156. Who Gets Heard at Work - And Who Doesn’t with Victoria Rennoldson

SPEAKER_01 0:03

This podcast is for people who know that the workplace can and should be better and are ready to do something about it. You will learn practical ways to change organizational cultures and human behaviour without passwords, without box ticking, without performative leadership. I am the boss of Prina Shark Consulting, working with executives, leaders and teams to create work cultures and environments that actually work for people. I am Prina Shark. I specialise in organizational culture change and human behaviour change. I am all about making work better with people who give a damn. So if you think I can help, contact me via LinkedIn. I am here to help you to find decent ways to change the workplace. Let's do this. Hello and welcome to this exciting episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with myself, Prina Shah. And I'm really excited to bring to you all the way from London Victoria Reynoldson. Victoria, hey, welcome. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:00

I'm really well, thank you, Prina. And thank you so much for inviting me onto the podcast. Oh, my absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

I've been learning about you for a while, and our lovely friend Mel has introduced us. So I'm so pleased to have you here today. Victoria, would you allow me to do an official introduction to you? Please do. Excellent. For our audience who need to know who you are, I'm gonna put all of your details in our show notes as well. So, Victoria Reynoldson, communication coach and cultural intelligence trainer, is the CEO and founder of Culture Copper. Love the name. Victoria helps future and current global leaders to elevate and amplify their communication so they can speak with clarity and confidence. We need this. We need you. Victoria also supports multicultural teams with cultural intelligence training to build connection, trust, and collaboration to grow themselves, to grow their teams and their organizations globally. I reckon you probably have quite an impact on organizational culture as well, Victoria. And Victoria is a regular speaker and the host of her own podcast, Cultural Communications Confidence, which I'm going to be on soon, Victoria. So I'm so excited. Hello and welcome to my podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Thank you so much. I'm really, really excited to join you today. So, Prina, I'm really looking forward to been looking forward to this conversation for a little while.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah. So, Victoria, I've given the official intro to you. In your words, what do you do? And more importantly, why have you gone into this? Tell me why.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

So it's it's a bit of a story, but basically, you know, what I do is I help people to speak. I help them to speak hard, particularly people who are fantastic at what they do, they're brilliant on paper, they're talented, they're ambitious, they want to develop that global career. Yeah. And yet something just holds them back. They're just not able to show up in the way that they want to. Yeah. So when it comes to individuals, it's about helping them to really speak up and show up and be visible and show all the amazing talent that they have.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

And then when it comes to teams and leaders of teams, it's really helping people to recognize that we doesn't matter if you work in one location or you're working across borders around the world, we're all working in really diverse teams. And you have to understand that the way that teams are diverse really impacts the way people show up, the way they communicate, the way they behave. And you need to understand that if you're going to be successful in bringing the team together, particularly in a world where most of the interactions are like this, virtual. So you really need to understand how to get the conversation going, get people closer together in a way when they're never meeting up in person.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

This is massive. This is huge. So, like you said, we live and work globally. Um, our workforces are hugely diverse, and it's such a beautiful and wonderful thing. You mentioned cultural and communication gaps, you know, when we were talking as a huge waste of talent in organizations when we were prepping for this. Um what are some common signs that a team is facing this issue? Um what can leaders uh do to address it? You know, in terms of that there's a gap key, which is why you're doing what you do.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah. Well, I think the kind of the reason why, which is the second part of the first question, like, well, why did I get into this and why did I see this gap? The origin is that this is my second career. I actually started life in in corporate worlds. I worked in very large international organizations based in the UK, based in London, but very regularly traveling across Europe, very regularly um interacting, communicating across multiple multifunctional teams around the world. And so for me, I had that real life experience of being my own client. So being in these situations where I was part of the teams, I was leading the projects, the teams, I was in front of the board sharing, you know, what was going on. Yeah. And I really noticed because of, I think I was quite sensitive to it because I studied languages, I'd lived abroad. That was kind of part of my pathway. Yeah. But I sort of seemed to notice the nuances of when people were not quite contributing to the conversation. What I really noticed was that you would have certain teams where people were fantastic at what they did, they were really good, and yet you didn't always hear from them in large meeting forums. And so what was happening was that, and this is kind of back to your question about what are those, how to notice when the gap's coming up. You might hear from the same voices every time, particularly in a virtual meeting environment. Yeah. There are certain voices that are very dominant, people who are very happy to unmute and say exactly what they think. And it doesn't mean the other people don't have anything to say. No, but perhaps culturally, communication-wise, they just don't feel able to process what's being said to them, to process the questions that are being asked of them, and then to immediately say what they think. And there could be lots of different drivers for that, and we'll we'll talk about some of those cultural drivers. But what we have to understand is there is no one way of running a meeting or one way of leading a team. No, in fact, that is cultural. You have to understand that there are nuances on it in this. And so to get the best from people, to get those wonderful nuggets in their minds and the insights in their minds, you need to understand how to encourage that participation and encourage that contribution in a way that works for them.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Beautiful. You really took me back, Victoria, to one of my first jobs. So I'm from the UK as well. And one of my first jobs as a 20-something-year-old graduate was at British Telecom. Amazing, amazing opportunity. And I was on the grad program, you know, rotating around the various areas of HR. And I had one manager, we had lots of meetings, and she was very, very vocal, and just her brain was, you know, 10 times the speed of mine. I really admired her. But one of the pieces of feedback she gave me was that Preena, in meetings, you're so, so quiet. Uh, whereas, you know, from a work perspective, you're always responsive and you've always got an answer. And my response to her was, you know, when I'm put on the spot there and then, I actually need time to process. And because I am a speaker of a second language, you know, like English is my second language, that's the other thing that people forget. Um, I have to take time to process and to digest, and then come back with a considered response. So, you know, often, I mean, from a workplace perspective, you know, it's about meetings, meetings, meetings, and you know, we have to get the best out of our meetings. That can also be counterproductive to decent communications and getting the best out of people, would you say, Victoria?

SPEAKER_00 8:14

I absolutely couldn't agree more. And actually, what's really interesting is obviously with the explosion of production productivity tools and ways that we can communicate, in some ways it feels like it should be easier than ever. Like just hop on a call, we have a conversation, we communicate. Yeah, but communicating isn't just saying what you want to say. Communication is a two-way thing, right? Communication is listening and it's also commun saying what you want to say. But there has to be a meeting in the middle, otherwise, it's just words. Yeah. And you know, you talked about a really good example there, your own personal example of being more reflective. It wasn't that you didn't have ideas to share, it wasn't that you didn't have um something important to say. It even probably wasn't that you weren't confident, but we sometimes get very stuck in this kind of US slash Anglo view of the world, which is to be confident, you have to be quite loud and extrovert and unmute and get into the conversation and go, go, go. Yeah. In reality, that looks different in different cultures. So, for example, if you work, I've worked a lot with people in Asia, in Japan particularly, and they're excuse me, there they have a bit of a ref more reflective style of communication. Actually, also it's very important to discuss as a group, to collaborate and come to a common view, which is um agreed with the group before expressing it. So, you know, if I'm in a group with people with um very diverse from different places, and I recognize this in people who are joining perhaps more from regions of the world like Asia, I would be thinking about flexing, thinking about not just inviting people to mute, but different ways for people to discuss their ideas that might be as simple as putting people in breakout rooms to get to some conversation where they then agree and then somebody's able to share back. It could be using creative tools. I mean, there's so many these days, um, whether it's Miro or whiteboards, whether it's word clouds, anonymous contribution on sensitive issues. But the point I'm trying to make here is that if you only have one way of doing things, you will only hear from the same people, you'll only hear from the same voices. And what happens when I work with clients is that people feel then outside the conversation. They don't feel like their opinion matters, they don't feel listened to, and they feel really detached from the organization and the team, and that's not a good place to be in.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Oh no, and that's when now we're leaning into organizational culture or teen culture, and when it starts to, you know, fall down the slippery lane of, you know, we can't recover sometimes as well. And especially when people start to feel like they're on the outer circle or you know, they're not in the in-gang, so to speak, as well. Oh, why should I bother saying anything? Because my voice won't be heard, or I, you know, I won't be um understood, or whatever else, you know, people think that really is a detrimental thing to our organizational work culture, and then people start to switch off. That that that's the that's the worst case scenario, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Yeah, and it limits people's careers. So, you know, what I see in the work that I do now, and I've been doing this work for the last nine years, and in my first career of 12 years, is that people get stuck in their career. So despite the fact they are on paper amazingly brilliant at what they do, even though they have, you know, all of those skills, experiences, again, they tick all the boxes. Yeah. But then again, there comes a point where it's almost like they're holding back. And it's like, but why aren't they progressing? And that is the saddest thing. Like people get stuck, they don't fulfill their full potential because they kind of get to that level where they're not part of that inner circle. They feel outside. And that for me is desperately, desperately sad, which is why, coming back to what I do, you know, I want to help individuals who feel like that to work through how to um move themselves forward, how to have the tools to do that. But also for teams, particularly teams where there are some very dominant voices, to really think about okay, how can we use cultural intelligence? And there are particular approaches I use in my work to really understand each other, not at a surface level, but deeper than that. What's driving the silences, what's not being said, and how do we really encourage participation, inclusion, not at a sort of voice level, but at a real deep level where people feel genuinely part of something. They belong.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

A belonging, hello, uh very important. Okay, and then we lean towards psychological safety and all of the good stuff that we need as an individual within the workplace. And I love the fact I wrote it down as well. So I'm I'm a big note taker as people are talking. So as you were talking, I wrote down individual, team, and organization, and that that's exactly where you led to. So from from I really want to get so much out of your brain today. Um from an individual, team, and organizational perspective, if you could break down at each level just a couple of tips as an individual, as a team and an organizational level, what do you recommend for that inclusivity from a cross-cultural communication perspective, please, Victoria?

SPEAKER_00 13:33

So I think, you know, if I was going to take one concept that actually can apply across all of those three different groups and or individuals, for me, the cultural intelligence approach is really important. And what that actually means, let me talk about now what that really, really means. Yeah. So there are many different ways of thinking about this. And there is um, you know, the particular way that I'm um I'm an associate trainer in and qualified in is called the cultural intelligence um approach. And what it's this is about is really understanding ourselves to start off with. And I'm sure you recognize this in your work as well. But if we can't understand how we show up and how cultural is influencing us, then we don't understand why there are gaps and differences in the way we do things. So I personally do um a cultural intelligence assessment with individuals and teams. So there are 10 behavioral preferences, and these are based on very um long-running research, which understands what are those key similarities and differences that happen across cultures. And it gives just give you some examples. We look at things like um, are you more individualist or do you prefer to be part of a group and more collectivist in your approach? Yeah, how do you relate to hierarchy and power distance? You know, that really drives how people are very um, you know, that really drives things like, for example, how people relate to um their leaders, whether they will speak up or not. So that's really very important. You've also got things like, you know, how expressive somebody is. In some cultures, it's important to show passion and your real strong feeling through how expressive you are. Yeah. But I know myself that when I'm working with people um from Japan, for example, I mentioned Japan, I have to turn down the volume on my expressiveness because it's too much, it's too overwhelming. So I have to sit on my hands and be a little bit kind of still in the way that I sit. So very subtle things like this make a big difference in the way you connect. And for me, that is the starting point. So understand yourself before you then try and understand others. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Um, so I imagine you've come across Hofstead's cultural dimensions, yes, tool and the country comparison tool. Uh, for anyone who wants to geek out, I'll put that in the show notes as well. So, what this uh country comparison tool is, is I've actually got it. I was preparing for our conversation, Victor. Yeah. Actually got it up here. So you can type in to the country comparison tool. I've typed in Australia and India, and then you get responses from Yes, you do.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

But yeah, yeah, I mean that hospitals tool is really useful. But the other thing about the approach that I'm using with cultural intelligence and why I, you know, I really like to do this, is it goes deeper than that because the next step beyond that then is understand yourself. Yeah, you can create team maps and understand others in in the team. So it you need to go deeper than the awareness, you need to apply this because having the knowledge is great. Yeah, having the insights is great, but then it's a bit like, well, so what? What are we going to actually change here? What are we actually going to do differently in our meetings, in our conversations to make this happen? So the cultural intelligence approach then takes that all that rich, rich insight and says, okay, let's start with you know, our curiosity, our CQ drive, which is CQ stands for cultural intelligence. Okay. Let's really understand why this is, you know, people are but different, why they're communicating in different ways. Wow. Let's have CQ knowledge, let's make sure we have the right insights, not stereotyping, not assuming that everybody from India is like this and everybody from Australia is like this. Yes. And and and listen, you know, let's be really clear. This research is very well established, and of course, it's a helpful starting point. Exactly. But you also have to recognize not everybody from India is the same. It's an enormous country. Um, even in a tiny country like the UK, not everybody is the same. Like, what version of the UK are we talking about? Like at London, or are we talking about regional Scotland? There's massive differences. Yeah. That's why you then need CQ strategy to really apply these principles, think about what you're going to do differently, and then CQ action. This is a bit I love. How are you going to actually change not only what you're saying, but how you're saying it, your tone of voice, your hand gestures. I talked about changing my expressiveness. Yeah. You really need to think quite carefully about the nonverbals, the verbal communication, as well as the messaging that you're landing. So it's there's a lot there, I appreciate. But it's just a very kind of quick overview. And why I feel quite passionate about this is, you know, for me, I, you know, I cannot be an expert in every culture in the world. And neither should I be. And neither does anybody who's listening to this, any leaders listening to this, think, well, how can I possibly be an expert in every culture? You don't have to be. Yeah. But you have to have the right approach and the curiosity, the knowledge, research, but then applying it is important.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Beautiful. And I love the process that you walk me through as well. So you get people to understand themselves. Uh, you work out, you know, the general uh, I wouldn't say quirks, quirks came to mind, but the general predispositions. But then you give people the voice. I guess the conversations that you must lead must just be so fascinating, so interesting. Can you can you give me an example of a pretend team, let's say, that you work with who are super diverse, super global. Um, and the kind of conversations that come out of that from this, you know, this work, this process that you've done, there are harm moments that come as well as a result of what you just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Could you share some? Absolutely. Uh yeah, for sure. I mean, I use it in many different ways. I mean, sometimes it's coaching individuals who are experiencing really challenging situations in global teams. Yeah. So they're part of, I'll give you an example, obviously, with no names, but um, you know, in a in a global headquarters, this particular uh individual was um really struggling with somebody who they were having these meetings and it always ended up with a almost feeling like there was a disconnect in the conversation. And she this person was trying, they were trying to kind of get um the other person to agree to something, the other person was very resistant. And the way they described it was like, I just feel like a sit in the meeting, and I'm almost physically bathing away there, always like pushing, pushing, pushing. And when we did the cultural intelligence assessment, and we then talked about um where that other person might be, you know, guessing obviously with their head, they hand on the assessment, the other person, but really trying to see like where those differences were coming up. What we realized was that the other person was probably highly expressive, if I use that example, very expressive, very much um trying to um persuade by being even more strong in their nonverbal communication, literally by moving the personal space barrier. Okay. And the other person was backing away. And that for them felt like they had to push even harder. So I said to the to the person I was working with, you know, the person I was my client, you know, what if what they maybe they need to see is a little bit of a turning up on the dial of your own body language to show that you're engaged, that you're receptive, that you are moving towards them rather than away from them. And that was a massive aha for them. It sounds so small, but it made a huge difference to the conversation because suddenly the what that client felt was like, I now understand what's going on in this meeting. I understand why we keep ending up not getting to an agreement. And of course, there was still a lot of work to do to get to the agreement, but the dynamic in the conversation, in the relationship, was moved by that cultural intelligence insight.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Beautiful. So again, that person got that self-awareness, the understanding of me, and how I can tailor myself to reach a better outcome. And it happened as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

What a success! It happened as well. It happened as well. But in teams, and if I give you very briefly a team example, why it's so important is what I often hear when I work with teams and they come to me is we feel a bit segregated. It's a bit like we're the French team, they're the British team, they're the American team, they're the other team, whatever team they are. And the people do travel, obviously, to meet up, particularly in someone if they're in Europe, it's easier rather than other countries. But even so, there is a sense of we're all quite segregated and it's quite hard to come together.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

And what ends up happening is you end up with almost microcultures going on within even one team. Yeah. And sometimes those microcultures are okay because it brings distinctiveness and personality and expresses what the team really feels. Yeah. But at the same time, they can be actually pulling the team apart. Yeah. And if you're trying to create that resonance and sense of unity spirit within the team, this kind of work is so powerful because it suddenly exposes where the gaps are happening and exposes how people maybe, maybe, maybe just need to dial up one or two things, but they can shift the dynamic, they can shift the conversation they're having. And that is really powerful to me. That's the work I love doing.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

That is beautiful. I imagine, you know, leaders listening into this episode especially will be thinking, ooh, you are quite the facilitator, leaders. You are quite the facilitator of bringing out the best of all of your people, right? Essentially. So you really have to understand and tap into their needs and their um backgrounds and the way that they are communicating to get the best out of them. So the role of leadership is even harder now, you know, as you know, as so many people say, and adding this to the mix as well, in really understanding your team from that perspective at an individual level would just take the team to a whole different um game, I imagine, right, Victoria?

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah, I mean, what it does, and and the results that I see within the teams is that people, the way I talk about it is you people suddenly realize that if they're getting frustrated by something that's going on in the in the meeting, yeah, it's giving them that kind of like pause button to say, what else is driving this communication? What else could the motivation for this be? And you have a language then to describe the different different ways that people approach things and the way they communicate. So it gives you that sense of, okay, they're not doing being difficult, no, or they're not deliberately doing this. And okay, look, look, I'm gonna put my hands up. Of course, there are people sometimes being difficult. Yes. But let's assume positive intent. If we assume positive intent, then maybe we're interpreting that behavior in a different way from what how it was intended. Maybe we need to just understand what that behavior means in that context or that style of communication. Like being quiet doesn't mean disengagement necessarily, but it might mean something else. And you, you as a leader, your role, if I'm talking to listeners and watchers directly, your role is to understand what is motivating the style of communication and behavior. If it's not the norm in the team, if you're seeing not you're not hearing from the all of the voices, you know, for me, my my mission is let's hear from all the voices, let's have an equal share of voice within teams and make sure everybody feels on inside the conversation, not outside.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Beautiful. Because one of the things that I really come across, you know, when I work with more of the broken teams, I work with high, very high performing teams and then teams at the other end of the scale as well, Victoria. Two things that really pop up where where there are issues: there's miscommunication and misinterpretation, both those things, and that's where we need you and your specialist skills to really get the team to understand each other from a communication perspective, right? And one of the things I really talk about at length as well is that you know, we've been placed together at work. It's not like a family where, you know, you choose your loved one, you choose your partner, you've chosen them, you know. So this is kind of artificial. So we have to learn how to get along, we have to learn how to communicate. Um, yeah. I've got so many more questions for you, but I've got a couple more, Victoria. Okay, sure. Looking ahead, I really want to pick your brain. Looking ahead, what is your vision for the future of multicultural and multilingual teams? How do you see cultural intelligence evolving in the workplace over the next decade? Because the world has changed already rapidly so, right?

unknown 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

I think things will continue to change. And I think the key thing that I would say, and I would want to see in the world, and it's part of what I want to create, is the recognition that communication tools do not equal communication. So we all have to be very intentional as leaders, as team members, to create space to connect, to have good conversations, to communicate well. And what that ultimately is about is me connecting with you human to human, actually underseeing each other and understanding each other, not trying to get the meeting done in half an hour with you know the agenda, but actually recognizing that you may need to slow down to speed up. Yeah. So you may need to have time to get to know each other. I was talking to a client the other day, and they talked about the fact that they were so busy they started in, you know, their team had expanded, they had no more time for one-to-ones with their team members. And for me, that was a real warning sign. I was like, you know, the reality is you can't go at that pace and not have the personal touch time, particularly with a new team. It's really challenging to do that. That might be a short-term fix, a band-aid, a sticky plaster to kind of get you through maybe a short-term problem. Yep. But the reality is it's not how people feel part of a team and how they're motivated to do their best work. So for me, you know, this work is really broad, but ultimately it's about being human, it's about seeing the human in everybody and really making, you know, I think part of what you do as well, you know, this is this is really important, you know, making the workplace a good place, even if we don't have a physical workplace, even if my workplace is this, my office at home. Um, but you know, it's really important that we understand each other in this way. And for me, you know, what I want is this inclusive place where we have an equal share of voice, where people feel acknowledged, seen, heard, listened to, and they feel valued as part of that team for who they are and the way they show up.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

It's so important. It is so important. I have one very important question for you, talking about important. This podcast, Miss Victoria Reynoldson, is called Ways to Change Your Workplace. If I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace, Victoria?

SPEAKER_00 28:50

I would love to create more of those moments where people have genuine conversations, where they recognize how important they are for getting to know each other, to connect, to feel valued, to be part of something. And for me, that would be like if we could kind of slow things down, we could recognize how that's going to allow us to speed up and deliver even more amazing work, more amazing opportunities and businesses. Then for me, that would be what it's about. Perfect. I love that. Thank you so much for this. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank you for your great questions. I love this conversation. So really, really enjoyed it. Thank you, Prina. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

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