72. Work ON our Career, Not IN Your Career with Petra Zink and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah. This episode is a really good one. Get comfy and let's do this. Hello and welcome to this series of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Preena Shah, and I'm really pleased today to introduce you to Petra Zing. Today, Petra and I are going to be talking about a very important topic, Petra. Work on your career and not in your career. Petra is a certified personal branding and digital strategist. She's a speaker, a coach, and a consultant. Petra specializes in elements of future of work, essentially. Petra is a founder of not just one but two businesses. Petra, your businesses are called Impact and the 360 Talent Co. You do a lot of things, Petra. Can I hand over to you to introduce yourself a little bit more and tell us what you do first off, please, Petra?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Welcome. Thanks so much for having me, Prina. I'm really excited about this conversation because honestly, I think it's a topic that's becoming more and more relevant, but hardly anyone talks about it. And how I landed on this topic and the specialization and the role that I'm doing now, personal branding and digital strategy for professionals, is because I found myself in a very vulnerable spot. I always thought my first career is my only career. I started in brand and product marketing for the fast-moving consumer goods industry. And I thought this is my beginning and the end. So I didn't see the end coming from somebody else putting an end towards my career. And I also found myself after 10 years in a very toxic environment. I thought you have to be exhausted and burned out when you're progressing in your career. And I didn't realize that it was not the case. I just found myself in the wrong environment with the wrong people doing the wrong tasks. And sometimes when you progress very quickly, which was in my case the situation, you don't see the forest for the tree and you don't realize how much responsibilities are changing. And there's actually a name for it because I researched a little bit further into it. I thought this can't be the uh one and only end result. So it's called PETA principle. You are progressing in your career until you fail. You are successful until you are unsuccessful. And this simply happens because you're not aware of your strength, of your weaknesses, what are you naturally drawn to, what are you energized by, what are you drained by? And this is how I eventually got into personal branding because I just invested so much in my personal development that I then progressed so quickly in my career. And I thought every single person needs to know about it, how they can create careers and opportunities based on their point of difference. And now with the future of work concept, where we have to change not only jobs but careers more often, this is exactly what everyone needs to master. And this is where we landed with our current topic: working on your career and not in your career.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Fascinating, Peter. So from a young age, you really excelled in the corporate world. And our traditional teachings from a corporate perspective is climb the hierarchy, climb the ladder, climb the ladder, work, work, work, extra hours, extra hours, then you become a people manager, then you become a leader and a subject matter expert, blah, blah, blah, and off you go. That's a traditional, I guess, concept, you know, most people go by if we're working in the corporate hierarchy. Your story is a fascinating one. And you shared a message with me as well, which uh you said you shared a quote with me a while ago. Make your mess your message. And I think that has really helped you turn around from where you were in your corporate career to creating your own business now to help people who are in the same boat as you when you were in corporate land, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Exactly. Because as I said, I never thought I would do anything other than this one career. I had my uni degree in it, my network was built on it, the 10 years' experience in a professional environment in it. I didn't think anything beyond that. Nowadays, so many changes and disruptions happen, may it be due to technology, economic changes, maybe your boss hates you, or the other way around, you you just never know what happens, you fall sick. So we need to be able to not only go from one job to the other, but create new careers, upskill quicker. And also, now with the world being more connected, it's also more competitive. So how we tell our story, how we actually position ourselves makes all the difference. Because if you are the best, but you're the best secret, you're still a secret. So I always say if you are not visible, you can't be considered. And especially when you want to make a bigger impact, when you want to influence people, you need to show up, you need to share your thoughts, you need to create content, you need to collaborate, you need to work strategically with partners, you need to build a high net worth network. There are so many aspects to it. And I realized when I got into recruitment that I wasn't the only one who was struggling with not being able to pitch myself, to not being able to share the value in a way that's not douchey or comes across as too self-promoting. But there's so many others are struggling with this. And this is how I thought, you know what, there must be a little bit of a process that everyone can learn. And this is how I developed my process, how you can actually clarify your brand DNA or what makes your difference, how you then communicate it, and of course, how you can commercialize your strength. So make your messy message simply because I didn't see it coming, I found a way, and now I'm teaching others to do it. And so many of us are going through those challenges. They may be burned out at work, they may have been sick, they may have been fired, whatever it might be. There's always a challenge somewhere. And if we can find what it actually is that drives us, we can exploit our passion and turn it into a purpose, meaning we are actually delivering results and benefits for others.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Fascinating, Petra. So, how can one a high level work on your career and not in your career? What does that mean? Can we deconstruct that statement as well? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Well, it all starts with self-awareness. And this is what so many still misunderstand in the term of personal branding. It's not about showing how good you are, it's not about bragging about yourself, it's not about me, me, me time and content. It's about going deep and starting with what makes me different, what are my values? What I am I'm driven by? And also what are my natural strengths? Because in the end, you're never getting happy or satisfied if you are just pursuing your passion. Everyone says, just follow your passion. Yes, it's nice, but if you don't do any good for others, we are never ever happy. And this is why so many are still depressed, even though they are quote unquote successful. They've got everything, but they don't have this giving back aspect to it. They don't know how else they can benefit others. And this is where we get our feel-good feeling from it. So it all starts with you. And I always do a couple of tests brand archetype tests and then personality tests. So it combines your brand DNA, what makes you different, what you can't change, but then also looking at the skills. And so many tests like miles bricks and so forth, they are good in what they are doing, but they don't necessarily go a little bit deeper and uncovering your subconscious mind. And this is exactly what a brand archetype test actually does for us. And this is the combination. And often this is enough for people to realize now I know why I respond this way or why I'm drawn to this person or why I love this task and hate others. And in a second, you've got this clarity, you have got the confidence. And as much as we buy into competence, we also, if not more so, buy into people's confidence.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yes, completely. And you're completely right. So once you know more about yourself, you know what your strengths are, you know what your triggers are as well, and you can be far more emotionally intelligent in response to the workplace. Very fascinating points that you make, Petra. And often many people don't go through their career looking at themselves in this perspective, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Exactly, because it is also not taught, it's not part of education. And you mentioned before, we don't just have one linear career path anymore, which we were trained in. We've got now sidesteps and cross steps and completely outsteps and then insteps again. Everything has changed. It's more like a jungle and not a ladder anymore. And people are so busy doing the doing and doing the work that you forget to build the bridge as to what's next. And this is also what I found myself in the situation. I was the doer. I was the first in, last out, took every project and responsibility on because I thought this is the way how I show that I'm ready for the promotion for the next step. Well, I didn't realize that they saw me as the doer and thought I get the joy out of the doing and not the delegating. Now, when you're progressing into leadership roles, you're changing skill sets. Again, nobody's telling you that or teaching you that. You have to figure it out. And as you said, it all starts with this emotional intelligence. What are your strengths and your weaknesses? And then build a team around you that can help you complement your strengths and your weaknesses. Because as a team, we always go much further.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Completely. And you make a really good point there as well, Petra. I've worked with a lot of people who have gone from subject matter or technical expert on the ground, and now because you are so brilliant on the ground, here you go. Here's a promotion for you. Without any training or without any extra support of how to manage people, how to manage yourself, how to delegate, and how to manage your brand as well. And one of the things I have come across, especially, is as a leader, if you lose the trust or respect of your team, it's so hard to regain. So you want to start off on the right foot from the beginning that way, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Exactly. And I definitely think that personal branding is a leadership requirement and not an afterthought or a nice to have. Because what you just mentioned, it all starts with yourself. And then you can also show up very differently to others. And I always say personal branding is personal development on steroids. Once you've uncovered it and experienced what this clarity actually does to you, you cannot go back, you cannot unsee it.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

100%. Last week or two weeks ago, actually, I delivered a training session to a team who there was a new manager in the team, and the rest of the team had been working together for a long time. And one of the things I actually uh did was for them to get to know each other as people first off. So we had some activities in that respect, but then I stepped back and I got them to do a bit of a psychometric test on their work behavior styles. And oh my gosh, then we had conversations around that, and conversations in relation to the way I like to be communicated to, the way I communicate, the kind of work that I like, the kind of environment that I like working in. When I am stressed, I am. When I'm stressed, I need to be whatever, left alone or cut out or whatever it might be. But those are the kind of conversations often that teams don't have or leaders don't understand of their team members to get the best out of them, right? That's so missing. Are there any tips you can give for people who are going from that technical expert, subject matter expert position to a role of people manager or leader now? That transition, how can they help themselves to get it right from the get-go?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Well, I would say it again starts with a self-awareness piece. Is it the right step for you? There are so many types of leaders. I thought I want to manage people, so I managed large teams in the end. And to be honest, I didn't enjoy it. And I don't want to go back to that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

It's really difficult. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

And you don't realize or understand how much conflict resolution and management is there. Also, attention to detail because you can't miss something. Also, admin, all of those things I'm not good at. So I thought I need to get out of this also after I've experienced it a few years. And I would consider myself more sort of a thought leader or a change leader. I want to impact with my thoughts, with my content, and not so much people directly within my circle. So there is no right or wrong. We need to get rid of the idea that the only way you can be successful is when you lead a team and then a bigger team and then a department and then organization. Because not everyone should be a leader. And this is probably the biggest realization that we all need to, you know, start with ourselves and be very honest with ourselves. Is it the right path or is it a path that others tell me to do and that others have gone prior to me?

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah, that questioning of yourself is really, really important. I remember a few years ago when I delivered an aspiring leaders program. I walked into the room and one of my first questions was, What do you want out of your career? Pretty much 80% of the room said, I want to be a leader, I want to be a people manager. And I just had to stop them there and say, So, do you know what that involves? People management is so, so difficult. It's full of surprises as well. It's not an easy thing. And yeah, really questioning your career as well, in terms of is this the way I want to go? What are my other options? People don't consider other options as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Exactly. And it could even be a project leader that you still have responsibility over a result, but it doesn't necessarily need to be the people aspect of it. And even simply managing the days off and sick leave and the promotions, all of the admin that comes with it. I honestly get bored with it. And when you're bored, you can also get burnt out, and people also don't realize that it's not just about having too much on your plate and too hard task and too tight deadlines, it's also being bored, being not challenged, being not in your genius zone. So again, it comes down to emotional intelligence about your style.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

That happens to a lot of people, and I'll be honest in saying that I have come across it through my you know coaching support that I do and consulting work as well, Petra. So people often sit on the career fence. That can be really damaging to not only your own reputation, but it can be really damaging to the team, Carnette. Could you expand a little bit more about sitting on that career fence and yes, I've got that leadership role, but I really do hate it, I don't want it, but I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Yes, absolutely. Well, we've seen, especially when COVID hit, everything has changed. And the trends that we've actually been seeing for the last 10 years, it's nothing new, have just been accelerated, and now all of a sudden they're here. So what it shows us is that the world doesn't slow down. With more technology, everything changes, not more significantly, but also quicker. There's even a research that is conducted every two years, and I think it was in the 90s, even, an average life cycle of an organization was 75 years, which means you go to university, you climb the ladder, you retire, you probably die, and you still haven't seen a change in an organization. And now, even with high investment and high-risk industries like mining, where there's so much investment to just have this infrastructure set up, even mining industries and those kinds of industries are going through a change every seven to ten years, which means that if you're not evolving, if you're not changing, if you're not upskilling, if you're not maybe even pivoting, you're already behind. Because so many skill sets are not required anymore. We're transitioning to a new era and just putting the blinkers on and saying it doesn't happen to me, I'm in demand, it already sets you backwards. So you cannot go wrong in the second you're moving. And if you are on the fence, the best way to see what's right or wrong is by literally taking one step after the other because you can only pivot if you're moving. When you stand still, you're going to eventually be overruled by everything and everyone.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

100%. Uh you you run uh the future of work campus. And is that can you expand what that is? And is that uh something for a leader who's in this position of oh, I'm a leader now, I'm not 100% feeling it or I'm loving it, but I need to continually work on myself. Is that something yes, yes and no?

SPEAKER_00 16:42

I uh launched the future of work campus last year, after and during COVID-19, because so many have realized that their job is not what they want to do, they have been made redundant, they have been stood down. So we started the HL career course basically, how can you pivot into a new industry or profession without necessarily knowing what it is yet? And after those students have gone through the course, they ask me, so what's next? And I said, nothing is next. I haven't even played the HL career course, so you go. But I thought ongoing career development is something that it doesn't stop, it's ongoing for a reason. And especially those mid-level professionals who are a bit in between, they see what I started is not quite what I want to do, but are also not sure what's next. They are the perfect fit for the campus. For leaders, we're working mainly one-on-one or in a team setting, just because new levels, new devils, we have other conversations.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Cool. I'm gonna put your details in the show notes. So if people want to reach out to you, they definitely will. I have one final question for you, Petra. If I gave you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 17:54

To be honest, and this is not because I'm doing it, but because I've experienced it, is to introduce personal branding to everyone from a young age, and also that companies are having that as a must-have program in the organization. Because what it also helps us is the self-awareness, which means that you can take control over your career, you can see based on what's happening in the economy and the industry and the company, how could I shift my skill set? How could I upskill? How can I position myself also within the company? It's not always being outward facing when you build your personal brain, it could also be inward facing. And how can I position myself that I get to the next step, that I can go into this different department? And I was just running actually a training for one of the largest IT companies in January. They called it the emerging leaders, but they were already heads off. So I would classify them more as senior leaders, but different story. And one guy had exactly the same issue that I had nine years ago. He was the doer, he was already the senior project manager, and he wanted to become the project director. And he's been in this role for three years, and he said, I physically can't get any more projects under my plate. And we did a 360, so you know, self-assessment, and he thought he was a strong leader and communicator and all of that. But the executive board, what they associate with him, he was the doer. He was not able to delegate and let go. So simply having this awareness, what do I perceive myself as, what do others see myself to be, makes already all the difference. And you mentioned the exercise before. When I can't communicate how I need to be managed, how I get motivated, how I perform my best work, I can't expect anyone else to manage me the right way. So I would say having the self-awareness and being able to position yourself in a way where you can get the best out of yourself helps the organization big times. And you also don't need to leave the company because you think, quote unquote, there is no further opportunity. Just because it doesn't go upwards doesn't mean you can go sideways or can create your own commercial opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Absolutely. So I think that's a real missing market, isn't it? Organizations don't tap into their own talent and nurture their talent from that perspective. There's the traditional leadership development programs and whatever else. But from my corporate career in HR, never have we looked at individuals and how they brand themselves. So they can be the ambassador for the organization, especially if they're high potential people that you want to retain. There's a different thing that you can do to support them and their development, right? Beautiful, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

And you mentioned a really good point. The retention is something that organizations consider now more and more so, simply because the talent pool, especially in those high demand roles, gets tighter and tighter and more competitive. And our talents in Australia, they can now work for a US-based or European-based company and they can get another 10, 20, whatever grand more. Now, if I've got the choice and I've got five different offers, the loyalty also goes down from those talents. And they're not looking to stay with a company forever and two days. They only take a role to progress to the next role. Now, when I am invested in my talents, I give them the opportunity to develop within the organization, because that also means that they are very alert what's going on in the market and take initiative. We don't need any more task pushers and paper pushers in the workforce. We need to have people who think on their feet, who are creative, who can take initiative without anyone telling them that they have to do it. And again, it all starts with this self-awareness piece because when you are confident, you are putting your hand up and actually say, you know what, I really good with attention to detail. I don't have any of that in my current role. But I see in departments so and so, this is everything that they're doing. What do I need to do to shift? What courses do I need to do? Which work experience do you need to get? So it's all about helping also our managers and leaders to get the best out of us.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Yeah, yeah. And okay, another thing. I could talk to you forever about this. Another thing on Flip side, organizations need to offer this kind of support to their high potentials, especially. But then people need to speak out as well. You need to ask for this, right? If you are really lacking it and there's something, there's a question mark that you're feeling and something's amiss, ask for it, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Exactly. If you can't ask for it, you will never get it. So many still sit back and say, Well, I'm just waiting for my manager, my HR leader to tell me what's next. We don't know what's next. And if you don't know what you're actually good at, how could we expect those people to create a pathway for us that we probably even fail in simply because it's a different skill set? And there are so many jobs and careers and industries that haven't even been created yet. Like last year, how many new apps have come out and brands have been launched and products and services that we couldn't even imagine 12 months ago? Now think for the next 12, 24, 36 months. There's just so many opportunities. And again, this is also why I'm such a big fan of building a portfolio career to try it and test the waters. You asked me a question before that I not quite answered thinking about it. What can we do when we are a bit on the fence? Proximity principle. Put yourself out there. And it doesn't mean that we have to quit our job and go all in into what we think is the next step. It's about experiencing it. Some of my clients they want to become a public speaker. I'm all in for it. But I also want them to experience first what goes in. I can't tell you how many hours I've practiced in front of a mirror, recorded, deleted, changed, written, deleted. There is so much that goes behind the scenes. And if you can't take that sandwich that comes with everything, then it's probably not the right way. But the only way to figure it out is to experience it, put ourselves out there, pitch ourselves to local meetup events or industry events and say, you know what, I would love to talk about topic X, Y, Z. Is there an opportunity for me to speak for free? And if we think, oh my God, it was the best thing that I could have done, I want to do more of, I do it another three, four, five times, and then make the decision, what do I need to do to make this my full-time role? But just saying, you know what, this is my next step, and I'm going all in, it's actually a little bit risky.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

It really is. And then you make another good point there as well. So we can safely do this as well. If we think we want to go here, you can safely try it within your organization or you know, giving free talks or whatever it might be if it's in relation to public speaking. And then you can make that transition and decision, but kind of like a try before you buy concept, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Exactly. And this is, you know, also a bit of a personal branding, an internal personal branding heck. Simply organize and lunch and learn. Ah, come on, yes. It's not that hard. Exactly. It could be for your team, it could be for a department, it could be for the entire organization. You can be the speaker or you can organize people to come to build also your network because that's another strategic working on your career activity. Build your external network also outside the industry because we can learn from every single person. And these are also the people who can open doors and introduce us to new opportunities. So it's a win-win situation. But again, it starts with putting our hand up for activities and projects that we are interested in and not wait for others to tell us and also get rid of the thinking, oh, but it's not in my job description, or I'm not hired for this. Who cares? A one hour, a half an hour lunch and learn every month. I mean, honestly, everyone can manage to do this.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Completely so, completely so. Petra, I could talk to you forever, and I think this is this is going to be a continued conversation. I would love to. Yeah. For now, I would like to say thank you so so much for your time. My question, thanks so much for having me, Praina.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Love your question.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

I've loved talking with you. To be continued is all I will say for this. Anyway. Thank you so much. Until the next time, Petra. Thank you. If you want to meet great thinkers who stand against crappy workplace cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams, then you need to join the Ways to Change Your Workplace Facebook group, which is linked in today's show notes. I will see you in the next episode. Bye for now.