137. Why We Resist Change… with Jeff Skipper and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change the Workplace with myself Freena Shah. I love what I do. I'm a global leadership coach, a consultant, a trainer, a keynote speaker, a podcaster. I help you to develop your leaders, your teams, and I help you to optimize your organizational cultures. I'm here to help you find ways to change your workplace. Why? Because we spend more time in our waking day at work than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. So in this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with myself, Prina Shah. And I am bringing to you Jeff Skipper, all the way from Calgary in Alberta, in Canada, to you today. Jeff, welcome. How are you?

SPEAKER_03 1:18

I'm doing fantastic. How are you doing, Prina?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

I'm very well, thank you, Jeff. Jeff, today I want to talk about all things change with you. And I've got a big question. I don't know what I'm going to call this episode. I'm thinking why we resist change, maybe the name of this podcast. And Jeff, I want to speak to you for a number of reasons, but if you allow me, I will do a bit of an introduction to you for our audience. Jeff Skipp is an expert in accelerating change. For more than 25 years, Jeff has worked with clients such as IBM, Suncorp, Goldman Sachs, and the Salvation Army. They have all engaged Jeff to achieve dramatic results during strategic transformation. Jeff holds a master's degree in organizational psychology, and he's a certified change management professional and the author of a book called Dancing with Disruption. Jeff, hello and welcome. That book's name, I think, just talks to today, doesn't it? Dancing with Disruption. I think all of our audience listeners today will be thinking, yep, that's a book I need.

unknown 2:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Disruption has changed to the max for sure.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Absolutely so. Jeff, I'm gonna put all of your details in the show notes so people will reach out to you. But shall we kick off? I want to ask you in a world that glorifies innovation and continuous improvement, why do you think that humans in the workplace still resist change?

SPEAKER_03 2:52

What do you think? There's a really basic psychology around that, and we we're still tied into our primitive side of our brains, which is looking at fight or flight when we see something new. Yep. But I gotta say, right off the mark, yeah, when we see something in the environment that actually offers an opportunity, many people flourish. So we got fight, we got flight, we also have freeze where people just stand still, don't know what to do. Yeah, but many people also flourish. And so a lot of, well, actually all of the work that I do with my clients is to figure out how do we maximize the potential that people will flourish when they're faced with change or many changes instead of freezing or fighting or fleeing.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Okay. Well, let's jump into it. So you work on change very much like I do on all sorts of different types of change. So why do you work on that? And I love the fact that you're focused on maximizing the potential of change. Why do you do what you do first off, Jeff?

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Well, number one reason is passion. I absolutely love this. I love seeing people win, and especially when folks are looking at something that they feel is challenging or difficult and not sure what to do. And how do I help them? Now, your first assumption would be okay, that's the employees that have to do something different in the workplace, right? Well, that's true, but it's just as much leaders who hey, I know how to do the technical aspect of a change. So I'm rearranging a department or I'm putting out a new technology.

unknown 4:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

But I'm not sure how to get the people side going. And then folks don't seem to be on board. I did a kickoff, I made an announcement, and everyone nodded their head and it seemed like, yeah, okay, everyone's in line. But then they're not doing what I think they should be doing to embrace the change. And so leaders need just as much help as our employees do in the workplace.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Absolutely so, Jeff. And this takes me back to a couple of weeks ago, I was delivering a training course on uh leading people through change. That's what the session was called. And I had it was really interesting. I had change managers in the room, I had project managers in the room as well, Jeff. And in Australia, the these two areas don't seem to marry as well as they should. So this is a bugbear of mine. So the project managers in the room are very much focused on the gancha and the milestones and all the enemies that they have to meet. And the change agents are saying, Well, have you considered the emotional impact of this change in? Do you come across this? And what is your thinking in this aspect, Jeff?

SPEAKER_03 5:32

I was just sharing with a colleague that just in the last few years, I was asked to participate in a debate, and it was myself representing change management, and then someone else representing project management. And the debate was whether change management could stand on its own as a discipline. And I lost, I did not win that debate. The project managers are like, no, no, we can handle that. We got that side. And yet I continue to hear from people of most project managers do not get it. They don't understand you have to spend significant time and effort focusing on the people side if you really want that to work for you. It's just a lot easier to deal with the Gantt chart and the tasks and how we're doing on the timeline because they're typically measurable. We can put numbers against those things and make it look pretty in the spreadsheet. But the people side is messy. We don't always know how people will react, and folks don't want to deal with emotions, just like you said. And yet they're a reality of all that we do and who we are.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Yeah, is emotional. Absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about that. Let's follow this suit. So some argue that people resist change because it disrupts their comfort zone. So, how can organizations create a culture where discomfort is seen as a catalyst for growth rather than that threat that you talked to earlier?

SPEAKER_03 6:52

My number one area that I work on in this domain is to help leaders appreciate that we have to make failure acceptable. And many don't get that, Jeff. We cannot plan for failure. We must plan for success. I agree. You do need to plan for success. However, it's inevitable that someone's going to do something wrong or not quite exactly as we expect when it comes to change. And that's one of the big drivers of fear, is people don't want to look silly or stupid, or that I've made a major mistake in front of other people. So if we can get in front of that and say, listen, we recognize this is going to be a difficult journey. There's a learning curve. You're going to have to do some things you've never done before. So that, like you said, the future is a little, I'm not sure what's going to happen. We get that. And that can feel uncomfortable and it may lead to some mistakes, but we're here for you. Here are all the supports that we're going to put in place to help you. And if you make a mistake, this is what we can do to make it right. So I always like to refer to, you know, you bought a new piece of furniture and there's some assembly required. On the front page of the instructions is if you run into an error, call this number. So we need to do the same for our employees to say, you may run into trouble. Here's the several things that you can do to get help. Go to your manager, talk to one of the project team, the help desk has been equipped to help you. These are different ways of getting assistance.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Perfect. Acknowledge that it is going to be uncomfortable. We are here for you. So the support element that we need to relay as well.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

That's okay. If things don't go right, then here's the support for you. Here's the people that you can talk to as well. There's being open to the question mark. And that's the question mark that we are so uncertain about that causes that fear. And Jeff, let's be honest. So when we're talking about organizational culture, I've worked in corporate land, you've worked with lots of corporates. Have you worked in corporate as well? Yeah. Absolutely. We are trained to perform and not to fail. So this is the ante of everything that we've been taught as well, you know, that you are proposing. So it would be really difficult. And I'm doing this, control is what I'm talking about. It would be difficult for a leader to let go of that control, you know, as well. But the way that you propose it is that acknowledge we are going to be uncomfortable. I am here to support you. So actually relaying that I am here. And then if things go wrong, which they might, this is how we will, and we will address it, not you.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Rena, can I build on something you just said that was really important? You said at some point it it feels like you're letting go of control of some of these things. And I think that's correct. And one of the reasons that people resist is they feel like things are out of control. You're telling me I have to do things and I have no choice.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

So it's very important that we try to establish a sense of control. And one of the very simple things that leaders can do, and you'll get this right away, because it's just such an easy thing, and we commonly do this as leaders of change, is establish a consistent uh cadence of communication. So meaning we kicked off the project, here's some information. All of a sudden there's 50 questions about it. And I only have answers to 20. So my answer can't be I don't know. It has to be I don't have all the answers yet, but I'm gonna have an update for you on, and then you say the first of every month, or every two weeks on Tuesdays, we're gonna have a meeting and I'll give you an update on what's going on. Or our newsletter is gonna come out and it's gonna have a QA section. We'll answer these things over the course of the next two months, that kind of thing. But the consistency is important because even if you tell me I don't have all the answers today, at least my future is a little bit predictable because I know there's gonna be some answers coming every two weeks or on the first of the month. So I'm creating a bit of a sense of control. I'm reducing the sense of chaos by saying the answers are coming, and here's the schedule upon which you can expect those to start appearing.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Beautiful. So I, as the employee, know when to expect the next update or when to ask the next questions as well. So, hey, we've got that communication channel already opened as well, and I'm not left in, you know, the dark. The other thing I was thinking when you were talking, also, Jeff, is the flip side. So reminding employees when there's you know huge change happening that yes, there's lots of change happening, but there's certainty within your role. There's certain things always within our jobs that still remain the same. So reminding people of that stability as well. You've still got that stability and that security while you know other things are changing. I think we often forget to mention that to people, also, Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Yeah, you're right on the money. So we can even recap right now. We've talked about sense of control, we've talked about communication, and now we're talking about continuity. Yes, there's a lot of things changing, but Preena, let me remind you: here are the things that are not changing. And for folks that are feeling some emotional distress, which we know happens during a change, those things that aren't changing become anchors. Now I have something I can hang on to in the storm, all these things swirling around me. But okay, I know at the end of the day, Prina's still my manager.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

The values of this organization that got us here, not changing. The mission of why we're here, still the same. So you're right on the money. We have to tell people, yes, there are some things you're gonna have to adapt to, but there's some other things that you won't have to adapt to. If you don't mind me adding one more piece around that, please. I could also say, you know, Prina, lots going on, lots of changes, but I want you to know you're bringing skills to the table that you're gonna need in this new role. We got to remind people like it's not like you're starting over, your experience is so important, it's gonna help you with whatever change you're going through.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Okay. So we've just given a good scenario of how to manage change proactively. We talked about control, we talked about communications, and we talked about continuity, as Jeff beautifully said. Now, me as a leader, I'm super busy running around, I'm managing this change. I've got my business as usual work to do, also, Jeff, by the way, you know, on top of everything that I'm managing. Leaders sometimes get it wrong. So leaders can often champion change, but how can they avoid being perceived as the ones pushing for change for its own, you know, for change's sake? There's a delicate balance, isn't there? Do you have any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Yeah, I do. You know, we talked about letting people know that some level of failure of making mistakes is expected. So now I've started to create an expectation that we will not have perfection. So setting expectations up front of saying there may be changes along the way, but there's also demonstrating empathy around where people are at. Really, you see this all the time, I'm sure, as well. We're asking people to do things. Well, I have a full-time job. So they feel like, okay, how am I going to do this? I have to help with this change off the side of my desk, and I have to try and jam it in somewhere. So leaders need to understand, hey, we know this is an extra. And wherever possible, do things to create capacity. Here's another one of our C words. So, Prina, can I help you delegate some of your daily tasks to another area of the business that's not as busy so that you have a bit more time? For example, might we bring in some temporary workers that could offload some of the workload? But even more important, I'm gonna work on your mindset. We've touched on this already. Continuity. You're already bringing stuff to the table that you know how to do. What's that gonna do? Help generate your confidence. That's gonna help you get through this. I'm gonna remind you of how you've navigated other changes in the past really successfully. And one of the biggest examples was COVID. How many things did you have to do differently during COVID? No one likes to talk about it, but I remind them you had to adapt in so many ways during those couple of years. And while that was difficult, you did it successfully. You're still here today working, and you can do some of these things again. So we need those reminders. Leaders need to be empathetic to the fact, yes, you're still working on a full-time job. Yes, this is an extra. We're gonna do all we can to help create capacity so we can deal with this effectively.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

This is beautiful. It takes me back to that training session that I was in a couple of weeks ago, leading people through change, Jeff, and a leader, her name is Claudine. So we're full of C's today, and I've got another C coming up for you. But Claudine mentioned in that session, hey, usually when I manage change or when I'm driving change as the leader, I know about it. I know all of the secrets. I've been preparing for months about it. And then there I go and drop the bomb of the news of change, you know, whether it be a small change, large change, it's still a bit of a bomb drop, so to speak, on my people. And then she continued talking and she said, Prina, the thing that I've realized is that I've had time to digest this information, I've had time to make sense of it. Whereas when I'm dropping that message to my people, this is the first time that they've ever heard it. And I need to be mindful of that and the emotional reactions and everything else to it. And Jeff, what I'm trying to say in a long-winded way is that leaders forget that they've had all of this time to process and go through the change. Your people have not. So different expectations, and we need to have that compassion, another big C word when we are delivering that first message, especially, and then the consistency of that repeat message that you talked to, also, Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Yeah, you said that perfectly. So all I can add is a metaphor to help people understand this. So for you that have been working with this change, you know what's coming. It's like, okay, I'm gonna land this airplane at the airport, easy, long runway.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

What we do is we then tell our employees, oh, by the way, you're gonna have to land in the jungle over here, and the runway is only this long now. It's like, what? So you've had a lot more time to prepare and ensure it's gonna be safe, and they feel like, what, we're gonna land this thing in the jungle, and there's only half a runway available. I just don't have time. So it's gonna be really difficult to make it. So instead, we need to get up front as much as possible, let people know early there's a change coming, start giving them details because just like you said, it takes time for some, not everyone, but for some to process this and get comfortable with the new reality that's coming.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Beautiful. Okay, let's use another C-word, a very important C-word. I think potentially the biggest C-word in this podcast. How does a leader address the challenge of aligning change initiatives with the existing company culture? I've got reasons I'm asking this. What are your thoughts, Jeff?

SPEAKER_03 18:01

Well, first we I think we need to start with definition. What is culture? And culture is the collection of the way we do things around here. It's established. So it does come back down to behaviors. What are behaviors? Well, they're underpinned by the values within the organization. So it's a great question. I think that every change that we're rolling out needs to align with number one, strategy. And I thought I was gonna say culture. It's got to be strategy first. Where are we going as an organization? There's a purpose in what we're doing, but the way that we do it needs to align with the way we do things around here. What is the culture? What are the values? Let's take the hardest example. All right, so we're gonna be merging with another organization. We could just as easily do this with a system implementation as well. But let's say a merger. And as a result of this, it's gonna be great for the organization, but we know there will be redundancies or we're gonna lose some people. Very common. Well, how do we line that up with values? Because we said, you know, our people come first, we're a compassionate organization, et cetera, et cetera. Well, we need to be honest with our people. Yes, we recognize there may be, because we don't know yet, we don't know all the answers, but there may be some job loss along the way. However, I want to reassure you that if we are going to lose any positions, those people will be taken care of in the following ways. And then you can run a list. So they'll have appropriate severance, we're gonna make sure they get job coaching so that they're prepared for the next role. We're gonna connect them with recruiters, et cetera. So at least even if I'm one of the ones who's not losing their job, I don't have survivor guilt because I know the folks that are leaving have been taken care of whatever way that we can. But that has to align up. Organizations don't always get that right. Leaders don't always get that right. You know, we're just trying to get things done, and time is money, and we're gonna push people out the door. Well, that can ruin culture very fast. You're losing credibility, and folks no longer believe that this is a humane place to work. So we have to consider not only doing the right thing that aligns with the values, but second, if we don't, what is the harm we're doing to the organization's reputation, credibility, and our ability to lead the next change? Because if I mess it up and I hurt people on this one, are you gonna feel great about the next change? Are you gonna step up and want to participate? Are you more likely to resist? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Loaded question. And that's why I asked it. Exactly so. No doubt, Jeff, you work with many a HR professional as well. And HR professionals are trained up in the sexiest change management skills, and you know, they've got, gosh, ProSai, ADCAR, you name it, Cotta, all of the best change management methodologies they're trained up in. So I was presenting to a HR conference last year, and I asked the room to put up their hands, who's qualified in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Many hands went up. And then I gave an example of four organizational cultures, right? One being the sexiest of the sexiest, ready for change, and then others not being so ready. So all of these people who are really highly qualified, what kind of culture do you have? Not quite ready for change. So why are you trying to apply your sexiest theories to something where it's not going to land as well? That was the other big bug there of mine, Jeff. So we need to meet the culture where it's at. And the way that you beautifully uh relate it is actually understanding your culture, your values, and going back to that for your decision making capacity during the change process. How do we want people to feel? How do I want my professional brand to come across as well, Jeff? And I'm really glad that you mentioned that when you harm during change, people are going to remember. And that is the worst thing. That is the worst thing. For your professional brand as a leader, you cannot rise from that. It takes years to wipe that slate clean as well.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

You just raised a very important point. There's a difference between understanding the skill of how to lead change. So, in other words, okay, we got a project, we need to uh set people up for success. And there's a number of events and tactics we can use to do that. But on a broader level, looking at the organization as a whole, the enterprise, we need to think about how do I create a resilient culture? And that's different. So within a project, I've got tactics I can use and they'll be very successful. But when we talk about creating resilience and an adaptive mindset within the organization, that's a higher level set of activities. And I think not as many people know how to do it. And that's exactly what you found when you asked that question of your audience.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

That's it. Now, with change, we always have naysayers, people who disagree with the change. And I think they're beautiful people. So some argue that resistance to change provides valuable insight. How can organizations leverage this resistance as a source of learning and improvement rather than a hurdle to overcome Jeff?

SPEAKER_03 23:13

I completely agree. Resistance signifies energy. There's enough energy around this topic that you're now hearing about it and you're hearing about it in a negative way, that folks aren't bought in. So I want to give you a story about this that illustrates how we can deal with this. So I was working on a major change. It had radical changes for the organization. And one of them involved changing a numbering system, which sounds as simple, it really is simple. The issue is that the organization would set up projects and the project number would include identifier. So let's say the first two digits were 24 for 2024, then a cost center, then a type. And it had four or five of these codings in there, but it was all manual. And in the new system, it would be we're going to start with project number one, then two, it's going to be linear sequential. So we're here to all this buzz around yeah, this sequential numbering that you're doing, we're calling it the stupid numbering system. People really hated this thing. So, like this seems odd because it's such a simple thing. So, what did we do? I said, let's go talk to folks. We did, and they told us, listen, Jeff, as one example, when an invoice comes in from one of our vendors, they will quote the project. We look at that number and we know five things about it. In the future, when we we get and it says, this is project zero zero zero zero one, we have to go look that up in a system and consult five or six different fields in order to determine that this is correct before we can approve it. So, what would be a couple seconds for us to review and approve now takes 30 seconds, 45 seconds. Multiply that by 200, 250 invoice. Right. You got it. So, what was simple to us when we listen to what people are saying, we realize, oh, okay, we get it. The resistance is actually understandable. Now, here's the kicker in this. So we took that to the executive team. They said, Okay, got it. We're gonna talk about what we want to do. And they came back and said, We heard you and we've decided we're gonna go through with this change anyways. But we understand your pain, and here's some things we're gonna put in place to help you. It won't eliminate the pain, but it will help. When we implemented this change, the amount of noise we had around this issue was exactly zero. Oh and so even though we had resistance and we couldn't resolve it 100%, the fact that we gave people a voice, we listened, we reflected back, and we did what we could help resolve their feelings of negativity.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

You've created a dialogue, you've heard me.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

It's a way of demonstrating for me what's the most important C-word is culture's up there, but for me it's care.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

When leaders demonstrate they care about individuals in the organization and how they navigate through change, that often motivates it, helps people to get through it.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Absolutely. Beautifully said. And you know, naysayers, people who are resistant to change, they're really interesting, fascinating people from, you know, my perspective and no doubt your perspective as well. Jeff, they're probably the ones who are saying a lot of the stuff that's often in people's minds, but that others are not relaying. So I always say when we're working on change projects, please also listen to the naysayers. Don't just listen to them, ask the why. Try to understand and create that dialogue, a two-way dialogue. Because we will uncover some cans of worms, which potentially will save us money, time, resources, who knows?

SPEAKER_03 26:51

You got it. That's the whole reason we do it is we're helping leaders get a return on their investment. And those investments are significant. They cannot get those returns without people.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Yeah, that's it. So we're talking about communication and you know, communication as a dialogue. And often communication from a change management perspective is one way. So communication is often cited as a key factor in change management. We all know that. How can organizations communicate change effectively without creating anxiety or skepticism among employees, Jeff?

SPEAKER_03 27:25

My number one recommendation in this area is fully educate your middle managers on the change before you roll it out to the organization. And this gets messed up all the time. You know, the announcement comes out and people have some questions, but then they go back to their desk or go back to their job and they're thinking, I've got a few more questions. So they go to their leader, their manager, say, Hey, do you know? And the manager says, No, I don't. What just happened to the credibility of the entire project? So that's a big one of ensuring that your entire leadership is well versed on what's happening and equipped to answer the questions, or they know where to go to get the answers.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yeah. Can I add to that? I think the other missing piece as well, and you know, we talk about this all the time. When we're leading change, we've got to be visionary storytellers. But Jeff, we cannot learn that overnight. I think there's some upskilling to do as well. We need to train our leaders on important ways to communicate change, especially. You know, there's a different knack to it, especially when we're dealing with big change in an organization that's going to impact a lot of people. This is me or my high horse again. I don't feel that we train managers enough at that level. And I'm really pleased that you mentioned the middle managers. They're the ones who are actually going to have to implement that change as well, right? So they're the meat in between the sandwich, essentially.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

That's exactly right. And, you know, I remind people, middle managers are often caught in a difficult situation because they need to help people through it. And that takes a lot of effort. They also are trying to navigate the change themselves, and we need to have empathy around that as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Okay, I'm going to throw a wild card at you now. So something that I've been dealing with and something that I have been posed with as well is Prina, I'm a middle manager. I've been given this top-down command about the change. I've had a few months to digest it. I am still not feeling it, but I have to now relay it to my people. So, Jeff, there's this cognitive dissonance that happens within an individual, especially at that middle manager level. What would you say to those middle managers who are feeling that cognitive dissonance?

SPEAKER_03 29:33

I think it's the same as when we're supporting employees that are not quite bought in yet. So, what do we do in that situation? Well, we need to understand where they're coming from. So I want to ask them, what are you seeing as barriers? Like what's not sitting quite right for you? Help me understand that. Because even though you know the phrase whiff 'em, we always say, you got to tell people what's in it for me. Yeah. But if I say, Prina, here's what's in it for you. And then I go to Brenda, here's what is in it for you. It probably isn't the same list because what you think is valuable is different from what someone else thinks is valuable. So, same for leaders, managers, they're looking for certain things which you may or may not have told them. So we need to ask them, what's a barrier for you? What's not quite clicking? And let's try and work towards that understanding together.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Beautiful. I think that's often a missing piece within the workplace. You know, the powers that be may well decide on the change, but it's having those conversations with the people who are going to have to relay that change or enable the change as well, to understand from their perspective what kind of dialogue do we need to have with them? Is this actually going to land? Is this going to work? If not, what do we need to do to rectify? I don't know, the best laid plans and all of that. We can have contingency plans, you know, until the cows come home. But even with our contingency planning, if we haven't had the right conversations, there will be things that we'll miss, right, Jeff?

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Yeah, the struggle for leaders is the fact that we see this. All the training we've done in leading change says communicate. And it's on a group level. But we know that change is a decision made by individuals. So we can't escape having those one-on-one conversations. And that's often what looks like a big struggle for middle managers. Is what I got a babysit this? No, you should already be having discussions with each of your people already. This is just one topic on the menu. Make sure they're feeling comfortable. Answer their questions.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Yes. Beautiful. Jeff, I could speak to you forever, but I've got one very important question for you. One very important. Mr. Jeff Skipper, if I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace? You can be as creative as you want.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

I would love to see more employees from each level of the organization involved at the strategy level, providing input. It may sound strange, but it is all about buy-in. One, having a voice and hopefully seeing that reflected in where the organization's going. But secondarily, giving that them that exposure to say this is how we determine where the organization goes. It isn't just people at the top making random decisions that then roll down and we're expected to comply. But that sense that, hey, there is a voice for members of the organization all throughout is very powerful. And not many organizations do that well, but there's lots of great ways to do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Jeff, okay, can we just confirm? I did not feed this information to you. I didn't pay you to say this. I didn't even know what you were going to say, right? So just last week, last Thursday, Jeff, I was with an executive team and I was having a conversation with them about they've got this new strategic plan coming up. And they've got great grand plans. I said, right, so how are you going to create it? We'll create it. I said, no. How are you going to co-create it with your people? Because they're the ones who are going to actually deliver it and enable it. And it's that clear line of sight of if I've had input into this, it is my baby. Of course I'm going to achieve this strategic plan, you know. So, Jeff, I didn't tell you, I didn't ask you for any of this, did I?

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Hey, you know what they say? Great mind single.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

I'm going to share this episode, especially with the CEO that I was speaking to, Jeff. Until the next time, I cannot thank you enough, Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Oh, you're very welcome. It's been my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

How good was that episode? If you liked it, be sure to share it with a couple of other people. Also in the show notes are details about my newsletter. Keep in touch. I send a newsletter out around once a month. It won't be spammy, it will be very practical. And if we're not connected on LinkedIn yet, we must be connect with me on LinkedIn. And on Instagram, I am prina.sharp. I will see you somewhere else or in the next episode. Until then, goodbye.