14. 5 Ways to Improve Workplace Culture through Story with David Pullan and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:06

I'm welcome to this episode of ways to change the website with myself clean episode. I love what I do. I look over leadership coach. I cry so a clean up. A cleanup speed craft. I help you to develop your leaders, your teams, and I help you to optimize your organizational coaches. I'm here to help you to find ways to change your place life because we spend more time in a waiting day all the things that we do with a loved one. It has to be a good place to be. So in this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing tool leaders and then some similar episodes from myself as well. I'm really, really pleased to be talking with David Cullen today. Now, David once was in South Australia, and he's now in the south of the UK, south of London.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

That's right. Southeast of UK.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Southeast of the UK. And David is known as the story spotter. What is that? We're going to find out all about that shortly, David. And David, I want to talk to you today about five ways to improve workplace culture through story. That's what our premise is going to be for our conversation. I can't wait to see where it goes. Before we go into it, David, can you tell us who you are, what you do, and why you do it?

SPEAKER_02 1:42

For sure. I can say with pretty much certainty that I'm one of only two story spotters in the world because the other one is my wife. And we weren't the story spotters until about a year ago, or actually during that first lockdown of COVID in the UK. Before that, my wife is called Sarah Jane McKechnie, and I'm David Pullen. And we were McKechnie Pullen Limited, which says nothing to anyone. It tells no story to anyone about anything. And I was I was supporting a professor at INSIAD on some storytelling courses in Singapore online during the first lockdown. And he said, David, I love what you do, but what do you actually do? And I said, Well, mainly my job is going into organizations, listening to, especially in business development and helping them on big bids and listening to their story, listening to listen, or listening to their facts essentially, and stopping them when I think they've arrived at a story that is going to connect with the audience. And he went, Oh, you're a story spotter. And I said, That sounds very cool. Yes, I think I am. From this very moment onwards, I am a story spotter. And so Sarah Jane and I sat down and we thought, what do we do? We do four things essentially. We help our clients spot shape and share the stories that are going to connect with clients, but also in leadership terms internally. We help you in terms of the stories that people infer through your behaviors. So how you show up as a leader, how you walk the corridors, you know, uh what we did show up on Zoom more often than not these days. People infer a story about you. Then there are the stories that you get from other people in terms of how you uh in terms of how you actually sort of have the conversation. And the last thing is what story are you telling yourself about yourself? And is that going to help you or is that going to hinder your process? So the story spotters is a relatively new branding of a very old game that we've been in for a well, as you can see, for a very long time.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

That's cool. So it sounds like you work with organizations as well as individuals. So you work at that high level and at that one-to-one level as well.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's you know, I'm off I'm often in I I'm I'm often brought in at C-suite level, and then they can see that that their immediate reports need, well, funnily enough, we're doing exactly that with some. There's a there's a big organization we're working with at the moment that the chief exec brought us in at. We work with the board members, but of course, their reports, it's a it's a change of strategy. So how do they actually tell the story that is going to make that strategy genuinely stick and fly in people's minds?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yes, good. We need more people like you, David. Now, storytelling is such an important skill for leaders, especially when we're trying to change a culture or bring about any kind of change, let's say, because a compelling story is something that I'm gonna latch on to as you know, the leaders' follower, so to speak. Um, but it's such a skill that's lacking.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

I think it's do you know what, Prina? I would say that it's a it's a skill that's misunderstood rather than it's lacking, because I genuinely believe that everyone has it in them. They just don't apply that skill from their from from their day-to-day life into their work life, or they see that it isn't necessarily a professional thing. Culturally, different cultures will say, Oh no, we don't like storytelling. And you sit with them and they tell you stories. I mean, they actually it happens because as human beings, we can't help ourselves. A, we are fascinated by human interaction, who did what to whom and what happened at the end of it. And structurally, in terms of a narrative, it's how we we organize our lives. We have a context that we we we are existing in. There is a problem that needs to be overcome, and therefore something has to do to actually make that to overcome that problem. It is a narrative structure which is essentially a story. So we do it in the pub, we do it in the bar with a glass of wine in our hand, telling our friends about the holidays we've been on or not been on recently. And uh, but but but we we we forget that skill when we put our leadership hat on or our business hat on. And I think that that in actual fact it's something to be rediscovered and something to be refined, because there are there are nuances to it as well in terms of leadership and business.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Absolutely so. So, how do I dust off my storytelling skill set in the workplace?

SPEAKER_02 6:03

The first thing I would say to you about that, and it's a fantastic question, by the way. The first thing you need to dust it off is just realize what is story at its most essential. At its most essential, story is about transferring imagery from your head into somebody else's head. Um, there are two ways we can experience things. We can we can experience them through either actually doing them. I can walk out of my door now and go and have a cup of tea for breakfast in the UK at eight o'clock in the morning. Or somebody could tell me about that beautiful cup of tea that's going to be sitting there waiting for me when we finished our podcast. I mean, we can experience it in two ways. So, dusting off is really about practicing um the art of transference of imagery. What do you see in your head and how can you get it into the head of the person who is listening to you? And I often say to any leaders who are parents, that is the best gift you have been given. Tell your kids stories at bedtime because they are a terrible audience. And if you're bad at it, you'll be the first to know.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, true. Perfect. And you make a brilliant, brilliant point about the visual imagery of what's in one's head to translate that to you know your team, whatever it might be. Um, and when change or culture change is man managed in that respect, um, bringing those kind of visual clues or you know, visual stimulants to someone's mind really helps us deal with change and actually embrace change rather than sometimes, you know, we're quite resistant to resistant to change within the workplace.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

We are for very good reasons, for very good evolutionary reasons. We don't want it to happen. We want to feel safe. And or if we or if we're going to do something daring, when we need to know that there is a plan and that there is something that we are going to be able to do in order to overcome problems. So I I think that and and we we too often, and this is what I mean about uh about when we get into leadership positions or when we get into business generally, we think it's all about the fact, and it is about the fact. Absolutely. Fact, I uh I call myself a story spotter, but I love facts. What I do is I put those facts in context and I tell them, get people to tell them with some feeling because that that appeals to the head, it gives it a context where people think, okay, this is what I need to do as I'm sort of increasing the year-end, whatever it is. Um, and uh, and it also appeals to the heart as well, because nobody did anything unless they felt it. That's the thing about story.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, absolutely so. And you talk about a really good point in relation to facts and data. Uh they can be dull as anything within the workplace, or we can use that information, that intel that we already have our hands in the workplace to tell a story. It's a rare thing to actually use that data to tell a story, but it can be done. I work with a brilliant, brilliant guy, um Chris is his name, and he's actually from the UK as well. And he's one of these rare people who is just a data nerd first and foremost, especially in the HR world, we love our data nerds, but then he used to be able to translate that data into meaningful stories for the whole organization. And our our team just excelled then eventually at using data to predict, to make change, and to do wonderful things then.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

It's a real skill, and I mean there are people who are uh you can read wonderful things. Nancy Duarte is wonderful on on data storytelling. And I mean, I I do a lot of that work with my clients as well, and uh I it's an interesting one, this isn't it, because because essentially story is about character. I said earlier that we, you know, we're fascinated by human beings, what they do to each other and what happens. The the difference is, and I'm going to caveat this in a second, is that it is that when you're doing a piece of data storytelling, and let's say you have a graph up on a screen, the various elements of the of the data that you were talking about become the characters. What do they do? Where do they cluster? Where are their massive changes? What are the interesting points? Because you'll often find that those are the the points where where there's a big change in the numbers or in a number, or or there's a there's a point where things converge together, you think, ah, right, okay, that's where people's minds are going to be drawn to. What's happening there? And therefore, what can we extrapolate from that into the future? Um, so your your your elements within your graph, within your within your um, yeah, your graph become uh the characters. Having said that, I think then, therefore, when you're extrapolating to the future, you can then bring it back to human beings as well and humanize the the elements. What does that mean to us right here, right now?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Yeah, yeah. Beautifully done. Um, so how do we improve workplace culture through story? We've talked about, I guess, engaging with employees in the sense that when we are telling a story, we're bringing them into our minds and our vision, which aren't our vision through storytelling. Uh, you've talked about uh data and using data to tell a story. That's completely a beautiful way to make change. Other ways.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

I think, I think, Preena, it's really about it's really about the tone from the top. And that's why I love working with leaders on this. I mean, I've I have had situations where I've been into organizations that worked at a more junior level on storytelling, and it hasn't been adopted by the senior leadership or by the board. And you get the feedback saying, well, this is all well and good, you know, it's really lovely, we're really enjoying this, but it's not modeled at the top. It has to be modeled at the top and cascaded down, otherwise, nothing changes whatsoever. And I've, as I say, I've had a number of situations where where I've fallen foul of that in the past. Um, leaders have to leaders have to see storytelling as part of their armory. They just genuinely have to do that, they have to be seen to be doing it so that they create a storytelling organization. Because that's when the cascade happens. It's sort of it, yeah. I can't say it any other way. The cascade of information, the cascade of change happens within that. And I also mean that by the way, in terms of behavior as well, because I I mentioned that one of the other things that we do as as at Story Spotters is help people through the stories that they create through their behavior. And I I remember I was an actor many, many years ago. I mean, I before I started this, I when I first came to the UK, I worked in the Royal Shakespeare Company in the National Theatre and places like that. And I remember one of the companies I was working at. I I joined and I went to their first day rehearsal. I was walking through the corridors, and there's this person shuffling down the corridor. And I said, Oh, who's that? And they said, Oh, that's the artistic director. I went, he doesn't look much like a director to me or a leader to me. And they said, Oh, he's very shy. And I thought, he's not paid to be shy. He's paid to lead, he is paid to actually set the tone. And I've worked with some extraordinary people who actually do set the tone. And and and and so that that's the answer to your question is it is your job as you are walking the walk, as you are talking the talk, every leader, whether they turn up on screen, whether they turn up in a corridor, it is their job to set the tone through the stories they create, through the behaviors as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Yeah, because yeah, now we're talking culture change as well, because you have to practice what you preach as well, which is the other thing, because then we're held accountable because people can really read the BS if you're saying this in terms of your story or your compelling case, and then you're behaving like this. They need to marry.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

What is the point in a mismatch? It's uh it's you know, there's it just doesn't work at all. And that's that that comes down to it's an interesting world, this storytelling world, because it it you throw a stick at LinkedIn and there's every every you'll get a million storytellers. But people sometimes get a little bit um, what shall I say? They get a bit little bit wary of that that it's a bit that it's a bit fluffy storytelling, and that if I actually put any emotion into it, if I Hollywoodize my as they as I've heard it said to me in the past, my storytelling, then it won't be taken seriously. And I agree, but it has to be authentic. Yes, and if you were to if you are telling your child a story about why they mustn't jump into that river there because you know, five years ago a person was taken by a crocodile in there, believe me, you'll have some emotion in it, but it'll be authentic, it'll be it'll be it'll be genuine. I mean, it's not sort of I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to plaster bad acting onto their storytelling, but feel something, transfer you don't just transfer that imagery, transfer that feeling. A good story that here's a quote for you a good story makes people see what is happening, a great story makes people feel what is happening, it's not mine.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

It's a brilliant one, it's a brilliant one. Um, okay, I've got a bit of a tricky question for you.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Love it.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

I am a leader who is very senior in the organization, and the execs have their own culture or their own stance on stuff, let's say I don't completely believe in it, however, I've got to relay the same message. That's something that a lot of my coaches deal with, and it's such an internal conflict as well, David. How does one even address that? How does one deal with that? Especially because of the fact that we're talking about this behavior, you know, you've got to practice what you preach as well.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Yeah, no, it's a it's a it's a great question. It's a great question. I think I do have an answer, or I have a suggestion rather than the answer. I mean, because let's think about this. So I think this comes down to understanding the other stories that people are telling themselves, you know, that they're the what are the why are they doing what they're doing? And there will be a reason. I mean, generally, these people, you know, are not doing it because they're bad people or because they're psychopaths, they've been behaving in a certain way because it has it has surfed them. So you need to under, as that leader who is trying to change the behaviors of others, you need to start with um, you need to start with understanding. You need to start by understanding their story. There is a brilliant, brilliant narrative structure that I learned by a guy who used to be a guy called Randy Olson. Dr. Randy Olson, who who was a uh uh an evolutionary biologist at Harvard for many years and then trained as a trained as a filmmaker. And he hasn't invented, but he standardized this structure, which is called the ABT, and but therefore. It's also um very popularized by Park Howell, who has a podcast called The Business of Story. Um and what this stands for, it stands for and but therefore. The and bit is the agreement, it's the bit where you say to somebody, it's the bit where you get them nodding, and then you'll they'll say, Oh, yes, you understand me. And so in this situation that you're you're you're talking about here, Preena, you might sort of say to the to to those execs, uh you've been working in this way for a number of years and it served you incredibly well. You've actually had a number of excess, and then the but comes in. The but is the is the change moment, it's act two in the story, it's where the the shark appears in jaws. It's but if we carry on in this situation, we are going to take a serious drop in head count because people are disengaged from the business, our our net promoter scores, or whatever it is. Therefore, and that's the T. The therefore, therefore, I really believe we need to, and that's when you come with your solution. I think it starts with understanding. Nobody changed anybody by it. It it's there are two forms of influence. There's there's push influence, there's where you sort of like try to push an idea onto people. And we all know what happens with pushing. People push back, they they they they you know, you watch it in rugby, you sort of two scrums bashing against each other. And then this pull influence where you pull people in. And I think story is great as a pull influence. What happens is that you you you hook people in, and in in this ABT framework, the end is about yes, I understand you, I understand you. And then you pull them into the butt, which is but we carry on in this way, X is going to happen. Therefore, I think we should. So, I mean, that's that would be my that would be the structure that I would take with that, that conversational structure, which you can also use in story, you can use in presentation. It's a it's it's a very, very powerful narrative tool.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

And so simple.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

And um yes, simple, but quite profound. It's uh it it's it the basics of it, it's funny. I I I use it all the time in in competitive tenders, I use it all the time, and people have exactly the reaction you've just had to it. There, this is wonderful, this is very simple. My job is actually sort of like refining it for them and actually getting to the depths of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Well, I'll have to if if, say, one of my coaches was doing the ABT kind of um uh framework that you've just described to us, they'd have to do their homework, they'd have to, you know, research, and that you can't just it just can't come out immediately. So you have to do your due diligence first off, and you are respectfully disagreeing with someone but acknowledging the hard work that they have done in the past to get them to wherever they are or whatever's happened thus far. You're not missing anything, which is a really important point.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

I agree with you. Sometimes I uh you you there's the challenge that people say, well, you shouldn't use the word but because but is such a strong word, and it's sort of you can't you use however, and yes, you could use however, but but that little word, those three letters, they're that you know, they're very Anglo-Saxon. There's something strong and punchy about them. And as soon as people hear the word but, they think to themselves, okay, there's a there's a situation coming up here. And we're not talking about, you know, in feedback, you would probably use the word however or something like that, but in great powerful communication, the word but lets people know we're changing here. That's something I need to really sit up and pay attention to.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

A word carries a lot of weight, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yeah, a lot of heavy lifting for three letters.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yes, indeed. Um, do you have any real life examples that you can talk about without obviously breaking confidence? Um, I mean, the world has really changed. Uh, comms have just gone through the roof thanks to the pandemic and various crisis comms and just everything that's happening. Um, but storytelling is going to be here through, you know, the test of times, not even just now, but yeah, forever. Do you have any real life examples you could possibly share, David?

SPEAKER_02 21:17

I have, without sort of naming names, but I mean, you know, literally every every day, every day I do it. I mean, I've just been working with a with a wonderful team who I think are pitching at this very moment. They're in a different time zone to me for something which would literally change their business. It would change, it would change their business. And and they have a wonderful story with lots and lots of facts. And um I've been working with them for the last week over a number of hours, just actually individually and as a team, structuring finding that story, spotting that story and turning into a narrative structure. Um, I've I've I I I work a lot with with organizations. As I say, in business development, I can't say who they are, but I mean they but but but they have won millions of dollars and pounds worth of work as a result of it. I mean, of course, it's not all my doing, but I'd like to think that I play some part in it. Similarly, have a conversation straight after this call in about 9 a.m. UK time with another uh big global firm who who want to introduce it internally as well, within the internal market, because um, and and and it's very much about two part how what is the story and how do you tell that story? Uh, because more often than not, within organizations, internal departments are having to sell themselves to each other as well. So that there are a number of the a number of examples. I mean, I I get called in for many situations where story is going basically, it's the glue that brings people together. And let me just let me just actually, there's an interesting one here, isn't it? Because I I I want to talk about that. When I say story, I don't want people to think that it's all once upon a time there were three bears who lived, you know, it's that is what yeah, I would call, and other people would call a closed loop story. And you don't often get a chance to tell those in business. You will do in a presentation, you know. I want to tell you about a time when we had a big success implementing this blah, and they, you know, you can tell that story then because you have the platform. But like I said earlier on, story can be an open loop story as well, where you actually sort of tell a partial story about, you know, um, oh, do you know? Last week I was talking to Prina on this podcast, and she was in Perth, and I was in the UK, and she asked me this amazing question about how leaders can apply storytelling into their day-to-day business. And then people go, tell me more about that. They lean in because you've introduced a character, you've introduced a time, you've introduced a place, you've told it with a bit of passion. So there are storytelling techniques that you can use conversationally in order to get people to lean in and go, tell me more. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Yeah. Yeah. And when you were talking about the sales teams that you've supported, you talked about pitching. And I often find uh within the workplace, oh my gosh, leaders, anyone, you have to sell your message, you've got to pitch your change idea, whatever you're trying to do, you have to sell yourself first and foremost. So, David, one of the things I talk about is, you know, your professional brand and how you hone your skills. And I think storytelling is a skill that every successful individual within the corporation needs to have.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

I completely agree with that. I completely agree with that. And finding your stories from your past as well that demonstrate your values, which I think is really interesting. I I work with um people who are um one-on-one with a lot of people who are sort of like going for new jobs or going for partnership promotion or going for what board positions. And the number of times when you know they get that question, so tell me a bit about yourself. And you know, the temptation is to roll out the CV, which nobody wants to listen to, nobody's gonna remember anyway. Um, exactly why. Um there's one great example, it's the one that I always trot out for this. I was working with a woman who's going for partnership in a big organization, and she came out with this story and she about how she'd literally built her, no, she'd renovated her house from top to bottom via watching YouTube videos. And I said, tell me more about that. She I said, have you have you actually had you done any building? Nothing. She'd done nothing. She said, you know, I come from a family who are quite good at that stuff, but I had certainly hadn't done any of it. And she learned all about this stuff. And the way that she the way that she managed to incorporate that, you said, so tell me a little about yourself. Well, I think I'm probably quite a good sole starter, and I sort of really have a head for sort of like learning things that might cause me discomfort. You know, for example, I've and then she told the story about renovating her house. Well, in the hour interview, they didn't ask her anything about her business case. They they were just fascinated by how she'd done the, you know, the the wiring and the plumbing and the you know, the plastering. I mean, they you know, and and she made partner.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

I mean, it's she hooked them, she connected on a genuine level.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

That's exactly what she did, and that's the power of the story.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Oh, brilliant! You, oh my gosh, you just took me back to my first ever interview when I moved to Australia was with a HR director of Sydney Water. So wow, scary, scary, scary. You know, you're meeting with you know the big boss. Um, he looks at my CV and then just smiles it away and says to me, Tell me about yourself. So, Peter, do you want me to tell you about me personally, me professionally? What do you want? He said, Up to you. Um, I I mixed it up with a little bit of professional and personal as well, just to show him, like you, the lady that you just spoke about, what I have achieved thus far in life, you know, because I'm a human being first and foremost, as well as a worker.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Um, and you know, we are. I mean, I think there's there's massive power in marrying those two together. I mean, what do you do in your life, which is in your personal life? And what does what does that say about you? Because there's a there's a there's an exercise that I actually haven't done it for a while, but in group, in group work where you'll say to you'll say to everybody, come and tell me a story, come and tell the group a story about a time when you overcame or you achieved something that you never thought you'd be able to do, that came as a shock, or you had to go and do it and and and what happened. And I've had people telling me about hanging out of helicopters and belize. I've had or you know, snake bites being all sorts of things. And from all of them, you can infer a lot about that person. And if you can tell that story, which makes people go, I'm sorry, you did what? And then you and then you then you relate that back to. So I suppose, you know, one of the things is big for me at work is my care for other people, or the fact that I sort of am always trying to solve problems, you know, in in in in a crisis, is you know, there are many ways to to to marry the personal to the to the professional, I think.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

We are all storytellers, David. I have one final question for you, David. If I was to give you a magic wand and ask you what is one way you would change the way of the workplace, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 28:55

I think you probably know what I'd say. It's uh I i it would be it would be that story was given the place that it is needed, that that I genuinely believe it it deserves within the book in the workplace. I I I think that I think it would be taught at universities more as well. I mean it is it is taught on MBAs, and I've worked on MBAs with that, but it's um it's a bit of an elective rather than sort of like the main thing there. I think it should, I think I if I waved my wand, it would be as important as the STEM subjects. And the trouble is the arts, and let's call this, there's a there's a science and there's an art to storytelling. But I think you know, we've got to marry the two together. That's what I that's what I do. I would give it the I would give it the power of the STEM subjects.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

100%. I would rename STEM to STEAM, having that A in the middle to art, storytelling, the art of. You know, we so need that as individuals, it's so lacking in the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Oh, that's fantastic. STEAM, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

That's it.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Very good.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Well, with that, I will bid you farewell and thank you so so much today for your time, David. It's a pleasure to get to know you.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

And I think I've loved it so much.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

I think there might be more conversations in the future.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Let's do it. Always happy to talk to you pretty near. It's been it's been such fun.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

If you want to meet great thinkers who stand against crappy workplace cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams, then you need to join the Ways to Change Your Workplace Facebook group, which is linked in today's show notes. I will see you in the next episode. Bye for now.