164. Breaking the Silence – Understanding Coercive Control with CEO of the Domestic Abuse Resource and Training Group (DART Group), Jolene Ellat and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I want to start this episode on coercive control and family and domestic violence with a personal message from myself, not to alert you of any trigger warnings. Some of us have first-hand experience of it ourselves. I hope that it is not awfully triggering for anybody, but the opposite, in fact, I believe for myself, I had the experience of many an aha moment when speaking with Jolene about coercive control, what it means, how it impacts us, and everything beyond that in terms of what you can do within the workplace. And as a colleague, as a leader, as a HR professional, um, some of us had know people who are going through this, you know, firsthand. And yeah, if you are going through it yourself as well, you are not alone. Please check out the show notes. There's details in there. And if you need to reach out to Jolene, please do so. Her details are in the show notes also. Okay, uh, here we go. This podcast is for people who know that the workforce can and should be better and are ready to do something about it. You'll learn practical ways to change organizational cultures and human behavior without passwords, without box ticking, without performative leadership. I am the boss of PrenaChar Consulting, working with executives, leaders, and teams to create work cultures and environments that actually work for people. I am Prina Char. I specialise in organizational culture change and human behavior change. I am all about making work better with people who give a damn. So if you think I can help, contact me via LinkedIn. I am here to help you to find decent ways to change the workplace. Let's do it. Hello and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with myself, Brina Shah. And I'm really excited to be bringing you to uh bringing you someone today who I've been wanting to bring on for ages, but life just happened and it never got around to it. My guest today is Jolene Elat. And Jolene and I worked together years and years and years and years ago, and Jolene, I don't think we had anything much to really do with each other at that time. No, we didn't at that time. And that's probably a good thing because I worked in HR and generalist HR. So when people came into my office or whatever, it's like problems are happening. So we had no problems. So that's a good thing, Jolene. Um and since we worked together, I've you know done my own thing, and Jolene started to do her own thing. And Jolene does brilliant, brilliant work in an area that we really need to learn more about within the workplace. And Jolene's a specialist in domestic and family violence. This is an area that is very close to my heart, Jolene, because lots of people in my community, in the Indian community, face this but don't know much about this. It's a thing that we don't talk about, right? In my own community. But then in the workplace, it's even more nuanced and I don't know, tabooed still. We want to know more, but we don't know how to know more. So let's bring Jolene onto the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast. Welcome. That was a long intro. Hello.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Hello. Uh, thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here. And as you said, it's been a long time in the making. So I'm really looking forward to our conversation today, getting down into the nitty-gritty and seeing how we can bring awareness um to this very insidious issue.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah. So, Jolene, today I want to talk to you about I don't know what I'm gonna call it, but I was thinking breaking the silence, understanding coercive control, but we will see how we get through the conversation and what to call it. But before we even um start the conversation, Jolene, can you tell us what you do now and why you do it? What's your thing?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

So I'm actually the CEO and founder of the Domestic Abuse Resource and Training Institute here. We're based in Western Australia. Uh, we're a registered charity, so Dart Institute, and we have national reach. So we are in every state and territory across Australia. And at times we've traveled to New Zealand and have some people from the UK join our webinars as well. Um, and the idea behind Dart Institute is to really raise awareness so everyone, regardless of where you sit in that server system response, whether you are a corporate organization, HR, whether you work with family violence, you're able to recognize and respond to family and domestic violence, be that in the workplace, or be that um as a responder to a client that you're walking alongside. Um, so that's really a bit about what I do now. Um, and I do have an extensive history in working across family violence, everything from um mandatory family law service work to men's behavior change programs, working for peak bodies and government uh across our beautiful state here in WA.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah. Jolene knows her staff, so I'm really, really pleased to have you on the show. Jolene, I'm just gonna kick off with the biggest question first off. Can you explain to me what coercive control is in the most simplest of language?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Wow, that's a really tough one because coercive control in itself is quite insidious, right? So it's very complex and nuanced.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Um, but for me, I would say it is coercive control is a pattern of behaviors exhibited by a user of violence to obtain power and control in a household, um, in and creating fear ultimately in that uh victim or victims within a household. We know that coercive control can be many things. Yeah. Previously we thought of family violence as being physical violence only, but there are many forms of abuse and tactics, and some of those forms, if I could simply put it, would be things like emotional abuse, a manipulation of the heart, psychological abuse, manipulation of the mind, undermining one's sense of self and self-worth. The very things that we can have autonomy over are eroded over time. There's financial abuse, so controlling accounts, incurring debts in your name, not allowing you access, uh, or even being on a mortgage, all sorts of different things, tech facilitated abuse, we have physical abuse as well. Then there's things like social abuse, cultural abuse, we've got systems weaponization and abuse, animal abuse, child abuse. There's so many forms of abuse that sit in this umbrella of coercion that ultimately are there to entrap and obtain that power and control over one or more people in a household over many years, um, and even rapidly succession in terms of the timeline of coercion through excessive love bombing and then entrapping that person under what seems to be caring and kind. You know, I don't want you to walk to the gym at night, it's not safe. Or do we really need to go to our friend's house? Like they always try and put me down, which ultimately then start to create isolation.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Okay, so there's a slow pulling away from me and my independence or me and my my own life, generally speaking.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yes, it it really is. And I guess um, you know, in terms of that umbrella of coercion, it's it's really those controlling behaviors, you know, the monitoring, the isolating, the manipulating, the restricting of everyday decisions, um, limiting those social connections. And that those are the things that take place before even physical harm takes place.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

My mind has just gone all over the place. So that we might have people listening to this who are thinking, shit, this is me, who may not have realized that this is them. We may have people listening who are potentially family members or friends of people going through this. And then obviously, this is called ways to change a workplace. So there's people at work who are listening to this thinking, oh, what do I do from a workplace perspective, Jolene? And one of the things I'm really talking about is that what happens inside, oh sorry, what happens outside in the world is actually brought into the workplace inside as well. Um, so you've shared some common tactics and behaviors associated with coercive control. You talked about a thing called love bombing. Um, can you just give us more in terms of it happens, but what are these things? Can you give us more in terms of those behaviors, please?

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yes, so love bombing, um, it can be very dangerous in itself. It actually sits within the stages of homicide. Don't want to scare anyone out there that's listening to this because not all perpetration of violence ends in homicide. We do see that on the news. Um, but love bombing is the rapid succession of a relationship. So, what that looks like is early declarations of love, um, disclosures from your partner very early on saying we're the perfect match. I can't believe I've met someone like you. We need to be together forever, moving in quickly.

unknown 9:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Sharing of Facebook accounts. We see that often. Oh, let's just open up a Facebook account together. Lots of gifts, so lots of overindulgences. Uh, that really happens quite quickly and in succession. Um, within those first few months of that relationship, sometimes even within weeks, okay, can be quite scary and and and should signal those early warning signs.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Um, there's another term that people talk about, gaslighting. Uh, I'm sure there's so many other terms as well. Can you can you give me more? So, what is gaslighting and then the other things that happen within such a coercive control relationship, Jolene?

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yes, gaslighting is an interesting one because it's something that isn't quite seen, you know, it's not visible, which makes it very hard to produce evidence of, right? Um, so gaslighting is the slow erosion and undermining of one's own sense of self and self-worth, one's own abilities to be able to make decisions for themselves, where they start to question or challenge their own narrative or their own take on events, and their whole view starts to become the perpetrator's worldview. So that can be quite dangerous, and it can start off very subtly. It can be something as simple as saying, Oh, I told you last night I was going out with my mates tonight. You said it was okay. And that conversation never happened. But you start to question, well, maybe I did say that, maybe we did have it, I might have just been busy. And then it's become quite overt. So we start to see lots of subtle forms of this gaslighting or undermining. Yeah. And then it it leads to, well, you have a mental health issue. You're the problem. I'm trying to protect us and help you. When in fact it's not the victim's mental health presentations, it is the perpetrators' behaviors and their presentations. So it's almost that deflection, yet it really starts to erode that victim's sense of ability to decision make. Well, maybe it is me. Maybe, maybe I am the problem, maybe it is my mental health or my anxiety causing this. So that's I guess the the easiest way I could explain it.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yeah, yeah. So you start to second guess yourself as well. Um which is the biggest, you know, pardon the French, headfog that you can imagine, because especially if you love someone, you trust them. But they said blah blah. So oh, oh, maybe it's me. Um I really uh it's fascinating that you said that um sometimes this happens in that we own um the perpetrator perpetrators' views as well. So our whole personality could potentially shift as well to their way of thinking, their way of being, their way of doing as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Yes, no, definitely. And I and that's that's a big component of gaslighting. So that's psychological abuse. Okay. Because over time, whilst the victim's sense of self and ability to make decisions erode, yeah, they do switch to having to look through the lens of the perpetrator's narrative at all times, not only for what the user of violence or the perpetrator is saying, the abuser, but also to safety plan, to manage behaviors, to understand that they can't challenge certain things because there's going to be a consequence to that challenge later on. So it is quite it's very destructive, it's quite erosive and uh debilitating as well for that victim.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Jolene, I'm listening to this as uh, you know, so someone in our audience is listening to this, thinking, okay, uh tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. But no, Jolene, you're still wrong. He loves me. This is what it is. He loves me. This is how he shows me his love. Uh can people get really confused initially, or for a long, long time as well, in such a relationship context when there's coercive control happening? Because he's not hitting me, Jolene, though.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

You are right. It's very challenging to be able to firstly recognize what's happening in in a relationship, but then secondly, to understand those nuances. And yes, there is love. I'm not saying users of violence don't actually demonstrate acts of love to their partner and vice versa. Um, there is, however, that the power and control over the victim, whether that be through physical violence, whether that be through subtle behaviors. Ultimately, I would say to someone, well, are you in fear of being your authentic self? Are you afraid to speak up or voice your opinion? Are you restricted from family and friends where you never had that restriction before? So to really look at, you know, what were the things you used to be able to do that potentially you can no longer do now? And that is sitting within the context of family violence. If you can't do certain things because you know that there's going to be a consequence, whether that be the silent treatment or an interrogation, or your partner accusing you of cheating and saying, I need to go through your phone, you know, or a violent outburst. Um then we're having that deeper conversation around well, what is actually taking place in the relationship and what is that user of violence doing. That doesn't mean that someone won't love their partner. It doesn't mean that every person experiencing violence wants to escape a relationship either. Um so we have to really be considered with, you know, the dynamics of that relationship, whether someone's fearful, whether there's risk involved, um, and their own understanding and coming to terms of whether or not that relationship is safe and healthy or not.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Oh my gosh, this is so complex. It's really not easy.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

No, it's not easy at all. It's it's very complex and nuanced, and we know presentations show up differently depending on demographic as well. So we we know that there's so many nuances that sit across coercive control, that sit across, well, I say family violence is coercive control, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Um and also in the patterns of behavior where our users use specific, I guess you could say, traits of coercion. There is a lot happening in the neuroscience behind that when there is violence, when there is withdrawal, when there is overindulgence and love bombing. Lots of things sit behind that, um, which trigger different different signals in the brain and different chemical reactions in the brain as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there is love, but it's tainted because of the pattern, that there's a pattern of that behavior of control and possession. I'm doing this thing, you know, possessive kind of behavior. And if you can't do certain things in your life and there are dire consequences to it, then there's something off. This is this isn't a typical, uh, a normal love relationship, so to speak, then let's say. You talked about the fact that it shows up differently in different cultures. I'm gonna take this down a different angle. I I come from the Indian culture, which is highly matriarchal in many, many, many forms, but super patriarchal in many other forms as well. So, yes, I'm talking about my culture, but you said it shows up differently in different cultures. Could you please explain a little bit more in this respect, please?

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Sure. I'll try and keep it yeah as simple as possible, really, because it is so complex and nuanced. We know that different cultures have um different ways of being, you know, in in households, in family dynamics. And I'm not saying those ways, sorry, I'm not saying those ways are wrong at all. Um, because we can have different roles in a relationship, but there's still equality, right? Yeah. And historically often, uh, if we want to go down the gendered lens, men's and women's roles were different, but there's been equality. Where there is a tipping of the scales and someone is fearful of another, then we can start to see that there's inequalities in a relationship and there could be patterns of coercion and control taking place. So if we look at, say, um Aboriginal Torres Strange Islander communities, we see violence show up differently. We might see similar forms of abuse taking place, things like physical abuse or emotional abuse, uh, even financial abuse can be very dumb, but it is very nuanced. So, what that means is that we really need to work with, well, the those individuals and see what that looks like. Does it look like love bombing? Does it look like something called jealousy? You know, where someone uses jealousy as a means to obtain power and control or violence within the relationship where jealousy or being jealous and demonstrating that shows love. And then we have to bring on the nuances of impacts of colonization and that disempowerment of someone's identity and sense of self and self-worth and what that means. So there's so many, I guess, intricacies that sit behind cultures and demographics and what that looks like. If we're working with um someone from a culturally and linguistically diverse background, we need to understand: well, what is cultural and spiritual abuse and what looks to be coercive and controlling in those dynamics. For example, if a relationship breaks down here in Australia, what does that mean for my family, say in Southeast Asia, or dowry that's been paid, um, or status of my family in that community, or my sisters who still live there, and whether or not they will be reprimanded for my relationship breakdown here. So there's those nuances we need to consider as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

You've just blown my brain. Absolutely so. Oh my gosh, this is really, really, really detailed. So it's not, you know, one size fits all in terms of coercive control. There's cultural nuances, there's the nuances of what kind of coercive control there is as well. Fearful of another person, fearful of your lover, your partner, your husband, your wife, whatever it might be, you know. Um, and examples of that could be that I'm not allowed to see my family. Another example could be that I've got to delete my phone history after I've made a phone call. So if you're self-regulating or self-checking, you know, in that way, he accounts for all of my spending or she accounts for all of my spending. And then they said that if I speak with blah, blah, blah, they'll take my child away. You know, that kind of behavior as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yes, there is the threats of child removal, the threats of, well, if you call police, they'll just call child protection and and the kids will stay with me. Or if you're on a spousal visa, even well, too bad, so sad, you go home and I'll keep the the children born here. Um, so yeah, we know that doesn't happen because investigations do need to take place. Yet to someone that is so isolated that doesn't have access to those supports or resources, yeah, everything is monitored. Even speaking English can be monitored and limited. Yeah. Um, they're not aware that those threats, and they are threats by the user of violence to control and maintain that power, are actually false threats.

unknown 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Because they don't have that awareness because the resources aren't available because the control is so great. Yeah, you just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Uh, there's so much happening within the Indian community at the moment. So um the Indians are one of the highest people who uh migrate to Australia. I don't know if you've read, you've probably come across all of the DV stats and everything. So uh um people coming from India bring brilliant things, you know, wonderful culture, family traditions, all sorts of brilliant stuff. But then there's this percentage who bring a lot of family and domestic violence along with it as well, Jolene. And I'm hearing uh murmurs from the wider community of this is happening. She's been kicked out of her home without anything. How do we help her? She knows no one, you know, she's brand new in this country, she she doesn't even know how to get any help. Like you don't know who's who, first off, when you're a migrant. Oh gosh. Um, what are the long term consequences of coercive control to individuals, in your opinion? Or In you know, factual opinion.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

That's a really good question. I mean, we speak to a national plan here in Australia, and many other countries do have plans to end violence against women and children, very similar but different, of course, based on the country that you are in. Yeah. And we speak to Pillar Four of our national plan, which is healing and recovery of survivors. There are many ramifications depending on the forms of abuse and tactics that are used under that umbrella of coercion. That could look like anything from, you know, women being 55 and over, having limited financial resources, limited superannuation, no property to their name, you know, in terms of that financial and economic abuse, to the psychological healing and recovery in that point, which can take many, many, many years to heal. We know that where there is psychological abuse, and that's why coercive control has been the focus here in Australia and, you know, even in the UK as well, is looking at coercive control because of its debilitating impacts on victims, not only adults, but children in their own right. And that can last many years from health issues, high cortisol levels as well, um, due to stress, yeah. Many different health problems. Uh, we have mental health presentations, which does take a long time to heal from. And even then, you know, we talk about healing, but do those impacts ever go away? You know, when when someone has post-traumatic stress symptoms from ongoing perpetration of abuse in their home, how does that go away? Yes, you get better at managing those presentations over time, but not necessarily does it ever disappear? And then we consider the impacts on children and their one longevity of life because children can become involved as secondary targets to the adult target who's often the first, um, their mental health well-being, their socialization, their schooling, uh, any self-harming behaviors that may present and future relationships and what that might look like.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is just huge, huge, huge.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

It's it's that, yeah. It does. Once you go down that rabbit hole, it's very hard to get out of because it is so expansive. One, the perpetrator's tactics that sit under that umbrella, and two, the long-term and ever-evolving impacts. Because beyond a relationship, you know, people go, well, why doesn't she just leave? And we know that leaving is not the safest option for many. Our research shows that you are more likely to be murdered in the first three months of threatening to leave or leave a violent relationship where there is coercive controlling behaviors. Um, so why doesn't she just leave is a very simple throwaway term when in fact the nuances are so great. And if you think about post-separation abuse, so for those that can escape safely, what comes next is a bombardment of years and years and years of systems abuse, family court abuse, child support abuse, centerlink abuse, child protection abuse, where perpetrators can weaponize the systems and play within those grey lines to continue to cause harm to that adult victim and the children. Yeah, control, control, control.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Um okay, I've got a question, but I've got an answer to it as well. Okay, so the question I was gonna ask you is who can it happen to? And my answer to it is it can happen to anyone. So, Jolene, recently I was watching a documentary on Scary Spice, Mel B, and uh it turned out that she was in a coercive control relationship. Like, what the fuck? Someone as uh scary, you know, someone as uh buoyant in personality and charisma and charm and strength as her fell into such a relationship, right? Um, so who can it happen to?

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Wow, good cross. And you're right, it can happen to absolutely anyone. It isn't above a certain demographic, it isn't above um culture, it isn't above socioeconomic status, it can happen to absolutely anyone because the tactics are so subtle and incremental and it can increase over time. Often survivors get to a point where they go, oh my gosh, this is unhealthy, but by then they are so entrapped by those behaviors, it is hard to escape safely. So then there is safety planning around having to leave. Um, and that's why we see that there are ministers who have come forward to say, I've been victim of uh or a survivor of family violence. There are famous people, there are lawyers, magistrates, principals, um, because the tactics actually sit uh within, I guess, wartime tactics to coerce masses, right? So if we look back to Biden's chart of coercion, there are eight specific tactics that are very nuanced that can control um masses. So two, three people, you know, can actually have control over 4,000 people. And that's because of the erosion of well, many things, but one of them is the erosion of the sense of self and self-worth. The other is to demonstrate omnipotence, that all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful. And then you look at the overindulgences. So it's almost that reward system for compliance, you know. So often you get that reward system for compliance of the perpetrators' behaviors. It also happened in war tactics as well. What did you refer to there? What kind of war tactics was it? So it's Beiderman's chart of coercive control. So that's a good one for people to look into if they're actually interested in Beiderman's chart. It does go through the stages of coercion. And for those that are in the sector or those that are want to look at it a little bit more nuanced, you can actually look into well, what does that now look like in terms of family violence? And often the tactics, I won't explain them in depth because I know we're limited in time, but often the tactics are things like isolation, monopolization of perception, humiliation and degradation, exhaustion, threats, those occasional indulgences we've spoken about, that demonstrating omnipotence that we've spoken about, and then the forcing of trivial demands. Um really good to explore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Uh the big question that people are probably listening to, there's a few questions I'm sure that people have. Why does this happen? Why do people do it?

SPEAKER_00 28:55

If we knew that, we'd have the solution, right? I know, I know. And I mean, I know we've spoken about a few um documentaries and certain areas that the government's really interested in now as well. So primary prevention is key. There isn't really one specific reason why users of violence choose to use violence and cause family harm. Um, there are things like gender drivers and social norms that perpetuate violence against women and children. And these are everything from um, you know, rigid gender roles to um initiations into what it is to be a real man and all sorts of different things. We also have, you know, the condoning of violence against women, which is a huge component. The men's control over decision making of women in public and private life.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

And those male-to-male peer relations are really important. So that is a foundational key, particularly here in Australia, around really looking at those gender drivers and social norms that do perpetuate violence in community, in the workplace, in homes, across our media, film, uh, and then we start looking at taking those deep dives into, you know, social media and the influence of social media on our younger generations and what that looks like. So there is a lot that sits behind the why. It would be lovely to go, well, this is exactly it, because then we know how to tackle it. Yeah. But ultimately, there's many, many areas, multiple strategies are needed across multiple systems to really start to tackle uh well what is family violence.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Let's talk about one system. Then this podcast is called Ways to Change Your Workplace, Jolene. So let's bring this into the workplace. Um million questions here again. If I am the victim of coercive control, how do I address it from a workplace perspective? Number one, I'm gonna throw them all at you. Number two, if I am within the workplace and someone is not quite themselves and something is just off and I'm seeing this pattern of behavior that you've just described, what do I do? And then number three, from a systemic perspective, you know, there's awareness campaigns, all sorts of stuff that happens, especially in Western Australia and across Australia globally as well. It's awareness raising, but I still think it's missing the mark. So, question number one from an individual perspective and workplace. Question number two from the workplace colleagues perspective or HR's perspective, and number three, system. Individual.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

I think it's also important to really acknowledge that family violence does no longer sit behind closed doors. No. What that means is it's everyone's problem. It is also in everyone's capacity to have a solution, right? Be able to recognize and respond appropriately. And workplaces, we spend majority of our lifetime in the workplace. Yes. Um, our our work colleagues are our our work community, our family as well. So we need to in workplaces be able to, I guess, understand what are those indicators of coercive control, how do they show up in the workplace? What does that look like in our work environment? And a lot of studies have been done around well, what is the cost of family violence to the workplace? We know what the cost of response is, but on average, a global population, um, well not global, but an Australian population, we're looking at the cost of um absenteeism alone due to family violence is around 2 billion a year. That's only absenteeism. So it does look like uh and shows up in the workplace as absenteeism, as being withdrawn or anxious or um having to over-explain your absences in the workplace, yeah. Constantly checking phones, being vigilant, uh, making, you know, excuses to leave early or arriving late, all sorts of different things. The demeanor of someone will change over time. So that's what it looks like from a workplace perspective, but also from someone who may be using violence at home, it can show up in the workplace as well. We can start seeing uh the display of manipulative or controlling behaviors towards a colleague, subtle signs of intimidation, uh, fear that um, you know, from a user, potential user of violence, that if they are pulls up on something, so being an upstander, that they retaliate through resistance, we can start to see gendered language or gendered views creep into the workplace. So these are where we can go, something's not quite right here. And that's why workplace response is so critical because we have a duty of care to keep our workers, our employees safe, but also to uphold well, what is safe, respectful work relations and what does that look like? Um, so there's many things that we can do in that sense. If a victim is experiencing violence in the workplace across Australia, we know that there's family violence leave. Um, and that's the work of Dart and what we do is just to go into those corporate spaces and teach, well, what is leave? What does family violence leave look like? What is workplace response? Um, how confidential do you keep the information? If I share with you, I need to take some time off. Oh, yeah. Family violence um incidents, or because I have to go to family court, or I have to represent myself and get a violence restraining order out or a protection order. So there's so many nuances, and and really it depends on the workplace and the level of commitment that they have to recognizing and responding to family violence in the workplace. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Jolene, the workplace is often a safe, safe space for people who are victims of you know, family and domestic violence, coercive control. So, from a workplace perspective, this is now really talking to HR people. Uh, well, two people actually, that the the victim themselves, should you come out to your workplace? It is your safe space, number one. Should you come out? When you come out, then HR, what to do?

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Two good questions. And that really depends on the culture of the workplace, which is another thing that we focus on as well as really building um safe, respectful culture in workplaces because that's the primary prevention lens, right? We know that, say, family violence and sexual harassment are an outcome of something that's not working well down at the bottom of the scale, which is where primary prevention sits. Um, so for workplaces, absolutely, you will need policies, procedures, leadership statements, processes to keep confidentiality of victim disclosures safe. Um you will need to be able to know how to safety plan within the workplace. So, what does it look like if an abuser rocks up to front of house reception and asks to speak to the victim? What does it look like if they've got access to emails or a work phone that they're tracking? Um, how is that employee kept safe walking to their vehicle at night? What happens if the user of violence and the victim work in the same workplace? How do we safety plan there? So there's a lot of things to consider from a HR perspective. Absolutely get to know your legislation, let get to know those principles, the policies, the practice, and have be up trained to be victim-centric and understand the nuances of family violence. And from a victim's perspective, it is really if they feel safe enough to do so. Yeah. Because there's a lot of risk to disclosing to somebody that they are experiencing family violence, not just from the abuser if they were to find out, but risk to career pathways and progression. And whilst we'd like to say, no, that's not a thing, we know that that still is very prevalent for victims. Well, what does it mean in terms of me getting a promotion? What does it mean in terms of my boss thinking I'm not capable of doing the work that I know I'm capable of doing? What does it mean for me to have to then prove myself because I'm having to take, you know, extra time off work to manage my abusers' behaviors?

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Oh that kills me. That's horrible. Okay, okay. If I'm a colleague, I'm not HR, but if I'm a colleague, how can I support my colleague who is going through who's a victim of all of this?

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Very good question. Lots of good questions today. Thank you. Look, I think to support a colleague is very important. One, you need to firstly understand your role and your responsibility in the workplace. Yeah. It's very nice to come from a caring considerate work colleague perspective. Yeah. Another is to also understand that it it is not your burden to bear or to wear, right? Because at times we can become very invested in our work colleagues, and we may take on additional risk. So I want everyone hearing this is there is a place for HR, there is a place to be an upstander, there is a place to be someone supportive in the workplace. Always needs to be led by the victim and the victim's safety. And also then what does it mean for your safety if you become overinvested or heavily involved? Um, their considerations we do teach as well because we teach how to respond to a disclosure, we teach how to support, but we also teach when we need to bring in specialist services. Yeah, right. That's a really big key. But in terms of being a supportive um colleague, I would say acknowledging that there's been a difference in that person's demeanor or their attendance or their presence in meetings and to say, look, I'm wanting to check in. Is everything okay? Are you safe? I've noticed a change, I'm here for you if you feel safe enough to talk to me, you know, to open that door and then to believe the person when they do disclose or when they're safe enough to disclose is to go, you know, I believe you, I hear what you are saying, how can I help you? Um, and recommending then, well, do you know that HR has this policy in in place? Do you know that you have access to paid family violence leave if you need it? You know, so really focusing on on what available supports there are. And everything is as simple as saying, you know, you do know if you don't feel safe to call police, would you do that? And they say yes is a safety plan, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Sometimes people need to hear, well, there is available support for you.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

It can be as simple as that. Yeah, yeah. That you are not alone. That's the other thing as well. Because I imagine that victims often do feel alone, but they then they put themselves in this little bubble of aloneness because I can't tell Jolene, I can't tell my boss, I can't share with the world the real truth. But people know there's something off or different about you now.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah, and that's the design of coercion, that's the design of power and control is isolation. So the isolating of a victim, even in the workplace, one of the safest places that they can be at times, yes, um, can be quite isolating because the perpetrator is aware of where they work, who their colleagues are, where they socialize, where they go for coffee, the monitoring of emails, the monitoring of phones, um, that all-seeing, all-knowing, all powerful. If I step out of line or tell someone, my abuser will know, and then I am at greater risk, all sits within the space. And on top of that, career progression, finances, supporting children sit above it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Yeah. So for anyone listening to this, uh, I guess I want to share, and Jolene definitely wants to share that you are not alone. I am gonna put all of Jolene's details and her amazing work in the show notes. Please reach out to her, please connect with her. If you've got questions, if you've got comments, if you need any help in relation to anything that we've talked about, reach out to us. There's details in the show notes. Uh, Jolene, I always ask my um guests one other last question. This podcast is called Ways to Change your Workplace. So, Ms. Jolene Elat, if I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 41:36

If I had your wonderful ink magic wand, Freina, I would um so if I had that magic wand, I would want every workplace to have compulsory scenario-based training on coercive control, not only HR professionals, but all employees. So everyone understands power control, how to respond safely, and so culture can start to have knowledge within that workplace, accountability and action.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Yeah, and Jolene, this is easily done. Every workplace has a wellness or training budget of some sort. Let's do it, people. Please let's do it. Check out the show notes, reach out to Jolene, let me know if you've got any questions. If you want us to expand this conversation, please let us know. Yeah, I'm I'm so glad I got to speak with you. Finally, finally, Jolene.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Myself as well. I can talk for days on this topic. Um, I I literally can talk for days, and I know how important and valuable the conversation is to have. So let's have it.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Let's have it, absolutely. Thank you so, so much for your expertise. Until the next time, I think you're gonna be back, I reckon. I hope so. Thank you. If you like this episode, check out the show notes and sign up for my new lecture. That will help your workplace to be less shitty. It's full of novel ideas, good food for thought. And if you like this episode, pass it on to at least two people who will benefit. Has your good deed done for the day? Also, remember to subscribe to the Ways to Change Your Workplace Podcast via your podcast provider. And I will see you in the next episode.