140. Culture is the Way We Do Things with Prina Shah Interviewed by Joeri Schilders

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah, where we uncover ways to make your workplace a much better place to be. Hello, hello, and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast. I am on deep thinking mode at the moment. Deep thinking in the sense of really getting all of my concepts together as to why I have written this book, what it's about, what it's for, and I'm looking back at past podcast episodes where I have been interviewed, where I have handed someone else the mic. And this episode is brought to you by my friend, the wonderful Yuri Shielders, who is based in the Netherlands now, and he owns a creative agency called The Magic Source. And Yuri used to have a podcast called The Rebel Rules. How cool is a podcast name, right? And I was interviewed on it by Yuri, and I have listened to it myself, and I'm giving you the goods now. I find it really beneficial to listen back to interviews that I have done to understand my thinking process and my language and everything else that comes with it. So I thought, while I've been listening into it, why not share the love with you too? So this is what I am about, and this is what I shared with my wonderful friend Yuri. Now, if you want Yuri's details, I know you will after listening to this, check them out in the show notes and you have to connect with him. He is one of the most creative people that I know, and one of the kindest and one of the funniest people I know as well. So check out Yuri. And if you haven't yet, get onto the launch squad for my book, which is called Make Work Meaningful. It's a practical book and it shows you how to create a culture that will leave a legacy. It is more than you, it's more than me. It's all about creating a workplace that is meaningful. So the details about that are in the show notes as well. And hey, if you're listening to this in the future, my book is published. My book will be out there in sales world. Buy it to make work meaningful. So if you're future listening, thank you so much for listening in. I really appreciate you. And if you're a current listener, thank you. I can't do this without you. Let's make work meaningful together, people.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Okay, over to Yuri now. Now you own the culture that tagline smells to me like town hall corporate speak. What is a culture? Collective of beliefs? How would you define a culture?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Organizational culture is the way we do things around here. You know, it's all of the unsaid rules of belonging, if you want to call it that. It's all of the unsaid stuff. So let's imagine if you apply for a job and the organization just seems amazing. The brand is beautiful, which is completely sexy, you've applied for it and you're there now. You've been there around three months, and yeah, you know, you're over. You see the brand and all of that, but then you see this extra layer of stuff, whether it be behaviors, uh approachability of people, basically the way things are done and the way that you fit into an organization is the organizational culture. So it's all of that stuff which is beneath the iceberg that's you know not very tangible initially until you get in there, until you feel it and breathe it and live it.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

And how has that changed this year? Because, well, we're all kind of here behind screens. Are people still connecting? Because I so I hear things like culture is is is big on the agenda for companies right now. Most companies, at least what the ones I'm seeing, are actually not talking about culture, they're talking much more about short-term tactics. Like, what do we need to do to survive? Let's just get into Q1 of 2021, let's see what happens. Yeah, but the culture is always a big topic because your your culture is your personality. Now, that has of course has changed. Some of the things I'm hearing is because we're all working online, we we don't have to banter anymore, we're not really connect with the culture, which is very functional. And let's start a conversation and let's have a status update and stuff. What do you see? What are you seeing? How is this year shaped cultures?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

The organizations that already had a good culture prior to COVID are doing a little bit better off, just from my perspective, doing a little bit better off than the organizations that didn't have a defined culture or didn't have the best culture. The good organizations I can talk to first off, they're the organizations where you know manager employee has trust, they were open to disruption in the first place, anyway, pre-COVID. So they were quite um receptive to change. Then there's the other organizations who are very stuck in their ways, traditional, and this is the way we've always done it, those kind of organizations who are still stuck in their ways and not moving as fast as they need to be. So, Yuri, whilst you talk about yeah, all of the good stuff about strategic planning and keeping it simple and short-term, yes, do that. But if you don't have your overall umbrella of your organizational culture right, and then the other second part, your employee engagement, if that's not there, also, your short-term planning means nothing.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

So, what makes them tick? What makes organization tick? Because if it's going to be very shallow, it's like money, bottom line, shareholder value.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah, yeah. If we're talking from a cultural perspective, there's a few things, and there's a few theories I've been trained in many, many. One of the more uh simpler ones talks about organizational culture in three aspects symbols, and they're the symbols that you know, uh, only the CEO has an office, everyone else, including GMs, don't have an office, those kind of symbols I mean. Systems, what are your systems like? Do they all talk to each other? Does it actually work for the organization? And then structures. Are your structures right? And are your behaviors right for that culture and what you're striving for as well? That's one of the things, yeah, that makes organizations tick from a cultural perspective.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Welcome to the Rebel Rules Podcast. I'm your host, Yuri in Singapore, and I want to learn from the rebels, rule breakers, innovators, and shit stirrers around the world. I want to find out what makes them tick. How do they do what they do? And then I want to share that with you so you can feed the rebel within.

SPEAKER_04 6:42

The Rebel Rules!

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Well, hey there, you change agents. Hope you're well. Happy 2021. I mean, it's almost, yeah, it's 2021 already. Let's make this a different year from last year, okay? I think last year had a lot of challenges, and I'm sure this year will have a lot of challenges, but let's make it a different year. And we can only do that because of people like you, people who can make a change, however big, how however small that is. And I just want to say thank you for tuning in. If you're listening to this one right now, thank you. I I appreciate that. I share some sometimes crazy, kind of silly ideas here on the Rebel Rules podcast. And that only makes sense if you actually have an audience of people listening to you. So thank you for tuning in. I don't know where you are right now. Maybe you're uh maybe you're walking outside, maybe you're preparing food, maybe you're um maybe you're just relaxing on the sofa with a cup of tea, or maybe you are teaching your cat how to do the MC Hammer can touch this dance. Whatever it is that you're doing, the fact that you're tuning in um makes my heart shine and makes it nice and warm. And I appreciate you for doing that. So this is episode 14 already. Make sure you check out all the other episodes, all the other ones. I say all the other ones, like I have many, many. I only have 13 other ones that came before. But they're interesting. I talk to people, I talk about people, I share some tools, I share some ideas about how we can break some of the conventions, how we can challenge some of the beliefs that we hold, and um and challenge the norm because that's important, that's how you create progress, that's how you make change. And in this episode, I want to talk about company culture. Look, if you've spent any time working, you know that there's certain places that make you thrive and make you flourish and make you shine, and other places do exactly the opposite. They're just very, very dark places that just beat all the creativity and all the life and all the energy out of you. They're different places, and it's not all black and white. What works for one might not work for the other. So in this episode, I talked to Prina Shao, who's got almost two decades of experience working with companies, leaders, and CEOs around just that the company culture. She specialized in organizational development, has a very rich background and a beautiful mix of experiences. I mean, she was born in Kenya, then moved to the UK, and now she's in Australia working as a consultant, as a trainer, and as a coach. We talk about culture, the way we do things around here, organizational changes, and more particularly who drives those changes. Enjoy this episode with Pri Nasha. Hey thank thanks for coming on. I just uh you know, I I I love some of the work that you're doing. I love the post. We only met actually not even that long ago. Uh, and uh I want to talk to you. Uh you know, Rebel Rules is all about people who kind of go against the gray in a bit, who break the rules, because I think we need so I'm of the belief that we need more people like that in the world. I think uh we have lots of rules and beliefs and structures in place which no longer make any sense. And I think particularly in in companies and in culture. So I want to talk to you a bit more about cultures, how rebels and rules fit into that one, how people need to deal with compliance within the culture, how compliant is a culture. But before we do that, tell us a bit more about you. You know, tell us a bit more about Preenasha. Who's Preenisha?

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yeah, yeah, a little bit more about me. So uh from a professional background, yeah, I've got uh lots of experience in human resources. So I've got the whole generalist experience, and then I started to specialise in an area called organizational development, which is more the proactive arm of HR and preventative arm of HR, which looks after many things, one of them being organizational culture. So I come from the UK, I have had the best experience in organizations, so British Telecom, Transport for London, and then when I moved over to Australia, it was Sydney Water, and then I followed the watery theme here when I moved to Perth, which is where I'm based at the moment. I work for a utilities company here, then uh the largest not-for-profit in Western Australia, and then I finished my corporate career as the manager of organizational development for an organization called Lottery West, and they are the one and only lottery which is owned by a government within the world, so a real different organization, Yuri. And um, I came to a crossroads earlier this year, so I'd been doing my business as a coach, consultant, and trainer for a long time on uh essentially helping organizations and leaders to improve their organizational culture through coaching, consulting, and training. And I was getting a lot of work and then COVID happened, and I was working part-time and doing my business, and you know I started to get more work, which was quite surprising. So I had to have a good conversation with myself and I stopped my corporate career, and I've gone all in during COVID. Um, and it's been a really, really interesting ride. So for myself and for my own business, I have had to really upskill in terms of technology. So earlier this year, I did an amazing course through Yuri and Lianne called Virtual Virtually Possible. We were, you know, in the first crew, and I got so much from you and the wonderful Lianne. And that's how, yeah, we cross paths. Yeah, right now I'm supporting a lot of organizations through change and culture change.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

How did you how did you end up working on on culture? Like what is that? Um what what drew you to that?

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Yeah, yeah. Um a bit of luck and a bit of um the right time, right place, and right person as well. So when I moved from Sydney to Perth, I had an interview with um an amazing HR director, and she was interviewing me for a generalist role, and she thought I'd actually be better placed in the OD team on the culture side of things. My background, so my first degree was in sociology, sociology and social psychology, and that's my love. I'm really fascinated by what makes you what makes people and organizations and things tick. So I'm always questioning. So there's a sociologist in me, and definitely social psychologist in me.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

So, what makes them tick? What makes organizations tick? Because if they're going to be very shallow, it's like money, bottom line, shareholder value.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Yeah, yeah. If we're talking from a cultural perspective, there's a few things, and there's a few theories that I've been trained in many, many. One of the more uh simpler ones talks about organizational culture in three aspects symbols, and they're the symbols that you know, uh only the CEO has an office, everyone else, including GMs, don't have an office, those kind of symbols I mean. Systems, what are your systems like? Do they all talk to each other? Does it actually work for the organization? And then structures. Are your structures right? And are your behaviors right for that culture and what you're striving for as well?

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Right. And what does that mean from a person within an organization? Because you're talking about a culture, which is a what is a culture, collective of beliefs?

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Organizational culture is the way we do things around here, you know, it's all of the unsaid rules of belonging, if you want to call it that. It's all of the unsaid stuff. So let's imagine if you apply for a job and the organization be seems amazing. The brand is beautiful, which is completely sexy, you've applied for it and you're there now. You've been there around three months, and yeah, you know, you're over. You see the brand and all of that, but then you see this extra layer of stuff, whether it be behaviors, uh, approachability of people, basically the way things are done and the way that you fit into an organization is the organizational culture. So it's all of that stuff which is beneath the iceberg that's you know, not very tangible initially until you get in there, until you feel it and breathe it and live it.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

And how's that changed this year? Because, well, we're all kind of here behind screens. Are people still connecting? Because I so I hear things like culture is is is big on the agenda for companies right now. Most companies, at least what the ones I'm seeing, are actually not talking about culture, they're talking much more about short-term tactics, like what do we need to do to survive? Let's just get into Q1 of 2021, let's see what happens. Yeah, but the culture is always is always a big topic. It's probably more it's it's probably uh it can be a lofty topic, but it's just such an important uh topic because your your culture is your personality. Now, that has of course has changed some of the things I'm hearing is because we're all working online, we we don't have to banter anymore, we're not really connect with the culture, it's just very functional. Like let's start a conversation and let's have a status update and stuff. What do you see? What are you seeing? How is this year shaped cultures?

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Yep. Uh okay, two two things is what I'm seeing. So the organizations that already had a good culture prior to COVID are doing a little bit better off, just from my perspective, doing a little bit better off than the organizations that didn't have a defined culture or didn't have the best culture. So the good organizations I can talk to first off, they're the organizations where you know manager employee has trust, they were open to disruption in the first place, anyway, pre-COVID. So they were quite um receptive to change. Then there's the other organizations who are very stuck in their ways, traditional, and this is the way we've always done it, those kind of organizations who are still stuck in their ways and not moving as fast as they need to be. So, Yuri, whilst you talked about all of the good stuff about strategic planning and keeping it simple and short-term, yes, do that. But if you don't have your overall umbrella of your organizational culture right, and then the other second part, your employee engagement, if that's not there, also, your short-term planning means nothing.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

I worked in companies with really good culture and I worked in companies which I thought were terrible culture. So some cultures make you make you flourish, make you grow, and other cultures just stifle you, right? Now that depends on who you are as well.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Um, but I've seen in the in the companies I've worked with which had a really good culture, it was uh sometimes a given. I don't think people thought about it that much, but it really dictated how we did things. Um, but not in a way that stifled people. It really enabled and and and empowered people, and it was such an important thing. But what happened was they started bringing in different people at one point who didn't live those values, who didn't have those behaviors. And because they were at the top, they were like, Well, rather than fitting into that culture, they went, We're gonna change that culture, which um in this case a lot of people left because they're like, This is not why I want to be here. Yeah, um, are you seeing those shifts? Because there's a lot of shifting of management, there's a lot of different people coming into an organization. How is that changing the way uh the cultures work?

SPEAKER_01 17:37

I I've really talked a lot with my coaching clients this year about this thing called a psychological contract that you have with your workplace. Is it still true? So the psychological contract is yes, you've got your paper contract, which talks about your money and all of your wonderful benefits that you're gonna get, right? Tick, you've got all of that. But then there's the bond that I make with you as an organization, and that's the psychological contract. Like, yeah, uh, I believe in your values, um, but beyond your values, I think values sometimes are a little bit difficult to grasp for some organizations. So, what I recommend is what's your purpose statement? Do you actually align yourself to your organization's purpose? Is that still your thing? Yes, okay. If that is, that's an amazing thing. In terms of the way that the organization is led, in terms of the way that you are expected to behave, is that still within your values and is that still within your psychological contract? So that's how I've related to my coaches this year, and that's really resonated quite well. So I think for individuals, if they're going through change and organizations, oh my God, you're constantly going through change, especially this year. Change fatigue is definitely a thing. I think step back and reflect for yourself if this is still the organization that you signed up for. And with all of the changes that are happening, do you still see yourself believing in these changes?

SPEAKER_00 19:03

But nobody likes change though. At the end of the day, I mean, we we can get used to it, but nobody really likes change. We like things to stay exactly if if we're comfortable, we like things to stay exactly where they are.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Indeed. And how much has that burst our bubble this year? So we need to jump on that change bandwagon. Um, but change needs to be managed right in organizations as well, which is what I've been supporting a lot of organizations with. And it comes down to you know, change management 101 there as well. I think this year, if anything, the right communication, using the right type of medium also is so, so important.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

So let's put it this on who drives these changes within an organization? So we've seen people being forced to work differently, but at the end of the day, who drives changing in their cultures?

SPEAKER_01 19:46

That is really fascinating. So I've seen two aspects. So I've seen the top-down, where you know, the executive, the corporate team decide on whatever changes are going to happen this year, and it's that top-down effect. Or I have seen the other where one organization I'm supporting have set up an innovation program, and they're really hearing from people on the ground as to what's working, what's not working, given all of the challenges that they've had thanks to COVID. And they're really reacting to those changes through their innovation program. And yes, they're still protocol, you know, there's still all of the risk management and security that the exec want, which is excellent, but they're really responding to what's happening on the ground and the people who've got a lot of knowledge, firsthand knowledge, and reacting to it quickly. And this organization has been doing pretty well, I've seen.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

So is that more grassroots then? So is that more like bottom, bottom up? Because I rarely I rarely see that here. So my experience is working in China, Japan, Korea, uh uh, India, Middle East. Of course, I've worked all over the world, but mainly like this this region, and I'm I'm really generalizing here, so don't attack me on this one. But it's still a lot of stuff here is top down. It's not it's not bottoms up. Should change be less top-down, in your opinion? As in, so here's my theory. I'll throw you my theory first. I think it, I think it should not just be top-down. Top down is one way. I think it could be more grassroots, I think it could be a bit more scattered. Why? Because this year, first of all, a lot of the structures rules don't apply anymore. So we need to think of new and different ways. It's very hard to create these changes, sorry, to respond to these changes as a couple of individuals at the top of an organization. You kind of need all hands on deck, and because we're more scattered, we're in these in these virtual pockets left and right, with a more flexible way of working. Would it not make sense to have people create small or big changes or innovate in their own kind of areas rather than waiting for top-down to mandate something?

SPEAKER_01 21:39

One word answer, absolutely, is first off. Uh, second, yes, because of the fact that these people on the ground really know what's happening, what's working and what's not working, and what needs to be enhanced. So, you know, people in their so called ivory towers, if we want to call it that, are so far removed from the reality. And yes, you know, there might be bored. Pressure or shareholder pressure, whatever you're getting. Um, yes, listen to that also, but really engaging with the workforce first to hear what's happening and how that change can be made would just go down so much better. So, top-down approach could work if they are open to feedback from grassroots first before making that change.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

We talked before about fitting into a culture. So you have a culture and individuals fit into that one. That's what's your words that you used.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

What if you don't fit into that culture? What if you what if you're the linchpin? What if you're the uh the black sheep? What if you're just what happens? Does the culture spit you out or or like what happens there?

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Yep, okay. So there's one organization in Australia who have uh terminology fit in or f of that's yep, so that's the one culture aspect. So if you don't fit in, you can move on. That's one organization. But I think for any individual, if you don't feel that you fit into the culture, ask yourself why. Ask yourself what you can control in relation to that, and then the bigger question ask yourself what you can influence in anything that you wish to change. Because I think it's really, really important to listen to the naysayers of people who don't quite fit in, because there's there's reasons for that, and what are the reasons? You need to know that. If HR people are listening, listen to your naysayers. There's so much gold in that. And if you are yourself a naysayer, what's a little subculture that you want to create? So remember, within a culture, if we're talking even, you know, society, there's societal culture, and then there's various little pockets of culture, little splinter group that you can create as well within your rules and remits and bounds of your organization. But you're, you know, when you've worked in organizations before, you've got that overarching umbrella of culture, yes, and you know, you've got many, many teams, but then you've got that amazing team there that you just want to work for because there's something there, there's something about it, and that's what that team has created. So it's not only the leader that's created that sexy special thing, it's the whole collective that they've created they've created together. Everyone owns the culture. It's not just HR, it's not the executive, it's you. You form a such a big part of the culture. And what is it that you want to contribute? Even if people are, you know, stuck working from home in lockdown, whatever, guaranteed. There's some impact you can make. So control and influence. What can you control? Sometimes not that much, but guaranteed. You can influence so much more than what you can control.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Now you own the culture, that tagline smells to me like town hall corporate speak. Okay, right? So, so I've seen companies that do it well, I've seen many companies that don't do well. They'll talk about culture and everybody claps along because there's a party line, there's like yeah, the website culture, and then what people really think. So once you get to the to the coffee machine, it might not be this, it might not be the same. Is that still corporate speak? Are we really seeing a change there? Will people own the culture more?

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Or okay, I've had many a conversation with leaders this year about the fact that there's that top-down change and my grassroots people are just not buying it. And me as a leader, how am I going to relay this? Yeah, guys, oh my gosh. So that message that these guys have to give is so important, you know, from the corporate perspective. But then the bullshit field is on as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

So we've got to be honest, and I think it's it's really important. So that middle management role this year has really, really been hit hard from top and bottom. So I think these people to hear from these people this year especially is going to be fascinating to hear. And I hope the organizations are doing it. What's worked and what hasn't worked for these middle managers, you know? Um, because they can relay whatever they need to in relation to their teams who are on the grassroots, and they they also understand whatever pressures are at the top. So there's a filtration system that you could apply, I think, definitely, in using the middle managers more so and and their experience and their voice.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Does a company culture need rebellious people? Do you need people who break the rules?

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yes. And why is that things have changed? So you're recruiting people constantly, you know, there's turnover, which is an actual good, attrition thing, and you're recruiting new people, new blood, and you need to listen to your new people as well as your old people who are the naysayers or the rebels because they're seeing something that's not quite working potentially, or that can be enhanced. I love going into a training session where I'm gonna be talking about culture. It's like, okay, throw it at me, people, and just have the open and honest conversation. And it's so fascinating to hear the truth, you know, but you have to have that trust first off, also.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Uh, an old colleague of mine invented this activity, it's awesome. It's just called the mirror. And basically, with the mirror, you you interview a whole bunch of people around, whatever. Let's say company culture. So, what do you think of the company culture? What do you like about it? What's working, what's clear, what's not. You have like five questions, you talk to whatever, 100 people, like that, they're like all over the by the way. This is a podcast. So, what I'm doing is like top down, left, right, all of the industry. And you you put those bits of data in a room, and they're just data points. So, no names, so you tell people it's anonymous, so people can be a bit more, be a bit more upfront, which by the way says a lot about your culture. If you have to do that for people to speak up, but it's a different conversation.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

But but I basically you take leadership to come in and you say, Look, we talk to a bunch of people, and um here's some of the things. And and I remember one session uh with somebody, uh it's a French company, and and a guy walked in. Oh, it wasn't French, sorry, it was a French company, a French manager walked in, and he basically said, Oh, this this is not it's not true. I'm like, but but this is what your people are saying. He goes, Well, I disagree. It you know, we have a very clear mission and vision and strategy. I'm like, Yeah, but but people people don't agree. Um, and I think that culture was one where people probably did try to speak up once and quickly got shot down by like uh that's bullshit, that's nonsense, that's just not true. Which is again, which is kind of which is kind of sad if you think about it. And you said before, like fit in or f off. A friend of mine told me a story where she worked for a big tech company, won't tell you which one. But basically, when she came in, her manager took her aside and said, let me let me be very clear and tell you how this company works. Imagine that you have a bucket of water that's filled to the filled to the brim, and you put your hand in. And the moment you put your hand in, the water will go up to the top, and then once you take your hand out, the water will go right back to where it was. That's how this company works. Don't try to make changes. This is the way we've done it for the last hundred years, and you're not gonna make any on day one. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

That that is almost the same as saying fit in, fit in, rough off. Like your change, your desires, your ideals, your ideas are just not gonna fly here. And I think those companies are dying. They're literally dying, they're not gonna survive for much longer. Some will, but a lot of them won't because it just doesn't work that way anymore. People have more choices, it's more fragmented. People can step. Look at you, you've you've stepped out. Doesn't mean you didn't like the company, but I mean you have more options than than we ever did before. Let me ask you this one then. Is culture in the hands of the wrong people? And I'll tell you where I'm coming from. I think very often the people at the top of the business may be really good on uh at the business side of things, right? So the making sure the shareholders are happy and doing the right thing. Okay the things that got them there might not be the qualities you'd need to foster a healthy culture.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

So culture has always been in the hands of the executive and HR, let's say.

SPEAKER_04 29:43

Traditionally, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Traditionally, and you know, HR teams in Australia, I don't know, across the other parts of the world have rebranded themselves as people and culture. Yeah, but I call bullshit to that as well because often HR teams do not focus on culture or don't even have that on their radar whatsoever. I think culture should be devolved to the smaller pockets, the smaller areas, and there's ways that you can do it. So it's working with people at that middle management level to ensure that they've got the support and the right skills, also. That's another massive missing factor in organizations, I feel, because often technical experts have been promoted to the role of management without any support, without any training, and then stuff happens, which is the wrong stuff. If you train those managers well, this year I've really noticed the organizations who have focused on leadership development and focusing on their culture for that middle management are thriving. And then it's relaying that kind of information to the people on the ground level as well. And you know, we talk about all of the all of the if you're gonna do the uh HR bingo buzzwords, empowerment. What does empowerment mean? Oh my gosh. So if you talk about culture as owned by the people on the ground, isn't that empowering? What is that then for the individual? It would be so fascinating to hear from people on the ground what culture is in their perspective and what they think it should be, also. How how enlightening would that be?

SPEAKER_00 31:11

And it has to be a genuine and safe conversation because I've seen I've seen the annual culture survey. You've seen this, right? Cynicism is one of the most um dangerous things to that can happen in an organization. And I've seen this with innovation, right? But the company says innovation is really important, we do new different things. But every time somebody tries something new, it gets shut down. Again, you know, finger in the bucket, the hand in the bucket, and the water will always just go back. Nothing's gonna change. What you get is a culture of cynics, and they go, Yeah, let's just fill in the survey because HR sends us this, and it's like 10 minutes of my day, but nothing changes here anyway. So, yeah, sure, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. That I think is a is a terrible way. It might be a way to get started as a bit of bit of bit of research, but it should be a lot more. Like maybe it should be defined more like how we do things around here is a conversation that maybe managers can have with their teams. And it you have a team culture and you've got an office culture, you've got a country culture.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

I think, but I've been in an organization where the the top, in this case, values and not just values, like the behaviors were very clear. Like when we say we care about our work, this is what that means. Here are like five different examples, and this is what that what it doesn't mean. Yeah, once you have that, you can then have a conversation with anybody at any level and say, what does that mean for you? Whether you're an engineer or you're a line manager or you're an ops person, it doesn't really matter. But I think, but that has to be defined first.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Yes. One thing that really, really annoys me, and this is gonna be a big oh, this is a big bugbear of mine. Uh those values, which are one-word statements, innovation is a value of yours. Like, what the does that mean? Without yeah, it's an output, exactly. Thank you. So without the behavior or without you know the extended sentence of whatever that means for the individual, it means nothing. And so many organizations, unfortunately, still do have that. So that's why I talked earlier about yeah, you might have your values if you're not brought into them, what's your purpose? And therefore, what are the behaviors that you need to be right for your um organization? And then the other thing I've really worked this year with the uh proactive managers on is what's our team charter? So it's like it's the rules of belonging again. Like how are we gonna work together as this cohesive unit? We might be you know spread out across the place, working remotely, working in the office and a mix of whatever, but what is our charter? What do we stand for? And those managers, those leaders who actually walk you through that way, they're the ones that people want to want to join. They want to go and join their team. You know who those are in your organization.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

And and I like that, and I'll build on top of that. So I've worked in a team like that, in a team that was really, really amazing. The one thing they needed to have, which was very clear, is we needed to bring it in numbers because there were people at the top who maybe maybe didn't care about culture as much as we did. So as long as we were bringing in the numbers, they would stay off our backs. And we had a team leader who was very good at putting his hand around that team. Maybe that's good, maybe that's bad. But we had these conversations amongst us. We worked in uh in in a way together, we had very clear rules of engagement amongst each other. We had a lot of love, a lot of care, a lot of communication, a lot of feedback. Feedback wasn't just like, let me tell you what I don't like about this, it was just a a culture of let's talk to each other frequently. Let's let's before things get out of hand, let's talk about them. But what that needed was somebody who was high up in the business to understand that, to recognize that, to give us fuel to make sure that we have everything we need, just do a great job. Because he also knew that culture is all great in in this case, and by the way, it shouldn't be, but in this case, culture is all great. But if the numbers are not there, people are going to start meddling in with our team. And he was very good at keeping people at bay and create this little culture amongst ourselves where we were very clear about how we work.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

And I liken having a good team to you know when you're first starting off in a team as a new manager, it's like a marriage, it's like the beginning of a marriage. Like, how are we gonna be? What's our foundation gonna be? How are we gonna talk with each other? So, what are the rules that we're gonna work with in this relationship?

SPEAKER_00 35:17

The rules of engagement, and I like that it's uh it's a relationship. Like we're all we're all humans, we all seek to have a level of uh we all want to belong somewhere, we all want to have a level of control and predictability, yes, and uh I think we shouldn't take that away. And I think a culture that uh that breeds that um can can thrive, can thrive perfectly.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

2020 has shown us we need that stability, we need some form of predictability. So if you can give it in that respect, do it. It's it's the best thing.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

How much of a rebel are you?

SPEAKER_01 35:49

How much of a rebel am I?

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Yeah, how how much are you willing to to uh you know be unpopular and go against the grain?

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Also, career-wise, I've always felt that my career doesn't define me, it's one part of me. There's so much more to me. I studied a degree in contemporary art, as you do. I was also a glassblower's assistant for six months, so I like to do different and scary things. My big different scary thing for this year was to learn comedy for five sessions, and then last week I did my first ever stand-up comedy.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Wow, yes, so I think comedians are rebels at at their core, yeah, right? Because uh any any comedian worth worth my time or worth my energy is somebody that will a joke is a show. I've always sort of like a joke is a story that starts here and then has a has a twist, right? And it's the twist, it's the connection that makes the brain go, ah, I get it. That's what we find funny. That means that you need to break rules and break conventions. Humor is often used to challenge things that are that normally you can't really talk about. That's where comedy comes in. So at some point, I want to talk to a comedian on this show because yes, they're to me like the ultimate rebels, but it's really brave because stand-up comedy is uh that's scary to a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Yeah, it was so much fun, it was amazing, amazing, amazing. So there's there's more to me than my career. So, rebel-wise, yes, I will fit into an organization, whatever, or you know, being my own boss is amazing as well. The best boss I have ever had, of course, naturally. Um, but there's more to me, so there's always extra things, and that comedy bit year has just been light relief, definitely so, but then learning a whole new skill set, as you said, Yuri, as well. So it's all about that storytelling and having people engage with you and walk with them this way, this way, and then go with your punchline, and just something unexpected, and you know, HR people, so we've been very prim and proper within our career. It's hard to let loose through comedy as well. So different personas, also fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Well, that's first of all, very, very proud of you because stand-up comedy is um is something, something in itself. And I think I I think by the way, it's a great practice for any kind of creativity, improv acting, getting out there, sharing your because a joke is if it's your joke, it's an idea, or even if you heard a joke here, you heard a joke there, you put them together. It's your spin on something, it's your it's your creation. And to put something out there that is not what everybody else does is uh is by definition scary, particularly when you get up up on stage with a couple of people who've had a couple of drinks. So great, you had a great first experience because those first experience, I believe, will either either either spin you this way or they'll do exactly the opposite. And it's the same when when hearing, hey, just so you know, in this company culture, even if you try to change stuff, nothing will change, fit in or f off. It's just a horrible way to start, and that's then the culture that you're going to create, and that can come from one person, one experience, which is uh it's pretty sad.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

But one thing I always remind people of is remember the impact that you have to the organizational culture. Guaranteed you have influence, you've got impact. Yeah, you do.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Good opportunity for next year. I think company cultures have changed already. I don't think it's gonna go back to the same old, same old. Um, I and I think a lot of people um are going to um step out because either they've been pushed out or or because um because they just jumped to a new opportunity, and I think that's awesome, and they get to create their own culture. I have the magic source culture, I don't know what it is yet, but I I guess people after a while can can see that, and you know, you've got your little company culture as well, which is something we should cherish, um and create our own sometimes. Sometimes we don't have to fit the mold.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

You said you uh you do many things, you got a very colorful background, you come from different places, you're an artist, you do stand-up comedy, um, psychology, coaching, training. You do so many things. Where can people find more about you? This is the shameless plug moment for Prina Shah.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Shameless plug. Okay. Uh website www.prinashaw.com. Uh I have a YouTube channel as well where I interview fascinating people on ways to change the workplace. So I'm all about changing the workplace. Instagram, preena.sha for my culture change business, and then Prina Shah artists for my wonderful artwork, which I haven't done for a while, but maybe over the summer season now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Prina, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. This is not a uh like a final conversation, this is just a conversation we're having our company culture because it's so important, particularly this year, uh, to keep to keep it all together for people as well. Um, so thank you for taking the time. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Thank you for the invitation. I've loved it, you're in. How good was that episode? If you liked it, be sure to share it with a couple of other people. Also in the show notes are details about my newsletter. Keep in touch. I send a newsletter out around once a month. It won't be spammy, it will be very practical. And if we're not connected on LinkedIn yet, we must be connect with me on LinkedIn. And on Instagram, I am prina.sha. I will see you somewhere else or in the next episode. Until then, goodbye.