158. Living in a Fishbowl: Being the CEO in a Small Town with Simone Pickering

SPEAKER_00 0:03

This podcast is for people who know that the workplace can and should be better and are ready to do something about it. You will learn practical ways to change organizational cultures and human behavior without passwords, without box sticking, without performative leadership. I am the boss of Prina Shark Consulting, working with executives, leaders, and teams to create work cultures and environments that actually work for people. I am Freena Shark. I specialize in organizational culture change and human behavior change. I am all about making work better with people who give a damn. So if you think I can help, contact me via LinkedIn. I am here to help you to find decent ways to change the workplace. Let's do this. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with myself Prinisha, and I am bringing back my friend Simone Pickering from all the way in Kalgooli and Western Australia to talk to you about managing life and managing work in a regional setting or a small town. Simone is an expert in this. Simone is a HR guru and brings so much insight and ideas and has so many experiences about how it is to not only work but to live in a small town and everything that comes with it. Simone, today I want to talk to you about when you are the CEO in a small town, and I know that you've supported many a CEO in a small town. So these people, they're the CEO, but they're also a public figure, not just the organizational leader. It's really weird. You have visibility everywhere. So sports events, at school, at community events, on social media, everyone frigging knows you. You can't hide, essentially. And then there's often managing perceptions and how small actions are magnified or misinterpreted. If you're the CEO, you have to balance your accessibility with your own boundaries and safety as well. Yeah. You often have to make decisions and hard decisions, which are not only going to impact like your workplace, but then that feeds into the little community that you're working in, families. It leeches into the outside of work life even more. And it can be really isolating as the CEO or even executive members. It can be really friggin' isolating for these people, Simone. So can I ask you from your clients' perspective and their lenses, what are some shockers for them in to stepping into CEO roles in small towns? You are only ever seen in as your role.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Oh, you are only ever seen as your role. And that can be hard to be a person just trying to exist in the world when somebody only ever wants to see your conduct through the scope of that organization. So if you would imagine our local government CEO trying to go out in the community, everybody has an opinion on the potholes in the road, whether they have a footpath in front of their house. It's inescapable for him. The same as our mayor. We have a great mayor. He actually used to be a radio broadcaster here in Calgooli was on the radio for 20 years. Everybody knows him. Cool. So there's already that approachability. Oh yes. But he can't go anywhere without somebody putting their five cents in. And so imagine what that feels like from a burnout perspective. And one of my close friends is the CEO of the Women's Healthcare Center here. That women's healthcare centre, it's not just health, they offer counseling for women that are in DV situations, sexual assaults or counseling in general, mental health counseling. So then there's that whole confidentiality aspect of she seeing these people come in to the center. And in small towns, when there's services like that are so needed, people start to feel if I go there, is everybody going to know that I've gone there to seek help? That starts to impact services as well. So conversations around confidentiality and trying to have that delineation there become super, super important. But quite often you're only ever seen as the CEO blog the CEO. Damn. Such and such. And we all have shit days.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

And we all have times where we just want to go down to the local IBA on your TJ. But how do you balance being the real you? Because it's not healthy. There have to be times where you need to be yourself. You have friends that get married and you go out partying afterwards. Yeah. Right. You have sporting events. You have to be allowed to be that person, and people have to allow them to be that person without always bringing what they've seen as an impact or a representation of the organization that they're the CEO of.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

So lessons for us who are looking up to these CEOs, when we walk out of the office, we need to leave it at the door as but we're not like that. We are creatures who label people, unfortunately. The conversations around chality are so, so important. And you are only ever seen as your role. That is so freaking hard. I've been working with a couple of CEOs in a couple of regional areas, Simone, and I'll talk about one who is just this amazing person, and he will stop in the supermarket and talk to people and be the most polite person. But I do see elements of stress and shit days happen as well, right? Yeah. We're all human. This person, the way that he manages his mental health, is when he does have annual leave, he takes chunks of annual leave and just gets the hell out of Australia. Forget the town, but out of Australia altogether as well. And now I'm understanding the CEO even more because then I think that CEO can be themselves, truly, truly. Let's be honest, if you are a CEO, you do have that burden of responsibility. You've taken that job, it's an active choice that you've made. And if you give a shit enough, you will carry it. You will carry that burden as a privilege. But then that privilege turns into burnout, is what you're talking about as well, which is a dangerous slippery slope CEOs can lead into, which you've probably seen yourself.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

And in the city, you have that level of anonymity because you might work in south of the river and live north of the river. Exactly. So go out to the shops. You're not seeing anybody that you serve in your community, or you're unlikely seeing your employees because you've got the ability to put that distance between you and like teachers. Teachers live in a town, they try to live in suburbs away from the school that they teach in. Doctors otherwise they're the teacher all weekend because they're seeing the kids everywhere and it's not healthy. Wow. But yeah, I really feel for CEOs in like particularly local government or some of those state government agencies in tiny communities where there's no avoiding it. And then if you try to avoid it, yeah, the rhetoric becomes, oh, it's just too good for us. Yeah. Doesn't want to be a part of our community.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

They're a snob. Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's a big lesson here in CEOs articulating their needs as well and not being martyrs. Let's be honest. Some of them can be martyrs, and I don't think that's a healthy thing at all. And healthy boundaries that they need to verbalize themselves as well. One CEO that I've been supporting, she works so frigging long, another regional area, another small town, super passionate about the brilliant work that she does. But she starts at 7 a.m. and doesn't finish until 8 or 9 p.m. Yep. And is that work or is that tack dod networking events? Both, I would say. Yeah. I mean it's all work. If it's networking, it's still work. You're still acting or you're still the CEO had to, isn't you?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yeah, because what I have found with my clients is the actual workload is fine. Okay. That's manageable in terms of burnout and well-being and self-care. It's all the things that they need to go to after hours to promote that organization, particularly when they're a not-for-profit. Yes. Because you need to be going to these things to build relationships with stakeholders because they might fund your next program. Yeah. So you have to be out and you have to be known. Yeah. And yeah, it's not unusual for there to be two to three nights a week where they're out until 8 p.m. and it's still work because they're still on. They're still in mode.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

This is really opening up a huge lens, I hope, for our audience, Simone, in being a bit more compassionate to CEOs who work in small towns, who work in regional areas, and just the burdens that they have to deal with as well. Because a lot of us can be quite entitled and say, well, you should have fixed this pot or you should have gone to that event or whatever. But there's this one human trying to do their best, trying to serve the community or the organization or whatever it might be. They're just like us, by the way. We forget that because they've got this big title of a CEO.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Tough one. Yeah. And if you put the not-for-profit lens on it, so nearly every regional town would have a number of CEOs of not-for-profits, we think not-for-profits, we both work with not-for-profits that have to do a lot with a very little bit of money. And the people that are attracted to not-for-profit work are very purpose-driven. Totally. Which in itself lends itself to the propensity for burnout. Oh my gosh, they're givers, totally. So it's the same as all caring industries, like nurses and health workers and teachers, childcare workers. So we have people that have this massive risk factor for burnout, trying to be anything and everything to everybody. With very little funds there that can be invested into the system that create good employee experience that really take care of well-being. So there's like a lot of factors going on that can perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

You're taking me back. I'm going to give an example and I won't name names, but I'll name the organization. So I worked, I was a general manager of people and culture at Anglicare, Western Australia. So beautiful organization that serves the most needy of our communities and societies that we live in. And we had regional locations, Simone. I'm going to talk about a regional location that was in the south. I won't name the area, but beautiful, stunning location. You go there for holiday. But when you're living there and you're working there, you're looking at it in a different lens because whether you're the CEO or an employee of this organization, which is a not-for-profit, you're serving people who are at the brink of homelessness. You are serving people who are dealing with drugs. You are serving people who are dealing with domestic violence and sexual violence, sexual assault, all of that kind of stuff. They even had this beautiful women's refuge. Women who have just seen the worst of society and kids who've seen the worst of society. So it's refugees for women and kids as well. And these people, oh my gosh, they were the most beautiful and wonderful employees. But I've seen exactly what you've just talked to. No, I have to go to this event, I have to get this funding. We have to do this, we have to do this. They give so much for the people that they're serving, right? But then I ask, how are you going to fill your tank? So again, I'm talking about boundaries and how do you step back respectfully so that you can fill your tank so you can be the best person for your people and that for that community that you're serving. And I remember I did loads in enabling healthy boundaries and looking after yourself. First of all, this is practice what you preach. They practice this to their own clients, they preach this to their own clients, but they have to practice it themselves. Look after yourself so you can be the best for the people that you're serving. Ensure that you're developing yourself always so that you can be the top of your game, because that's going to impact the people that we're serving in the community as well. And then take time out. Get the hell away from this town as well when you need to. And please go be yourself. Come back refreshed, even bigger and better. Yeah. So those are the kind of things that we worked on at length, and it was an ongoing thing. You can't just one off, yeah, come in and out. But it's creating that organizational culture of well-being from a different perspective because that's exactly what you need in a small town, especially in that in the not-for-profit industry or any industries which are serving, so local governments as well, same thing, right? They're givers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

And what happens when so the CEO is at the top of the operations of not-for-profits and local governments, and then sitting above the not-for-profits are the boards or the management committees accounts for lot not for local government. What happens when the people that sit there aren't asking what does it feel like to work here?

SPEAKER_00 12:48

And they don't often. That's the thing. If they're about profit, right? Yeah, they're guiding strategy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

But not understanding the business. Actually, like to work there. And in the context of that we now have so c psychosocial hazards embedded in our work health and safety legislation, it's new to like a lot of boards, a lot of business owners, it's not a new concept by any means. But one thing that that not-for-profit boards should be asking themselves is have you ever asked what does it feel like to work here? Amazing. And how does our conduct as a board actually impact the workplace culture? How many times have you seen that disconnect? Yeah. Oh my gosh, I'm writing this down. Okay. And boards that when there's an issue at work, if the issue is the CEO, where do employees go? They go to the chair. It's not acceptable for a chair to say, go away, this is operational. This doesn't involve me.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah, especially our region. Yeah, which is they're supposed to be at arm's length as well, aren't they? But if you don't have. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

So we've had all this new legislation that keep coming around the human elements of work. But we have a whole bunch of people that are still working in a work system and a social construct where you come to work, you do your job. And why do I need to care about your mental health? Why do I need to care about your well-being? What does it matter to me if that doesn't fit in with your life away from work? You might have elderly parents that need caring. That's for you to sort out. Don't bring that stuff to work. Because it's the reality of human beings. We have complex lives, yeah, and it impacts work. Totally so.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

And we need to be more mindful of all of that. Absolutely. I love that you said that you're only ever seen as your role and you're constantly approachable. There's a confidentiality aspect that we talk to as well, that CEOs really have to maintain, and then the perception of others and that confidentiality in relation to the CEO as well. So important. But I love the fact that you talked, and this is something I hadn't considered. Boards and counselors, please listen to this episode because you've got a lot of frigging work to do, okay? Because you have such an impact. So boards and counselors or stakeholders at that level, whoever you are, please ask yourself these two important questions that Simone has just relayed, which I'm gonna repeat. What does it feel like to work here? Question number one. Boards and counselors ask, listen and then do something about it. Don't just react. Take it in. Like understand what the hell is what happening within that organization that you are serving. And then number two, mirror, mirror on the wall. Ask your people the question: how does our impact as a board or as a counselors impact the organizational culture? Because I'm telling you, you have so much more impact than you probably even consider. Yeah, yeah. On that note, I will call it to an end. So I want to talk to you again about other topics. Thank you so much for this juicy conversation. I loved it. If you like this episode, check out the show notes and sign up to my newsletter. That will help your workplace to be less shitty. It's full of novel ideas, good food for thought. And if you like this episode, pass it on to at least two people who will benefit. That's your good feed done for the day. Also, remember to subscribe to the Ways to Change Your Workplace Podcast via your podcast provider. And I will see you in the next episode.