16. Why Time Blocking Fails Leaders with Ravindra Kondekar and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:53

And then some smaller episodes from myself as well. Are you one of these people who plans a week time blocked so that you can focus on what you need to get done for your job each week? Well, do you then get to the end of the week and realize that the time blocking didn't actually work? You're not alone. Many people feel that way, which is why today I'm talking with Ravindra Kondika from Mumbai. He's an expert on all things time management and productivity. Ravendra talked to us today about why time blocking may not be the best possible option for all of us. And he provides a four-step methodology as an alternative to time blocking so we can be really focused with our week without getting stressed out. Tuning to find out more. We're going to be talking about time blocking and why it may not be the best choice for leaders. But before we get into it, Ravindra, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do, how you came about doing it, and why you do it, please?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

So I'm a software scientist in my day job. But somehow over time, personal productivity has become a kind of vocation for me. So I myself was uh in very senior roles with uh hundreds of uh software developers reporting to me. Uh, it was pretty stressful uh in my job. So that's when I was trying out several uh methods of time management. And I knew uh they look wonderful on paper, but they are uh not practical, they do not help in a real hectic scenario. So, but then finally I hit a right method, which really is practical and foolproof and very comprehensive, and I implemented that and I keep kept enhancing it. So so GTD is that method, get getting things done.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Uh, and I extended that and I call my methodology as orderly, which is totally based on uh GTD. So so yes, I mean uh this has been going on for the last uh four or five years. I've been uh uh promoting my method, which is based on uh GTD.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

So beautiful. And I had the pleasure of talking with you last year, Ravindra, and that was on my YouTube channel. So, what I'll do is I'll put those details of our last talk in uh the show notes as well for anyone who's listening, because that conversation was so wonderful, also. Um now, allowing for deep thinking, Ravindra, is is is a massive element for leaders, and I love the fact that you actually come from a practical perspective, you are practicing what you are preaching as well. So this is all tried and tested uh information that you're sharing. And no doubt you're the guinea pig yourself, and lots of your coaching clients are already applying this. I do. Leaders often time block. Um, can you describe what time blocking is first for our audience who may not be aware of what it is, and what your thoughts are on time blocking, please, Ravendra.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Okay. So I will uh briefly talk about what is uh time blocking, but before we go there, let me just uh tell you when someone says that time blocking is a great idea, how it sounds to me, let me tell you this. You know, I live in Mumbai and it's a coastal city, and uh uh you might wonder, and then then this is the uh I think sixth populous uh city in the world. So uh people may wonder that there must be a shortage of water here, but uh actually, no. Mumbai gets ample water supply throughout the year, and this is thanks to massive infrastructure. There are seven dams which keep sending water to Mumbai 24 by seven, and it takes 40 hours for water to reach from the farthest dam to Mumbai, 40 hours. So that kind of massive infrastructure is built, and that's why this uh very populous city gets uh ample water throughout the year. Now, this is one way to solve this. Now, someone may say, someone, if someone comes to you and says that, why are you making this whole infrastructure? You have air around you, it has hydrogen, it has oxygen, just why not you just combine and get the water? Why are you building this whole thing? So, yeah, I mean, this is how it sounds when someone says that go and implement time blocking, it will work for you. This, I mean, yes, it looks great, but then it's only in the ideal and lab conditions. So expose it to the uh chaos of the work and uh hectic life, it's not gonna work. So that's the point. Yeah. So I know many people will understand whoever is following already time blocking or somebody wants to embrace. Uh, we will talk more about it, but uh, so that's what uh that's how it sounds to me when someone says that this works.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Interesting. And time blocking, I guess people have the best of intentions to block their time to actually get whatever done. But reality in the workplace and the chaos that you've been alluding to, that just gets in the way and interruptions and distractions, and the higher you go up the ladder, the more you are needed as well, I imagine, right? So more distractions, more interruptions.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Exactly. Yeah, right. Yeah, so yes, I mean, such methods have to uh work in the real world. So we will speak more about it, but let's now get to the definition. Uh, so time blocking is a personal productivity technique, yeah. Uh, and it's quite simple. You pick up uh a period, let's say a day or a week, and then divide into chunks of time, 15 minutes, half an hour, one hour, whatever. And uh uh these time chunks or time blocks basically what you use for is you have your tasks assign tasks to these time blocks, and then after that, you just adhere to it, just keep following it, and it ensures that everything gets done. So that's that's the simplest, and probably that's all is to uh to it to this method. Now, this has been quite old, obviously. It's a pretty simple concept. And uh I read that Benjamin Franklin was one of the first notable users of this method, and probably he must have used pen and paper. I'm sure he has used pen and paper, but in modern incarnation, uh people use digital calendars. So in your calendar, you basically make the blogs and uh write the task in those blogs. So that's what people do uh uh nowadays. And uh talking about who are the poster boys, I mean, offline I'm seeing uh Cal Newport, Professor Cal Newport, who is author of Deep Work, he's he seems to be the uh current poster boy of uh this method, but we'll talk more about it. Uh so yes, uh this is uh essentially the time blocking, but let's let's see uh what the proponents of time blocking method say about it. I mean, why it helps, how it helps. So, first is simple, you're planning, and you know that planning helps. So that's the first benefit. Simple. The second part people talk about is uh there is something called as Parkinson's law. I mean, work expands to the time that you have for the work. So they say that okay, we are just kind of setting a finite boundary, so you're not going to just wander, you will just stay in that time and try to uh finish that within that given time. So that seems to be another uh uh thing. The third aspect they say is uh you tend to do multitasking. Now, given this single block, single task, you will stay single, uh you'll do single tasking than multitasking. So you will have more focus. So, yeah, I mean, this is all uh this is all in good faith. Uh uh people think will work. So uh which all of this makes sense, as I said before, on paper, uh, but actually it may not. Uh, although this thing is not said very clearly, but I know this is a real problem. Uh people like this time blocking method because they always have fear of missing something important. Yes, this is very important. If I don't do it tomorrow, uh I'll be in trouble. So I think uh let me oh, let me put it in calendar for tomorrow at 11 o'clock. Yeah, this is what people yeah, so this is this is where they get into time blocking. And I had done that myself many, many years back, and it miserably fails for the reasons which we spoke and which we'll talk also more. So, yes, this problem is real. I mean all of these uh talk uh issues we talked about, Parkinson's law or having uh being able to focus, and uh we should feel confident that we are taking care of all important tasks, these are all real problems. So, yes, they should get solved, uh, but we'll see the time blocking method really doesn't solve them. So, why we will see now? So, the first issue with this is uh I'll I'll talk about three aspects here. The first aspect is uh the kind of work we are involved in. As you know, we all are involved in knowledge work, yeah. And the basic nature of knowledge work is it doesn't have boundaries. There are no very clear-cut, I mean, uh, if given a question, there is only one answer to it. It's not that. There could be multiple ways of solving it. So, what it amounts to is it's very difficult to estimate the time required to do a task. And now, when you're talking of time blocking, there is some implied sense that you are able to estimate how much time a task takes. And that's that's a big problem there because you you cannot estimate that. And now, let's say uh you do some estimation and start your work, and then you realize that you overestimated or underestimated uh this whole your time block starts falling apart. One breaks, then this whole thing is connected, so everything starts uh falling. So that's one issue. The second issue is uh the world is changing around us all the time. I mean, talk about all leadership coaches, they continuously talk about embrace the change, and everybody talks about it. And it's right. We have to be responsive to the changes in the environment. So uh that also means that uh you plan something to do in the beginning of the week that may not hold true by the end of the week, or something you start in the beginning of the day, it may not even last for tomorrow. So things keep changing around us, and we don't want to be uh rather, we want to be nimble and agile to be responsive to that. So we have to be flexible. Now, uh, and as you see in time blocking, we are trying to make some rigid plan. So so yes, that's uh one issue. Now uh I just wanted to now I wanted to take the uh case of uh uh Cal Newport. I mean, people have made him poster boy because in his deep work book uh he mentions about this method, but I'll read exact uh quote what he says, and then you'll realize although he says this, uh I I doubt he is strongly recommending that. Or even if he's recommending, we will understand uh the practical aspect of it. So let me just uh quickly go here. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

That's okay. I can say that Cal Newport is an interesting one. I know that recently he's also interviewed um an author called Jenny Blake, who has written exactly about not time blocking, but giving yourself free time. Um, so on the concept of time as well, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Okay, uh so this is what he says. So uh we just now spoke about how things change around us and we the tasks uh because of overestimation, underestimation, the whole thing keeps changing. So, this is what he says. On some days, you might rewrite your schedule half a dozen times. Come on, this is what I want to do all the time. Don't despair if this happens. Really? Okay, your goal is not to stick to a given schedule at all costs, it is instead to maintain at all times a thoughtful say in what you are doing with your time going forward, even if these decisions are reworked again and again as the day unfolds. I mean, he says you keep working on those blocks half a dozen times, that's his uh minimum. Uh so he accepts that things change and you have to keep working on these plots. So I don't see a point in just doing this rework. Now, of course, you will wonder then what is the solution, so yes, which we'll see anyway towards the end. So let me so I was talking about these two points. There is a third point, also, very important. It's us, these vollible humans. We make mistakes, we have moods, we have emotions. I mean, these also play their role when you're at work. Yeah, I was reading a question in Quora recently. I answered that question. So this guy says, I'm excellent at planning. I make a wonderful plan for the next day, and then I just wake up late, and then I don't know what to do with it. So it's a practical problem. He uh he just woke up late, and now he looks at his blocks, and now he doesn't know what to do. He already missed his four blocks, and uh now he doesn't know what to do, so he has to rewrite. So uh same thing is uh uh although this is one case and uh very practical case, but there are many other things. I mean, you may not feel very uh energetic at certain moment, but then you have picked up, you're assigned a very important task. Now that this is imposed on you, probably you will work with low efficiency because no, come on, this is the thing I don't want to change. So my point is coming back to again that to the fact that don't make such a rigid system which cannot absorb even mild shocks of changes, it just kind of makes it brittle and just fall.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah, great. I'm just thinking about this, Ravindra, in relation to when I was working in corporate, and oh my gosh, there's alarm bells ringing now. So, in terms of I used to work in HR when I was working in corporate, so yes, I'm a knowledge worker, and you're completely right. So the boundaries of time of what I did use the time block, often I didn't know how long things would take. So then I'd have to add more time on and add it to another day or whatever. Things always change. You know, working in HM, I can absolutely say one day is not the same. You don't know what surprises are going to come your way. And then we can be our own enemies as well, time-wise as well. And me thinking, yes, I've got free will over my time. Really, I don't, you know. Um, sometimes, you know, you could have a headache, let's just say, worst case scenario, or you might not be feeling well, or something else could happen in your day, which just throws you completely off course. So, yes, very relatable point as to why time blocking may not be the best for everyone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

And and it can happen the other way also. I mean, you are feeling so energetic. Maybe you just had a power nap, you just woke up, you feel so fresh, maybe had a coffee, and now you look at your time block, it says um, maybe have fun. So probably this is a wonderful time to do good work, but then it says uh have fun now. So I just go and switch on my uh Netflix. So, yes, it's a problem on both ends. Now, see this uh we said this before, but see Cal Newport uh is a different person. Uh, I'll I'm tempted to read another interesting uh fact about him. Uh, if it if this method works for him, uh there is a reason, I mean, why it works. So on his website, uh he says this. Uh this. So we will we will know, I mean, what kind of person Cal Newport is. I have a lot of respect for him. But then everybody, everyone is not the same. So, this is what he says on his website. Given my demanding roles as a computer science professor and father, I try as much as possible to dedicate the time for writing. Accordingly, I'm harder to reach than most authors. I don't have a general purpose email address. Can you believe this? Okay, I don't use any social media. I also tend to avoid many of the extracurricular activities common to this profession. I mean, how many of us can say this?

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Okay, Cal. I want to be in Cal's world one day. But yeah, it's not realistic for a lot of us, yeah. Okay, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

And I I make this joke about it that probably this method will work wonderfully well uh when machines will start ruling Earth. Yes, because machines will do this fantastic time, and actually computers work exactly this way even today. So yeah, so uh yeah. So bottom line of all these issues, what I'm talking about is given a problem, there are always uh two strategies to solve. Either it is resistance or resilience. Now, resistance strategy will work well when you have control on these things, when you can change this. I mean, you have control on the whole world, the whole geopolitics, the whole viruses. I mean, then yes, then uh go and use resistance strategy. But if that is not, all of us know that resilience makes the wonderful strategy. Accept these uh distractions, accept the realities of the world, accept the realities of our mind, and then find a way which goes through this, which will uh keep you productive and effective uh by accepting these things. I mean, make your way around these. So that kind of resilience strategy can actually give you a good solution. And that takes me to the next uh part of my uh uh talk is then then uh is there any method which uh uses resilience as the strategy to the solution? So, and that is where the which I already spoke about is uh GTD. So that is where this getting things done uh by David Allen, uh this method shines. Because it the throughout this whole GTD methodology, the resilience has been the approach. It's all accepted, distractions are accepted. You need a system where your mind fails you. It's not that you need some system where it's just kind of mind also can do, and it's just repeating it. Not required. Let mind do what it does best, and wherever mind cannot do well, let the system help you. So that's a very nice uh uh solution. So let's I'll talk uh just four uh top aspects of this method uh uh GTD, and we will see how uh nicely, smartly it incorporates uh the good features of such a resilient strategy. Now, the first point, first aspect of uh GTD that I want to talk, I want to talk to you about is uh uh maybe it will sound totally counterintuitive to people who follow type logging. What I'm gonna say is your calendar should be sparse. I mean they say fill your calendar. I'm saying keep your calendar sparse.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

It should have only those slots where uh there is uh sensitivity of date and time. If you miss it, you will never get it. Example today we are meeting. If I had missed this, would I just totally miss this meeting? There was no chance. Versus, uh, I want to read a report tomorrow at 11. Why is there any reason you have to read report at 11? No, I can read at four o'clock as well. Then don't put in calendar. So, calendar is a place for putting those uh events which are not compromisable. For example, you have a flight, so yes, you have to just get up and go. So, the problem with putting tasks which uh do not have time sensitivity into the calendar is that the notification comes, and the best thing that you will do is just snooze it. Yes, you keep snoozing them, and then the whole list keeps popping up every time, which is just ever growing. I mean, these are the things you have to snooze, take a decision, and you just what you do is snooze another meeting or another event in the calendar. So this dilutes the whole purpose of calendar. The purpose of calendar is if a notification comes, throw everything and just join whatever that is telling you. You just miss that create feature of calendar. So, yes, keep your calendar sparse only for those things which are very, very time sensitive. The second aspect is uh make a massive to-do list. Massive in the sense, I mean it will become massive because you are going to collect hundred percent of your work in it, 100%, both uh professional and personal. Every work, everything that you're responsible for goes into it. Make a massive to-do list, and I'm saying it is 100%, so it becomes massive, which is fine. And actually, if it becomes massive, yes, I think you're doing great. You have wonderful plans, you have great ideas to implement, so it's a good thing. Now, so this is the second part. The third part is now people will ask, oh, it's a massive list, it's going to be mind numbing when I look at it. I agreed. That's where we will we are going to do short listing. And the short listing happens at two levels. The first is at weekly level. So many times people uh talk about yes, you should plan things in during your weekend and all. So these are good ideas, but then you have to put them in a nice system. Those three ideas may not work on their own. So, yes, you do this weekend planning. So on a weekend you look at your whole massive to-do list. It's you have to look at only once in a week, it's fine. And then short list is small set of tasks. Uh, mind you, I'm not saying priority. Tasks which could be priority, but which makes a lot of sense for coming. Could be top priority, could be second, P2, P3, whatever, but makes sense in community. I will never advise that work on P1 only and not on P2, P3. I mean, they are in your list, they have some sense. I mean, you wanted them to do it for some reason. So there is no point in saying a strategy work only on P1s, doesn't work. So, yeah, irrespective of priority, what makes sense in the community? What's most important to you to be done in this week? So short list that now it's a smaller list. Now your week starts. Every day you look at your weekly to-do list and further make a smaller list for the day specific. I mean for the particular day. Now this list is further small. And now you could imagine how easily you are able to focus on it. I mean, we achieved that focus part, right? Now the last part left, the fourth point, which is people will still say that uh yeah, now you give us an idea about how to get a small list to work on, but still we have not attached tasks to the time slots. So, how to do that? That part is still left, and that's where I call something like a cookie cutter approach. So you have your day like a dough, flattened dough, and uh some of the parts are already taken away because of calendar. So, calendar has already taken away those parts. Now, out of that remaining dough, you know where that exists, and you have a bunch of cookie cutters of different sizes and shapes. Now you start cutting your cookies. That is what I want to do it. Keep it flexible, keep it flexible. I mean, you are deciding where you're going to put this small cookie cutter and where you'll put this big cookie cutter. And obviously, common sense says this that wherever you find a big dough, why not use a big cookie cutter and cut this big cookie first, then another one, and then the small space is left. Why not I use my small cookie cutter and get that? So essentially, you are getting the best out of your dough. You're not wasting your dough, and then you're getting a lot of cookies for yourself, and that too, because you want to make cookies of different shapes and sizes. That is the need.

unknown 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

So when I'm saying cookie of different shapes and size, I'm talking about the work that you have, the tasks that you have, which require different uh time and which require different energy level, attention level. So, yes, you have different needs, and we are totally leaving this decision to the finally D Day. So on your day, you're just going to decide, okay, it's 11 o'clock. Look at my list. How do I feel? How much time do I have? Okay, I had two hours for lunch. Oh, that's a big chunk. Uh, okay, what is in that in there my list? So read this report. Ah, fantastic. Looks like this is a great thing I can do now. I'm reading my report. So, so this is the flexibility uh that uh all along we are talking about. Uh, we covered, we have taken proper decisions at two levels so that we are very sure that we are working on the right things. There is no fear of missing those important things because it has gone through two levels of filtering and then it has landed up in my daily to-do list. So I'm so confident about it, and which is very important. Because if you are not confident about your daily to-do list, your mind is going to wander. Am I missing something? Is this the right thing I'm working on, or was there something else? So that's kind of biting uh your mind, and you're uh wasting your uh you are not able to focus on your work. So all those things get addressed, and uh, yes, I mean, with all that flexibility built in so that uh you take the decision in the moment. So now, yeah, so coming back to my first point, it might be uh this time blocking method may look easy, uh, but it is almost like saying combine your hydrogen and oxygen. You don't have you don't have that kind of uh lab environment all the time. You are living in a real world. So so yes, you need a nice infrastructure and system and all this elaborate method that I talked about as part of GTD, but then this guarantees the solution, and then it gives you that uh flexibility that I talked about.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

You made some amazing, amazing points. Um, I think from I can speak to myself, and a lot of people may relate as well, especially when you work in an organization, we are a slave to our diaries. That outlook calendar is our life often, yeah. So it's about rebuilding our relationship with that calendar and rebuilding our relationship with time management, I feel as well. This is and a convention to make Ravens and I've signed up to your emails, I've been getting them for over a year or whatever now. And I feel like organically I've been doing this myself. So um I have actually, like you said, I have kept my weekly calendar smart based on the appointments that I have. Then I have a huge to-do list, which I actually have personal as well as business, you know, and then I break it into my daily tasks. So every morning before I start my day, this is what I do from that big, big task. And you know, at the end of the week, even we get short listing, I'm doing it. I I hadn't even considered so your emails are like filtering into my brain all of your practical tips that you give, Ravendra. And then another thing you can do as well is you know, a bit of the other thing I would say to enhance or complement all of this kind of work is self-coaching. So I've got my self-coaching journal there. And at the end of the week, what I do, Ravindra, is I will look at that big to-do list, and then I'll actually look at uh what were my challenges, what were my wins, what do I want to be held accountable for next week? And then I look at that big list and I carry it over to next week. And to make it manageable for myself, because I have lots of ideas all the time, I'm using technology to help me. So my big to-do list is actually on one note where I can just dump all of my ideas. If I'm on the computer or if I'm on the go, I can then you know put it in, um, and then start to attack the week, attack the day. Um, and I feel since doing it this way, Ravindra, I I feel at ease that once it's on my to-do list, it's also out of my head. And I think for leaders and for people who have a lot of things on their plate, it's really important once it's on a to-do list, you know you're not gonna forget it, but it can be taken out of your mind from that stress perspective as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

I I feel exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. Perfect, yes. So uh yeah, I think that's the best way, and uh, this is what actually works in the real world. So, yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Beautiful. Ravindra, that is really, really interesting and a new way of looking at time and revisiting our relationship with time and our calendars as well. I think that's a big, big lesson for me here today. Ravindra, no doubt I have talked about your email. Um, I've got your details, I will put all of your details in the show notes. No doubt people will have questions or whatnot as well. Um, I have one question for you before we finish. If I was to give you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the workplace?

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Okay. Um what I have noticed is uh in organizations, uh it's uh basically the productivity aspect is a little underrated. Uh let me clarify. So maybe at team and organization level, people use formal methods and tools. I mean, that's not that bad. But when it comes to personal productivity, uh it's quite underrated. Uh so when you have a large project, people even have uh PMO offices. A team just does project management, so the whole they ensure that the whole thing is productive and all those aspects. But once the tasks are assigned to individuals, uh it is left to uh whatever ad hoc way they want to work on. So I think this is something that has to change. Uh organizations have to uh pay attention to even this aspect. I mean, once the individual has been assigned a bunch of tasks, uh is he using a formal method, formal system to execute them? It's it's quite important. And probably it you will find solution. I mean, not only will the person will become productive, uh, but it may find solutions to uh several other aspects like uh burnout or even employee motivation. Probably all of these will work wonderfully well. So I think this is what I would uh uh do with my magic van, where all organizations will pay attention to, but they will try to train and coach uh individuals on uh personal productivity using formal methodologies and uh systems.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Brilliant, and it's much needed in the workplace, absolutely. So, because at that top level, we've got the beautiful banchas, we've got the projects, we've got the project plans, we've got the PMO supporting us. However, on the ground level, when it's me who has to do whatever, I've got the challenge of everything else, you know, coming on to me as well as my project. Because now often, you know, is the case, Ravindra, that we do our jobs, and then on top of our jobs, we get assigned extra projects on top of business as usual.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Yeah, thank you so much for your time today, Ravindra. It's always a pleasure talking with you.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Thank you, Fina. Thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Until the next time, Ravindra, thank you very, very much. Thanks for tuning in. Check out the show notes and join my Ways to Change Your Workplace Facebook group. It's full of useful material. Ciao for now.