prina. So watch me, watch me.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Well, Lisa, I heard you on my friend Leanne's podcast, in fact. Leanne Hughes' podcast is called First Time Facilitator, and I was listening to it in the car, Lisa. And then you talked about the fact that you've got a portfolio career and my ears just pricked up. You also talked about some other stuff and how you came across the portfolio career, and my ears pricked up even more. So, without further ado, Lisa, do you want to introduce yourself? Who are you? What do you do?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Tell me. So Lisa Leong, I'm a lover, not a fighter. I used to be a lawyer, and then I did a pivot of my career and trained to become a radio presenter, and I'm now at the ABC. I think even though I have many strings to my bow, the thing that is probably the theme is helping people find the sunshine, whether it be in the work, in others, or in themselves. And it's not that I can't see the darkness, but I do tend to look for the crack where the light gets in. And I believe that we have more agency in our lives than we think. So that's the theme and my focus in all that I do. So that's me in a nutshell, Prina.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

I don't think you've sold yourself well enough. I think I know more aspects about you, Lisa, from having stalked you religiously. Lisa, an ex-lawyer, turned radio presenter. You're also an author.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Yes. I authored a book with my friend Monique Ross, who was a digital editor at the ABC when we met and we collaborated together there. She's a wonderful writer, and she actually has also pivoted her career to become a forest bathing nature guide. So you don't have to get naked for it. That's one thing I would say. But it is walking and experiencing nature and to really bathe in it. And it's a mindfulness practice. And she's a gorgeous human being who also does teaches basket weaving and things that get us back to our into our bodies again and in connecting with nature. So she and I joined forces to create a book called This Working Life. And the reason why we did it, Prina, was that through COVID, people started asking questions about their career, like, Am I actually in the right career? Is this all there is? And my show, the podcast This Working Life on ABC Radio National, it kind of deals with systemic issues. And we do a little bit of career work, but not a lot. So I really wanted to distill the ideas and the processes and the things that have worked for me, and to really put that all together in a book that you can use when you're stuck in your career, or even if you're not stuck and you want to understand why you do the things you do. And it's so it's a practical book, but it's a story book as well. So it goes through the things that I've learned and hopefully learning from my failures and my little mistakes is what we've tried to do in the book. So that book came out two years ago and was in launched in the US last year.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Oh, congratulations. Well done. So beyond being an author, I also know that you were a facilitator, an emcee, and a speaker.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

I was a keynote speaker first, Prina. That's what I'd explored with Leanne. So I was keynote speaker and radio presenter. That was my heart. And I think when I look back, I was a keynote speaker because when you speak as a keynote speaker, nobody can speak back. And the good thing about that, underneath it all, was probably nervousness of people, the little bit of imposter syndrome, and oh, people going to show that I don't really know anything is what underpins it. And so when I became a facilitator, it was really looking deeply at that role. And I think what I learned through training as a facilitator, and now it's probably my preferred thing to do, even over keynote speaking, Krina, because it's not about me. That's the whole point of facilitation. It's the curiosity that you can cultivate in others. And for my practice is to remain curious when questions are asked, when people react, when they do the things that they do, is actually to get rid of those thoughts that say they're doing it to me. Of course they're not. They're there's something that they want to know. So that's why I love facilitation, because I think as I get older, really, it is not about me and it's about everyone else. And so that's the whole point.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

That's beautiful. So with the facilitation, just the beautiful way that you've explained it, you're looking for that gold nucket. You're looking for that missing piece, aren't you, when you're facilitating? You're trying to tweak it out with the questions that you ask in the way in the manner that you facilitate, also.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, it's a compassionate act. So it is to create a safe container first and foremost, ethically for people to feel like they can ask questions of themselves, and then it's listening deeply and holding that space for people and doing it in a way which is nurturing and nourishing. But also when you're listening, it's with every pore of your body, and it's also for those pauses, what's not being said as well. And that's the work that I love to do. And this is work, deep work that I would do in any setting, including in corporate settings where sometimes we're not able to get to know people on that deeper level. But of course, we're bringing our whole selves to work. So every decision, every act that we do, there's probably some trigger from our childhood, from our past experiences that are playing out without people knowing. So I guess that's the work that I do. And hence when I was speaking to Leanne about facilitation, I was talking about Roger Schwartz because his approach to facilitation is very values-driven. And that's the point.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah, I hear you. Absolutely. And when facilitating in that deep manner that you've just beautifully described, you have to be present the whole time. I mean, I know you've got those skills as a presenter, as a as an interviewer, nonetheless as well. But when you're in person and you have a room of 20 or 30 people, you are on. And like you said, you're looking for all of those little nuances that you wouldn't pick up otherwise, whether it be on a video or on a phone call type of conversation either. So I love facilitating. It is one of the best things and it's one of the hardest things to do as well. Now, Lisa, I have just described you as a lawyer, a radio presenter, an author, a facilitator, and a speaker. You have what we call a portfolio career. Can I ask you, how did you come across the concept of a portfolio career? And what is a portfolio career for those who may not know what it is?

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Well, originally I thought I was potentially, say, a consultant with a side hustle of radio presenting at the ABC. So that term side hustle, you have to choose your primary focus, and then everything else is the afterthought. I spoke to Dory Clark, whom you know and who you've interviewed on the podcast. She's a coach and consultant and all-round awesome human being. And she introduced me during one of my interviews with her to this concept of portfolio career. So, portfolio, you can think of it in investment terms, where you have multiple investments and actually you're curating and cultivating a portfolio. This is very much the same with when you have multiple strings to your bow in your career. So, my portfolio career, it adds up to a full-time job. But actually, I have my ABC radio presenting, which is part of my portfolio. And then I have my book. I am a watercolor artist as well. So that's the creative side. Then I'm a consultant where I do my MC interviewing facilitation. So when I describe it as a portfolio career, you can see how that changes the focus from having to choose something. And really, when you think of a side hustle, it's like when I do my side hustle, it's taking away from my main focus, whereas I see it as being additive. So everything that I do actually adds up beautifully. It helps expand me so that I'm better. So when I am doing my watercolor or my mindfulness, I feel like that, of course, helps me as a radio broadcaster because I'm tapping into those things which are so important. We describe the presence, the ability to compassionately listen and hold people in the moment when they're sharing, and asking beautiful, hopefully crafted questions, right? So I see it all as being additive, that idea of portfolio. Now, one of the benefits is of course that if something drops off, at least I'm not exposed. So that's the whole point of a portfolio as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Beautiful. No, while we're talking about Dory, she has been on my podcast and she is actually my coach, Lisa. As and I came across Dory exactly for the reason that you said. So I was working in corporate land and I knew I wanted to do something else. There was something more. So I actually started side hustling, Lisa. Um so that's my story is very similar to yours. So I'm an artist or a practice, not so much practicing at LP, but you know, artists unite. So I've got a huge creative side in me, I've got the corporate side in me, but then there was this entrepreneurial little mind in me that was just ticking away, and I wanted to do something else. So that's how I came across story, and I haven't looked back since. Now you have said so much here, it's a change from a focus to having to choose something, it's an additive, it's an additive, you said. I love the description of the way that you describe portfolio as well. It's investments, and you're essentially investing in yourself as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yeah, you're investing in yourself, and I think it's unfair to expect one job to fulfill every part of you. And I wonder whether some of the frustration that people have in their careers is searching and expecting too much from one job because we're multifaceted individuals. You've already mentioned you have this creativity with your art, but then there's an entrepreneurial streak, and then you've also got your organizational skills. Now, you don't have to blend that all into one blob of a job. I feel like I there are so many people out there with have multiple abilities, skills and interests, and I think that having the ability to try and curate, and that's the other part of a portfolio career that I like, which is that it feels strategic. I love the term because it doesn't feel like I'm just throwing everything at a wall and watching what sticks. It's that I like an investment portfolio. I'm thinking about the balance of my portfolio. I I do want to see it as constructive, not destructive. So that's part of the curation of a portfolio career.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

To interject and prod a little bit further. Okay, Lisa. So I was listening to a podcast, the Dario for CEO with Jimmy Carr on it, and Steven's interviewing Jimmy. Steven's talking about the fact that Jimmy Carr is a comedian, amazing, by the way, everybody. If you haven't heard him, please do. And Steven's saying, I've got a portfolio career, I do this, I do that, blah, blah, blah. And Jimmy says, just stop. So Jimmy Carr is actually anti-portfolio career, because his argument is that you need to hone a skill, you need to hone a craft and be best at that. What would you say to that kind of thinking?

SPEAKER_01 13:35

I'm open to everything because I think that it's not one size fits all with anything in life. So if you know that you have a thing, because some people don't know that they have the one thing that they want to go deep on, then if and if you love it, then go deep, and that's perfect. Also, there's a part of me that has curiosity around putting all your eggs in one basket in this day and age as well, though. So I think potentially just thinking about the transferable skills that you have if you decide to go deep on one area, because you might become a master of something that disappears entirely. That's Dory's story. Dory Clark tells that story of being a journalist and just losing everything in one moment. And she learned from that. So she had a portfolio career so that when COVID hit, she was able to put a little bit more focus on some of the other aspects of her portfolio career that could help her stay afloat. So this idea of the security, just a few more things, I think that's why I lead towards it. But as I said, it's not one size fits all. So for some people, it's better to focus on one thing. That was definitely not me. Ever. Even in one job, I was always tinkering on the sides because I think I'm an innovator. So even when I was a lawyer, I was doing many things that actually were surrounding it, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

We also talked about the fact that we're talking about career malays here. People are really uh discontented with their careers. So I work in organizational culture change, culture optimization. And when things go really wrong, it's often due to the fact that, and I'm getting deep here, we haven't tapped into our inner selves and those larger needs that we are talking to here. Therefore, here I am nine to five every frigging day, and I hate this job, I hate my manager, whatever it is. And because a lot of people don't have those extra outlets, we focus all of our needs and joy on that one job, which is what you were saying earlier as well, Lisa. So the antidote to that is potentially trying other things, Lisa.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Well, and can I talk about that moment then? So I actually loved being a lawyer, but it took a lot of time. And in the early days, there was always this part of me, the singing and dancing Lisa, right? So even though I was a lawyer, I would put my hand up to do everything else. So MCing, the Christmas parties, I would do a lot of client-facing presentations, and then I would interview people. So I would do a lot. So I had my job, which was already busy, and then I would put all my discretionary time also investing into the firm. And so that part of me that started to develop the side hustle portfolio career was when I decided to take that discretionary time. And instead of reinvesting it back into the same organization, I decided to use that time to volunteer. So when this happened, I was in London and I was working at the London law firm. The discretionary time I took and I said, okay, I want to volunteer this time outside this organization, but something else. And so it was hospitals and it was hospital radio. So that's when I started interviewing people on radio. So I learned how to do all the things that you need to do. I got trained, I volunteered, and then I thought, this is amazing. This is something I want to do more of. So then I started using more of that discretionary time to slowly learn more. So I volunteered more. I started appearing on commercial radio as a guest, and then I got my own show on commercial radio in London on a Sunday. So, but I was always just learning more. I didn't ever just leap blindly into the abyss.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

It takes a long time and the long game, as Dory clearly says as well. You talked about discretionary time and then use time to volunteer to expand your skills and your passion and follow those internal and to explore it, trainer, as well.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Because I didn't know. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was waiting for the tap on the shoulder, somebody to say, you are not meant to be here as a full-time lawyer. But of course, sometimes you've got to tap yourself on the shoulder.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

There's a beautiful line, Lisa.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Lose yourself to find yourself. Lose yourself to find yourself. And if I had with all of my time, where would I have had that exploration to find myself? So I needed to free some time up. And I understand that people feel like they don't have hours, but just examining, well, how much am I giving to work and how much discretionary time, that extra stuff, can I use that one hour a day for something else? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Let me tell you my story, then I'm going to lead to another question. My story is similar but a little bit different to yours. So I was working in HR and thinking, what am I doing? Yeah, I just got to a stage in my career where I wanted more, and I'm a lifelong learner like yourself as well. So there's always these interesting things out there. So I studied the degree in art, contemporary art, I became a practicing artist. But then after that, there was just still something yearning in me that I wanted to do more of or give more of. So, like you, I started volunteering. So, whilst working in HR, I was working part-time at that time, by that time, so four days a week. Then I started a side hustle voluntarily, where I was helping not for profits, charities as a consultant to help them to optimize their organizations, their cultures, and their teams. So that's how I started off from a voluntary perspective, Lisa. Now I am leading to a question that went really well. However, the corporate world was quite difficult to be open to me and this new version of me side hustling, even though it was voluntary. It then became my business. I then turned it into a business. But Lisa, I have had trouble from a corporate perspective initially when I first started off with Obaprina, is that a conflict of interest? I declared everything, the secondary employment forms, all of the good stuff that you have to do. But from a corporate perspective, what would you say to organizations who have people like us who are still classified as out there?

SPEAKER_01 20:06

I think the world is changing. I think that it's way more open than it was to people having multiple facets. So the the door is opening, which is that's the great news. I think that this idea that side hustles or portfolio careers are destructive as opposed to constructive, I think this is a really important point. When a person is focusing on these other things, I think it makes them a better worker for you as an organization, truly. Because then all dimensions of them are cultivated and then they can bring that into the workplace because work is complex now, and we need to see outside the paradigm in which we work. And so having people who work outside the bubble is really important because then we'll pick up signals as to the environment and skills that they can then apply to the workplace. So I think it's really trusting in your workers, giving them the autonomy to really care about the job that they're doing with you and not feeling like they want to run away from it as well. So I think if you support them as whole people, then of course they'll be better workers for you.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

And you'll retain them as well. You'll retain wonderful people, yeah, with extra.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

And why these the outliers, the innovators, you want to keep them. I mean, it's very hard to think that strategically because it feels like sometimes they're troublemakers. But I think it's it is important to keep the creative innovators in your workplace if you can.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yeah, we've got a wolf of talent at the moment, and that is one way to win the for talent. Absolutely. So balancing multiple roles, multiple careers can be really difficult. So how do you do it? What tips do you have for people going to start out or already doing it, but finding it a little bit difficult?

SPEAKER_01 22:13

This is the downside of a portfolio career or even having a side hustle or doing anything. Oh yeah. All of us, it's burnout. So let's go into the dark side. This can happen in a full-time job. It's not having a portfolio career will lead you to burnout, whereas having a full-time job won't. I don't think that's true. I think we're all being asked to do more than we can do in one day. But this agency idea, so to what extent are you causing the overwork or the culture? So I think it's always being strategic about it. So checking in with yourself about your portfolio career, making sure it's a balanced portfolio, that you're not taking on too much, that you don't have too many irons in the fire because sometimes especially if you are a freelancer, worried about um workflow, you can over egg things and it's easy to just keep on throwing things into the career and it just gets crazier and crazier. And I've certainly had that problem is managing the portfolio career.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

So it's just something to watch but it's something for all of us I've been there and done that and just before the pandemic before I quit corporate life I was juggling a very demanding HR role. It was stressful fun and everything in between as well as my side hustle. And let's be honest when you're first starting off as a side hustle I was working evenings I was working weekends. It was my passion it was my thing. I knew where I was going but I wasn't there it takes years. So it's not an overnight thing either for anybody the other thing that happened to me is I got shingles on this side of my face we're shingle sisters.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

So shingles on your face as well that's really hard and so dangerous for your eyesight. So your eyes are fine.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Well I freaked out so it was up here I thought went straight to the hospital because it can lead to blindness as well. Yes it can it was very serious. This this was when uh 2020 and then I quit corporate after that well that's my story and I went down the MBSR mindful uh nurse space production both literally trod the same pathway trainer so I'm a meditator as well and meditation just brings me back to myself so I can be the best for everyone and everything that I do. So in that respect as well that there's tools that one needs to have if you are going to go down this journey Lisa should we get a little bit deeper with those MBSR tools? Yeah I'd love to talk about anything about your shingles journey as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah so mine has happened multiple times. So the worst one was the first time when I burnt out when I had a high flying job in Hong Kong. Okay. So that shingles was so mine was across my abdomen and it uh was debilitating and I got the nerve damage so secondary nerve damage post herpetic neuralgia which is a complication which is debilitating and the doctor said don't Google it. I Googled it and it basically had stories of people never going back to work. Oh okay so I freaked out and after crying for a long time a friend suggested that so the mindfulness based stress reduction program cabatsin was being run in Hong Kong and as someone who doesn't have time for that sort of stuff I was pretty desperate and I did it. And I learned two things one is the formal meditation practice which is the sitting down practice but I also learned informal mindfulness. So in every moment just being really aware of my awareness my breath and it helped me immensely with avoiding the multitasking being very present when I'm talking with someone so it helped me with the skill set around interviewing and then presence whether it be with clients or my friends and my family. So people noticed now over the last 10 years I must have forgotten what I learned because I got I've had shingles for the last two years at the end of every year. Yeah and but it's very slight and it's just that little reminder hey remember me remember me and so I have been go I've gone back to a formal meditation practice prenus so that's the sitting and I didn't think I needed it but it does make a difference and I in fact I've been doing a Zen meditation program every Friday night from seven till nine Zen meditation center which is five minutes from me but it's beautiful and then I do a daily morning practice and what it does which is different from because I do lots of ex like I'm quite healthy but I'm still we're still getting shingles it's the stress. So paying attention to the running mind motor that won't shut off and with a sitting meditation practice just a little bit every day so I'm up to 20 25 minutes just watching as those thoughts come in and go out coming in oh there they are just gently watching and then that separates me from those crazy ideas which I have way too many of beautiful but be the observer well preaching was actually so you've been going to a meditation center and learning all sorts of different things as well and going back to the course as well I came across the School of Philosophy practical philosophy and they're based all around the world in fact I know they've got a chapter in Melbourne there's definitely a chapter in Perth so that's how I came across all things mindfulness and beyond and the kind of meditation Lisa that I do is transcendental meditation and then there's walking meditations there's all sorts of meditation and then just pausing in between tasks as well just those simple little things as well to not carry things over which has been really helpful for myself Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

The other kind of things that I also do just boundaries Lisa boundaries in terms of now I don't work in the evenings I don't work on the weekends my phone actually goes onto airplane mode as well so I don't even check certain apps and things I don't even kind of boundaries that you've put in place to help yourself.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Boundaries are really important particularly if we're hybrid working working from home. So when we went to work there were contextual markers that put us into work mode. So I'm commuting I go and get my cup of coffee I'm wearing whatever corporate suit I was wearing so they were contextual markers that said I'm on now and then when I come home I'm off. Now we don't have those so what I've been doing is just setting up those contextual markers for myself and part of the boundaries are definitely to do with devices and mindset and hours. So there's a couple of things that I do I have a morning routine and an evening routine. So my morning routine it does change. So at the moment it does have the sitting meditation as one of the core things but I add in things and I try them and see if they're helpful. And so an example would be if you're a runner that part of your morning routine would be get up have a lemon mortar and then go for a run or whatever your morning routine is the habit means that it will it's like setting yourself up body mind spirit for the day ahead rather than rolling out checking my emails and so that's what I find is really helpful. It's a little bit excessive at the moment takes me two hours. I'm a little bit out of hand Prina is what happens so I need to pair it back. So let's say there's a morning routine yep evening routine because I'm such an early bird it's like crazy early. So my phone is basically off at about 5 p.m like off like you can't get me but what I'm doing is it's after work and school and I'm just pottering around and then I start my evening routine which is like the hot bath and then I've got a sort of a mat that I lie on that helps relax me and then pat around in my pajamas, read book and then go to bed. So that my they're my boundaries the other thing that I was playing around with it was maybe in COVID was this idea of a tech Sabbath. Ooh tell me more tell me more so you turn off your device for 24 hours say when sun goes down on Friday night 24 hours don't turn the phone on no devices. Netflix is okay on a big TV that was the exception but now it's really hard to do so I haven't done it for a while because I actually needed my phone because I was getting lost because I didn't have my phone I was done anyway so I was doing it again but then I was working seven days a week last year accidentally and even though I was switching off at so 2 30 three o'clock I was switching off every day but I was working every day until three hence the shingles so lesson was I moved my day off to a Friday. So I have Friday Saturday as my weekend because having one day is not good because I would just put things in there. So I've now got a kind of semi-weekend it's sort of Friday Saturday I'm thinking about doing a tech sabbat again I've now bought a well I had I actually had an old Nokia flip phone. I think I'm I've got a burner phone just to let you know. So I'm gonna use my burner phone talking about side hustles. No I've got my burner phone for Friday so I'm gonna try that not this month there's always some excuse isn't it this month because I've got my watercolor in residency and I need to take phone calls but next month yep I'm gonna try I'll report back I'm gonna hold you to account I'll give you my other number so I'll take personal calls on that burner phone. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

So you've talked about so watch here you've been you've talked about driving your day not being dragged by it. Yeah I'm pretty good like that. Yeah and that's huge and just a big lesson for me here having a portfolio career means that you've got lots of different people contacting you for lots of different things. And then when that happens to me so I don't know about you but my mind it can just be a real overwhelm and it can get too much.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Well I think the Pareto principle so you know when you put in 20% of the effort you get 80%. So I'm quite good at doing the or focusing on the right type of work for the most beneficial outcome as opposed to I really don't spin my wheels. Yeah okay I really don't and even if you're asking me to produce something for you I'll say is this the quickest path to actually what you need preno and I'll ask the extra questions what do you need and because it's that curious side of me that goes I don't think producing a hundred pieces of paper for you or anyone like I know nobody's going to read it. So let's not do that. Yeah. And how do you consume? So if you're not an email person I won't write you an email and actually I'm not an email person. So I do have a little note on my ABC email saying I actually don't read my emails much. So find another way in this manner you're using discernment to use your energy effectively as well yeah yeah oh I'm so into energy that's another hot topic because we have finite energy and we're not serving anyone to run on empty we have low resilience like when my battery's empty I'm not the nicest person I can be so I try and replenish my battery and I'm aware when I'm low. So I'm always conscious about where I'm putting my energy so our gift to others is where will I focus my energy? Is it on listening to you? It's not multitasking I think getting away from multitasking helps everyone and those switching costs that I was talking about.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Completely so now Lisa we've talked about the the perils of a portfolio career and I'm glad we're being asked about it because it's not so many people contact me to say oh Prina you quit corporate and now you're doing your thing how did you do it? It takes a lot of hard work and good practices as we've just all discussed it is really hard. It's really fruitful and it's just one of the best things as well Lisa. So can you tell me about any transformative experiences you've had thanks to you trusting in yourself and doing this portfolio career Lisa?

SPEAKER_01 35:23

I think that when you're developing your career can only make decisions based on where you've been and in that moment in time. And I am a bit older now so I'm 52 and I so I take everything I say with a grain of salt because of course I had to make different decisions when I was 20 and 30 and 40 to where I'm I sit now. And where I sit now so in this sort of what they call maybe the third chapter of your career is that I'm quite experienced now. I can be quite relaxed about so I'm still focused on excellence but I'm not so into the striving. It's less about the running and more about the utilization of that skills the skills and experience for a good purpose hearted compassionate listening in the world. Doing for good yes yeah I think so and so everything that I choose to do really has that lens on it in this moment. So for me the transformation keeps on happening is I think the answer to your question. So there's not one thing but it's just paying attention to those little signs along the way.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Yeah and paying attention is huge isn't it thinking about my career Lisa I feel like finally in my mid-40s dots have been joined. I'm glad I did this because it's led me to this and the wonderful experiences I've had I'm glad I've done the art degree as well it makes me a fuller richer person and I can bring creativity to everything that I do and that different kind of thinking but you have to trust yourself that's the other thing. So here I'm leaning towards tell me about self-confidence because you've got to back yourself through all of this Lisa everybody else in the world might say Lisa a lawyer what the hell are you doing now? So tell me about how you trust yourself how you back yourself.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

I think because I mean I've always so like I'm really small for a start so I'm four foot eleven now and this is fully formed. When I was younger I was like tiny teeny tiny and so when I was really tiny and I grew up in the 70s where it was all about assimilation I don't think I ever labeled myself. So I never really felt that different from everyone even though I was like a tiny package I look Asian even though I've got a broad Aussie accent. So I'm unboxing and that gave me a lot of freedom actually because I didn't have to try and be anything that I'm not and I think I learned quickly that even though I have we all have really obvious faults there's things that I really can't do like read my emails I've learned to just accept those and just run with the things that light me up. And if I run with the things that absolutely light me up well then it lights others up too and so one of the things which is probably an inbuilt philosophy is when I interact with another, will they walk away feeling better about themselves? I mean that's the secret, right? That is what lights me up is that I help you feel less shit about the world and about yourself. That's everything to me. So I don't really have to have self-confidence because it's not about me. As we talked about in the facilitation if it's never about you and your ego then it's incredibly freeing because it's not about me. So I don't know whether it's about self-confidence or just if you I have innate curiosity in others.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Yeah and the belief that what you do will result in something wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Well I think if you go with your heart and if you go with love then actually is the fuel that connects and I never go alone either. So even though I'm a freelancer in a lot of what I do so in ABC of course I work closely with producers and managers and then my interviewees and guests. So it's a group effort I call it creative collaboration and I look for this everywhere. So when I meet a cool person it's like ooh how might we collaborate together and usually it's with a mission that has a goal that's aligned to my values right yeah so all of that makes for quite a fun career like there's never but yeah I don't feel like it's work because I've minimized the things that I really hate doing and I play to my strengths and that's why I have beautiful producers because I've realized through time that I'm better being a presenter and working with brilliant producers. All the details and yeah some of that hard the stuff that I find really hard I can do it but it drains my batteries very quickly so I don't do that anymore.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

You've got wonderful people to support you in as you were just explaining that that there's a beautiful line by a poet called Kahir Gibran. He wrote a book called The Prophet which is one of my and the line in that is work is love made visible oh that made me feel all oh gooey and beautiful same so each time every day work made visible if you think about it that way then all is well all is well beautiful I'll write that down love made visible the profit the best book a book for a lifetime everybody should get it Lisa now for the workplace any final tips you have for organizations to be more adaptable to people like us one of the trends through COVID was personalization so hyperpersonalization at work.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah working from home discovered the conditions that they need to be the best that they can be I think that we should learn from that and continue on with this because we are way more individual and when we correl people and force them into environments where they can't do their best work it really doesn't serve anyone. So get rid of presenteism allow for hyperpersonalization trust people build that trust and and I feel like that'll help our workplaces flourish.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Absolutely now Lisa that is my mission and this podcast is called Ways to Change a Workplace and I have one final question for you.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Lisa Leong if I was to hand you a magic wand what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace I think I'll be consistent and say hyperpersonalization allowing people to do the work and even curating using job crafting their roles so I've interviewed Amy Renushi co-authored some amazing academic research and papers on job crafting so there's relational there's cognitive and task crafting and we have more agency than you think to adapt our roles so rather than the leap that you were talking about if we can actually adapt our roles by playing around with these levers then actually we can start curating that type of career that suits your skill sets and interests. Yeah so allow for job crafting hyperpersonalization I need to have Amy on my podcast.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Lisa I cannot thank you enough for the best conversation we went up down we went everywhere. Thank you so much for trusting in me and handing me over the mic I'm very grateful Lisa thank you thank you Prina how good was that episode if you liked it be sure to share it with a couple of other people also in the show notes are details about my newsletter keep in touch I send a newsletter out around once a month it won't be spammy it will be very practical and if we're not connected on LinkedIn yet we must be connect with me on LinkedIn and on Instagram I am prina.shar I will see you somewhere else or in the next episode. Until then goodbye