75. Addressing Toxic Masculinity at Work

SPEAKER_00 0:33

I'm here to help you find ways to change your WordPress. Why? Because we spend more time in our waiting days at work than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. During this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Hello and welcome to this very important episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah, and I'm very, very pleased to be doing a multiple interview today with Mike Dyson, who's based in Perth, and James, who's based in where are you at the moment? Bournemouth, did you say?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

I'm in Bournemouth in the UK. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

In the UK. So James Coomer, welcome. Now I have a little bit of an introduction to you both, if I may. Um, give me a second. So James, who is speaking to us today, is a director of an advanced first aid and trauma training company called Code Red Training, based in the UK. James is also breaking away from the UK Fire and Rescue Service following 20 years of service as a fire officer, and is now using his skills and lived experience that he has gained in a new venture as a leadership coach and a consultant. James's mission is to create safe working environments that promote inclusivity and a positive culture by way of effective and supportive leadership. Thank you, James. Welcome. And Mike. Thank you. Mike, Mike Dyson, since 2015, has led tens of thousands of conversations with boys and men all over Australia on manhood, mental health, mateship, risk, violence, and respect for women. These conversations give him a rare insight into what's truly going on behind the mask of masculinity. And Mike also has a unique perspective on how our culture of masculinity shapes our men and boys' well-being and behavior. Mike is a lead facilitator for a company called Good Blokes Co. Camps and Retreats, and he does so much more. Mike and James, I'm gonna put all of your details in the show notes. But before we kick off, welcome. And Mike, would you like to introduce yourself and explain why you do what you do?

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Thanks, Prenya. Thanks for having me. I love having these kind of conversations. So super keen to be uh a part of it. Why I do what I do is a um a pretty big question, really. Um it's a it's a cause that is that is super dear to my to my heart. I spent uh um many, many years, uh 15 years as a complementary medicine practitioner helping people of all genders and all ages and all backgrounds to um support themselves towards uh holistic uh well-being. Uh, and I noticed over the course of many years that I was just seeing a lot more women than I was men. And I got really frustrated with men's lack of ability to reach out for help and to be proactive about their well-being. And um, there came a point about 10 years into my career in in Chinese medicine and acupuncture that I found myself on an emergency department hospital bed uh thinking that I was having a heart attack. I was I was thinking that this is the end of me. This is this is where uh my life ends. And the doctor leaned over me and she said, Nothing wrong with your heart, Mr. Dyson, you're having a panic attack. And I just remember being incredibly shocked that I was, you know, I was supposed to be an expert in well-being and I found myself in this kind of position. And then this whole, oh, I'm wasting a valuable hospital bed with my silly mental health concerns, until I realized maybe, maybe I had become one of these men that I was so frustrated with that that wasn't reaching out for uh for help. So I I started sitting with men's groups and found that incredibly powerful experience and founded Good Blokes Co in 2015 to try and inspire more men to lead the conversation with their mates in their in their families, in their workplaces around what it is to be a good man, what it is to look after ourselves, and what it is to be there for the for the women and children in our lives as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Amazing. James, why do you do what you do? You've recently quit your corporate job.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

I have indeed, after 20 years working in the UK Fire and Rescue Service, and it was a phenomenal job that I did as well. And I absolutely loved it. Absolutely loved what I did. Um I I do this after after the 20 years of working there in a very male-dominated environment, so perhaps a little bit different to Mike, where he had a lot of females with what Mike Mike did. Yeah, I did notice that an element of toxic masculinity within the UK Fire and Rescue Service. And that's not to say that it's riddled with it, but there were certainly some elements of it. And uh my inspiration kind of comes from some experiences of what I've seen, what I've witnessed, uh, and certainly from my partner who works in the um the UK emergency services as well. And I've also got an eight-year-old daughter, and I know 10 years from now, she is going to be going out into the big wide world working in either corporate, public sector, something like that. And I really want to see if there's something that I can do now that's just going to help a little bit when she goes into the workplace 10 years from now. So if there's a small thing that I can do to help change and make the work environment that little bit better, it'll be worth it.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Amazing. Beautiful. And in terms of this topic, um, I have a personal reason for doing it as well. So for our audience who haven't listened to episode 50, My Why and Why I Do What I Do, listen to that. Uh, in summary, my dad was an alcoholic, and alcohol is what actually killed him. I found his body and it was quite a traumatic event, you know, stuff that I've worked on throughout. But my dad had this really conflicting relationship with work. Um, you know, he was a migrant from Kenya to the UK, and then coming in as a migrant, what the hell do you know? He went from management to um really kind of low work, which you know it really impacted his identity as a man. And he took that on very badly, unfortunately. So there's that element. So this is a really uh important topic which is close to my heart. And then the other thing also, I've got years of experience of uh working internally in corporate HR before I set up this business. And when I was working in corporate HR, I worked in very male-dominated environments, and there was toxic masculinity within a couple of those environments, which I did try to address, but um I could have done better. So I need to learn more. And I really wanted to speak to wonderful specialists today. So I've got a million questions for you. Um, and the topic that I want to talk to you about is essentially addressing toxic masculinity within the workplace. So our audience are people who work in the corporate land. So I really want to give something back, like yourselves as well. We want to make the world a better place. That's what we're all here for. So that's what I want to talk about. So to kick off, uh, James, if I could ask you, from your perspective, what is toxic masculinity and is it different for different cultures?

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Oh, good question. So I mean, for me, and this is using my my kind of experience of what I've got from the UK Emergency Services, toxic masculinity is just it's it's it's it's men that predominantly kind of can be particularly overbearing, perhaps in the workplace. They might be uh rather dominant in the way that they kind of portray themselves, um perhaps don't necessarily align themselves with female values and things in the workplace, too. Don't like to show emotion too much, you know, hold back their emotion, don't want to be particularly, you know, it's that whole kind of big brave man of, you know, I'm absolutely fine, there's nothing wrong with me, and just don't wear their emotions on the sleeve, you know, it's something like that, and it can have a detrimental effect on other people around them, predominantly women, but it can also be other men in the workplace too. So that's my understanding of uh or what I believe, you know, toxic masculinity to be about, really. Um, and with regard to cultures and how it can affect other cultures, uh I worked in quite a multicultural area within the southwest of the UK, and there's definitely different elements that you see from different cultures. So, you know, it's you might see one thing particularly from I don't know, sort of like a British kind of a group, and then in a certain area in Bristol that I worked in, which was you know, maybe Somali, I would find that actually it was it was quite difficult to speak to females, and they would very much sidetrack me to the male that was in their life and say, You can't speak to me, you must speak to this man. Maybe that's another example of sort of like some toxic toxic masculinity within a relationship there. But that's that's potentially a cultural thing, um, and and something something else that maybe Mike might even be able to share some experience on there.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Mike.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

Yeah, um, so I I would agree with all that James has said to start off with. And I and I like the way that you've brought culture into this conversation as well, because I think it does show up differently in in different cultures. You know, certainly in different countries, our you know, expectations of how we're supposed to be as men in Australia, there'll be a lot of similarities in the UK and there'll be differences as well. And there'll be differences with how men are supposed to be in India and Singapore and China and Argentina and different places all over the world. So for me, the big thing is around you know, expectations on how men are supposed to behave. And if we're aware of that and we're conscious of that, um, then we can be mindful of behaving in a way that feels right. I can be what mindful of behaving in a way that feels right for me. But if I'm not conscious of it, particularly when I'm surrounded by a group of other men in a corporate space or at a football club or wherever I am on a mind site, um then I might find that my behavior is dragged in in one direction or another. And I think James is is is really right in saying that the impact very very often falls on women of the way men are behaving. Um, but the the impacts on men are are are massive as as well. And so for me, this idea of I think toxic masculinity is an interesting term because it's a difficult term because I think the people that need to hear this message the most tend to kind of rally against that term as well. So I I tend to avoid using that term in my work, and I still think there's ways of getting that that message across. But if toxic is means unhealthy or harmful, and masculinity are those those character traits that we associate with men, I think there's healthy ways of expressing those character traits that we think of as manly, as being decisive, as being dependable, as being a breadwinner. But then a toxic version might be like being the breadwinner, being the the one who has to be the provider, and other people shouldn't be be contributing to my family. I think we can all be breadwinners. Um, and to be decisive is a is a good thing, but to be decisive and not listening to other people's opinions is not necessarily a uh a good thing. So it's a it's a can of worms, but there's a there's a a snippet of my insight.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Brilliant, brilliant. Um, I have a little insight. So I've been doing lots of work with uh organizations with all sorts of uh cultures from you know some background cultural perspective. And for anyone who wants to geek out, I'll add it into the show notes. Have you heard of Hofstedt's Cultural Index? So, what you do is you can type in, it's a free little tool, and this is from the 70s, it still goes uh uh to this day. So you can type in Australia and India, and then within that, you'll you'll get a report of the power dynamics, uh, the individuality of the culture, and the masculinity and the femininity of the culture as well. Um, so that's been really insightful for me for the different kinds of works that I do. But from your experiences, and Mike, you started to talk about the workplace. Can I ask you how unhealthy masculinity uh manifests itself within the workplace?

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Yeah, it's it's a really interesting question. I think it's different in different workplaces. And and your question around what does it look like in different cultures, I think we can apply that to it's probably different on a mine site in a in a coal mine as it is to a you know uh a law firm or something like that. So I think the experts in the in the culture in the workplace are probably people in in individual workplaces. But if we think about the core parts of how um, you know, our culture of masculinity impacts men, it impacts our our well-being and our our ability to ask for help and the stress we put on on ourselves. And it also impacts our um our ability to collaborate and to work with others and to trust others and to rely on others and to seek others' opinion versus this idea where I'm supposed to have the answers. Um so I think one of the big things that shows up is we sometimes as men think I'm supposed to be decisive. Uh and and you know, does that enable me to be a great collaborator? Does that enable me to support, to seek the input of women on my team, even to seek the input of other men on my team?

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Um so I think it gets in the way of us collaborating, it gets in the way of us asking for help, it gets in the way of us seeking support when we're really struggling in terms of our in terms of our um well-being. And also uh what was I gonna say there? I had some other crucial point, but I might have to go back to it. You know, collaboration, seeking for help, being able to, being able to care for ourselves, I think are some of the key parts.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Absolutely, I think. James, go.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah, do you know as Mike was talking then? I was just thinking, he's you're absolutely right. When we're working in these environments, um, surrounded by the other people, and certainly from the environments where I've worked in, which is predominantly a male-dominated environment, we do sort of like look for other people around us for that guidance, don't we? And if we are excluding some people, whether it's consciously or unconsciously, we're not getting the best of all the people around us, are we? You know, so I absolutely agree with what Mike is saying there. Absolutely agree with him.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

This is really interesting. So um, I'm writing as you're talking because I've got many aha moments. So, Mike, you talked about um unhealthy masculinity, and then you use this really interesting sentence, my behavior is dragged, right? So, from a workplace perspective, I have seen so when I'm when I'm supporting organizations with really bad organizational cultures, um, I've supported a few with toxic masculinity issues. One of the things that I really come across is when I'm having one-to-one interviews with people, really trying to understand the root cause of the issue, people are dragged into it. Even though I don't believe in it, hey, but I can't speak out. And people being men. So when I'm speaking to this group of men about what the hell is happening and why is it happening? A fair few have said to me, Well, I feel really uncomfortable, but I don't feel comfortable speaking out against, you know, my my fellow peers. So there is that element of being dragged into it. Have you come across that from your perspective of the work that both of you do? And who wants to take the floor here?

SPEAKER_03 16:52

I'm happy to talk on that. I think that's a huge part of what our whole uh this whole conversation around masculinity is about. I think in Australia, for sure, I can say we learn as as young men that the way to fit in, the way to find a sense of belonging is to behave in a certain way. And certain things aren't okay for young blokes. Um, you know, we like to think we're these rational, uh, high-level uh human creatures, and our behavior comes from our prefrontal cortex and and our forethought and our insight. And we know that a lot of our behavior comes from our limbic system and emotional centers. But what we don't talk about is how much of our behavior comes from culture. When I say how you're going, most people say, good thanks. That's a cultural response. That's an anonymous response. That's not me saying how I'm actually going. And these kind of that's just one small example of how we're supposed to be. When someone says you've been offered a promotion, you say, Yep, I'll take the promotion. You don't think as a man, is this in the best interest of my family, of my children, of my partner? Am I the best qualified person? Is there women in this workplace who might be better qualified for that job? Is there men in this workplace who might be better better qualified for that job? So much of our behavior is enculturated. It's just how we are and and and you know, our automatic reactions. So I think if we're going to try and unpack this masculinity thing, I think it's worth us considering how do we respond when a man asks for flexible leave in the work to look after his kids? How do we respond when a man says no to a promotion? How do we respond when a man chooses to take a day off for mental health leave? Is do we do we give him the same level of care and compassion that we give women? And do it do we ask women for the same input and in insight and leadership and ideas that we're asking for men in the workshop? And I think a lot of our responses are automated. We look to sometimes to the loudest voice in the room, which is very often a bloke like me, a big loud bloke like me.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

James, you have worked in very male-dominated industries and your partner works in very male-dominated industries as well. This this element of, you know, my behaviour is dragged. Do you see that within those workforces? And what are those workforces?

SPEAKER_02 19:09

So, yeah. I think is my behaviour dragged with the people I'm surrounded by? Again, being in a very male-dominated environment, it's very easy to fit in with men around us. Something that I've certainly seen and experienced is um females working in this male-dominated environment and using the phrase everything's all right, I'm just one of the lads. Now, for me, when I hear a female in the workforce saying that I'm just one of the lads is a red flag. So you know you don't hear it the other way around. You don't hear men say, Yeah, but it's fine because I'm just one of the girls, you know, whether it might be that you're working in a primary school or you know, as a nurse or a midwife or something like that as a male, you never hear a man say, Yeah, but I'm just one of the girls. It's fine. So when you hear someone saying, Yeah, but I'm just one of the lads, massive red flag for me, this means that you've got someone that is adapting their values, who they stand for as a person, you know, their own individual identity to fit in with the cultural norm of the environment that they're in. So you see that certainly in the UK Fire and Rescue Service, which we know is a male-dominated environment. And there's also strands that sit within the ambulance service, within the police force as well, that are male dominated. And I expect that you see the same kind of behaviours from people there too.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Okay, fascinating. And you've just given me an aha moment. So, you know, when I when I am interviewing these people within a workplace, and when I ask uh women especially, you knew about this and you were complicit in the behaviour. They don't so in Australia, people don't actually say I'm one of the lads, but I think that perception is there. And here in Australia, what we have, and Mike can talk to this as well, is this big culture of mateship. We're mates, so I think in that respect, people are pulled in to unhealthy behaviors, you know, people from all genders in that respect, and then therefore don't feel comfortable to speak out. Um, really interesting. I okay continuing on with this theme then. Are men unfairly blamed for negative behaviors that I associated with toxic masculinity? And are there any other factors at play?

SPEAKER_02 21:38

I think it's a really good question. Joe James. Yeah, go on. You can no, please carry on, Mike. Carry on.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

I'm I'm really interested in this because I um certainly in my history of working with young blokes, I've I've worked with a lot of young guys in school and talking to 15, 16 year olds, uh, and they they tell me that they're getting lectured about respect all of the time. Um, and they're they're like, hang on a sec, we didn't. Cause we didn't cause this problem, and I'm getting blamed for something that one other kid did. And that, and what they're not taking responsibility for is like, I'm actually part of this culture. If I'm creating this culture around mateship and one of the lads and my mates, you know, fit in by doing this, well, what impact is that having on others? So I think there's a lot of uh men and boys out there who feel blamed for what other men are doing, but you know, am I part of the solution? Am I part of contributing to a culture where where women feel like they have to be one of the lads to actually to actually fit in? So yeah, I think there's a lot of men that feel uh blamed for what other men are doing. But the thing is, so much of this behavior that's not working is caused by our culture. Well, how how are you contributing to the culture, mate? Are you part of the solution? And if you feel like you're being blamed that someone else is doing, I think if you're not part of the solution, then maybe you are part of the problem. I I I like this, I like to think of this as not as a problem that that women should be fixing. And I have more women wanting to talk to me about toxic masculinity than men. I don't think the people who are best placed to fix this are women or non-binary folks. And I don't think they're the people who are so depressed that they can't get out of bed or narcissistic sociopaths. They're the 90% of men in the middle who actually care about how other people feel in the workplace. But at the moment, I don't think men have enough sort of courage to actually do something and say something about it when they see something that's not right. So I think we are if we don't want to be feel blamed, then we have to start making sure that we're part of the solution.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

I would absolutely agree with that, Mike, as well. And I think a lot of the time this is an unconscious thing that men are potentially doing at work. They've just blended into the culture that already pre-exists in the environment they've come into. And you might come in, uh, and I use an analogy of different colours and different shapes that join an organization that's got this blue square way of thinking. So your CEO, he's very much the blue square, and that kind of impression is pushed down the line. So you might have your yellow triangle that comes in, but your yellow triangle is that kind of drop in the ocean that then blends in to be in a blue square. So they start thinking and behaving like others around them. So I don't think it's an intentional thing in most circumstances. And self-awareness is absolutely the first place to look at with this. When we started exploring toxic masculinity within the UK Fire and Rescue Service, I started asking other people about experiences that they had. And one of the very first things that I did was then come back to myself and think, am I part of the problem? Have I made other people feel uncomfortable? Have I suppressed someone else? And the reality is, in that 20 years I was there, I almost certainly at some point I will have done. And I'll happily put my hand up and say, I I probably I probably did. But I absolutely reflected on that, learned from that, and made sure I didn't do that again. And I think this is one thing that we can do in the very first instant is ask questions, observe what's going on around us, and see if it's something that someone else is doing, but certainly look at yourself in the first instance as well and just ask yourself that question. Am I doing something that could cause someone else to feel uncomfortable or suppress someone else in the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Amazing question. Um, and when I'm thinking about organizational culture, when I'm consulting organizations, I even look at their symbols, their systems, their processes to see if they are enabling toxic or unhealthy masculine behaviors, let's say. And that's that, you know, combative or power play and conflicting kind of messaging. And is it more akin to that kind of personality, or is it more of um an open kind of value system for all? So it's really interesting when you get to look at the in-depth uh aspects of a workplace culture as well. Is it enabling it? You know, sometimes organizational cultures do enable it because uh sales cultures, especially profit-driven, you know, like sell, sell, sell. And then, you know, you talked about the police and the emergency services. Yeah, a lot of these cultures potentially enable that kind of behavior as well. So we really need to look at it from a systemic perspective and not just an individual perspective. So leaning on from Mike, please.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

I just wanted to add something onto that as well, because I agree with you 100%. And I also think we need to look at those cultural influence influences beyond our workplaces, particularly for young men. If you're a young guy who's growing up with the all kinds of messages you're receiving around how we're supposed to be as men on on TikTok, on Netflix, on YouTube, the kind of messages that that are out there are not um you know leading us towards the best version of ourselves. And 100% agree with what James said earlier around that self-awareness piece, because I I just don't think there's many men who woke up this morning and thought, oh, I'm gonna make a woman feel uncomfortable today. But I reckon there's a lot of men that did that today around Australia, around the UK, around the world. And it's not actually how they want to show up. I think we as men need to really start to think, well, how do I want women at my workplace to feel? How do I want men with mental health issues at my workplace to feel? If I want women to feel safe and equal and celebrated and valued, oh guess what? I probably want men to feel that way as well. So let's let's start thinking around how is my is my behavior in line with how I actually want to want to impact other people at work. Totally agree, Prino.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Absolutely. I'm gonna add to that now, Mike. The other thing we haven't talked about is something that's very, very prevalent on the internet, porn. And oh my gosh, uh, toxic masculinity 101 there on you know, a lot of cases. And you know, we're talking about societal and external factors, that is just so detrimental to young people, especially believing that that kind of behavior is fine and that it's okay within society. Um, so to question that and to quash those and to show alternatives as well is really important. And I know you guys do work in on all sorts in relation to that and beyond. So, people please reach out. If you have questions about anything beyond this conversation, reach out to Mike and James. Leaning on from the workplace uh conversation now, going back to that. Are some men unfairly blamed for toxic behavior in the workplace? And is it possible that women can also exhibit toxic behavior? So we talked about I'm one of the land lads, but beyond that.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Yeah, I I think it it is absolutely possible that people could be unfairly blamed for it. I think we spoke about this briefly earlier with cultures that we've come into and we've been absorbed into. And we just acted in line with how others around us are behaving. And it I like I said, it could be very, very unconsciously a case where someone is behaving in a way expressing toxic masculinity. And again, it just comes back to a little bit of self-awareness, asking the question and observing what's going on around us uh to see if we can we can do it consciously though, if we are doing it consciously, we need to sort of like address that straight away. That is something that does need to be looked at. Um, yeah. Mike, anything on that?

SPEAKER_03 29:33

Yeah, I think I think if we've created a workplace that that enables this unhealthy expressions of masculinity, then I think if you, regardless of your gender, if you want a promotion in a workplace that that values results above people and pushing other people around, I I think everyone is is drawn to to unhealthy behaviours. So yeah, like you said, I think the key is to to really get clear on, you know, maybe putting a fine-tooth comb over what toxic masculinity looks like and saying, you know, how are we rewarding it? Where are we celebrating the wrong behavior? Where are we promoting the wrong behaviour? And um, what do we want instead? Let's get clear on our values and what they look like and have more conversations about them.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Beautiful. How can men be allies in the fight against toxic masculinity? And what practical actions can they take to support and empower each other also?

SPEAKER_03 30:25

I think the first the first thing for me is if we want men to be allies in the fight, we have to realize how this is impacting men. Um, in in Australia, three-quarters of suicides are males. Yeah, men, men die five years younger on average than women in Australia and are twice as likely to die of preventable causes because we just don't ask for help and we just don't go to the doctor. And I think that's key in engaging men in this kind of a concept. Like, we're not winning here. Yes, we might be getting a promotion, but there's so many blokes who are just overworked and out of alignment with who they want to be because they haven't actually thought deeply around, you know, what is the choice I want to make? Who do I want to be? How do I want to show up? How do I want to impact others? So I think one of the keys in terms of engaging men in allyship here is like, think about the ways in that we're not winning from all this pressure to carry the load of being a being a breadwinner. Um, and and you know, the self-awareness piece that James was talking about earlier. Have a have a deep think around how you want to show up. Do you want to be seen as a tough guy, ultra masculine, alpha, big dog? Or do you want to be seen as a great collaborator, an innovator, um, uh humble and collaborative and a creative leader? Have a think. Do the work and and don't be asking women to give you the answers. Have a really deep think around how you want to show up for people of all genders in in your workshop, in your workplace.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

I I'd add to that, Mike, as well. Totally agree. For me, be open-minded as well. And when we talk about the term toxic masculinity, it's it's very easy to be offended by that term, especially as a man, because the term masculinity is so it can mean so many different things for different people. I know personally for me, when I look at what masculine means to me, I think of a kind, supporting, caring person that looks after others, gets the best out of other people, empowers other people to do things. This is what masculinity means to me. Even showing my emotions and expressing how I feel about things so that I'm not bottling things up. That's what masculinity means for me, in my opinion. So the term toxic masculinity, understand what is being talked about in that terminology. Be very open-minded to it. Don't be closed off to the whole thought of, well, that's not me, I'm not going there. We need to understand what that terminology actually means. And Mike, you said earlier about that, you know, toxic masculinity and actually not particularly liking the term. I mean, I'm very similar. I like to look at toxic behaviors uh as an overall arching thing. Um, and masculinity, again, like I said, it just can mean different things to different people. So be open-minded and be willing to learn about this in the first instance. Ask other people how they feel, what they're experiencing. Observe what is going on in your workplace. Have you got someone in the workplace that is being really withdrawn? Is have you got someone that is being quite overbearing with them? Uh, you know, is someone just underperforming at work because of an experience that they're having with another person there. It's just seeing what's going on. There's a couple of ways of sort of like dealing with it as well. And I think you've got the obvious one of like when you see something that's inappropriate, you can point your finger and shut it down instantly. That's one way of dealing with it. The problem with doing that is you close down any potential learning opportunity and you can potentially shame people and make people feel very uncomfortable. Yeah, what you could do instead is perhaps ask the question, why are you doing that? You know, I'm just gonna make up names here, but Ben, why are you saying such thing about Adam like this, you know, or Ben, why are you saying this about Amanda over here, or whatever you're you're saying? You just maybe start with a conversation. So instead of shutting it down instantly, could you open up a conversation by doing this? And we you asked the question, Prien, about how could you be an ally to women in the workplace? By doing this, what you're doing is you're showing some support, and equally you're also trying to gather some understanding, and by getting that understanding, you're kind of exploring what the culture is like within your workplace. Yeah, so for me, how can I support uh women and be an ally to them? It is by being open-minded, observing what's going on, asking questions, challenging in a healthy way the behavior that you see in your environment and the culture that you've got around you as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Beautiful. Both of you have made so many amazing points. One of the points that you made, um, Mike, was think about the ways in which we are not managing, as in you were talking to men. Think about the ways in we are not managing. That's a really interesting question that you're asking people to consider. Um, and I remember, so I did a few speeches for International Women's Day this year, and I've been researching loads on all things women, equality, and Jermaine Greer, you can love her or you can hate her, up to you. But she says that there's a really interesting thing that she said is why on earth would I want equality? Why on earth would I want the same thing as men? They're not happy at the moment as it is. Why not just break the system first off and start afresh properly again? Question everything. Um, it's a really good point there to question everything and challenge everything, like you were saying, James, also. Now, is it possible that some traits associated with unhealthy masculinity, such as assertiveness, competitiveness, are actually positive in certain contexts?

SPEAKER_02 36:13

I could certainly start this one off. And again, this is looking at the experience that we've got within the UK emergency services, and equally sort of like within the military, uh, that runs sort of very closely alongside what we do in the emergency services. There definitely are occasions when assertiveness is something that you need to have. Now, I might be uh called to attend a house fire, and there's someone within that house fire that needs to be rescued. I need to have an autocratic kind of style of leadership in a small uh sector of that incident to direct people to where I need them to go. So I need that, but to support that, I also need the really good soft skills, the soft leadership skills behind all of this, so that I've already built a great rapport and trust with the team around me. So, yes, you can need some assertiveness, but you also need the other side of things as well. So to answer the question, yeah, absolutely, there's times when assertiveness is a good thing, but it's got to be appropriate and needs to be in the right situation as well.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

Yeah, to me, that I I agree with that, James. And I think it's for me, it's a it's about, like you said, that balance between, you know, assertiveness and patience, if it might be, or or whatever you want to uh put the um on it on each side of the scale. But also it's about you know redefining what what assertiveness means. Is is assertiveness pushing someone around and being aggressive, or is it being clear? Because being clear is is being kind. You know, no one wins when I when I choose to not be clear with my communication, but you can be clear and be kind at the same time. So I would agree for me, it's about you know redefining what we mean by assertive and and redefining what we mean by decisive. And you know, having the courage to ask people in my workplace, I feel like I'm really decisive. How do you find that? And you know, having the courage to to redefine my version of what uh decisive and and assertive uh means. Um, because I think these are all skills. Uh, even going back to you you talked uh a bit before, James, about being able to stand up and say something when when someone's out of line. If I say, hey, that's not okay here, that's important. But often that puts people on the back foot and often it just can escalate the the argument. So, how can we get better at being a being an upstander who intervenes when someone else is out of line? And how can we get better at being decisive and get better at being assertive and get better at being patient, get better at being a listener, like those whole gamut of skills, those those human skills that I that I call them, um, uh they're learnable. They're not they're not magic things that men have and women don't, or that women have and and men don't. You know, men can learn to be better listeners, women can learn to be better listeners, men can learn to be more decisive or more effectively decisive, as as can all people of of all genders. We'll look look at those soft skills. They're not very soft, um, they're kind of really hard sometimes. But look at them as skills that we can all flex and get better at.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Brilliant. Again, Mike, where we talk about the assertiveness thing as well, I think coming in at the end of the example that I gave earlier, something that we would do is we would debrief after we've had a very kind of stressful uh experience, go into you know, set said incident that I mentioned earlier. So when you debrief, you would say, Were my decisions right and appropriate? But you would have that amongst everyone within your group. So you're not just being assertive, saying it, and then go, right, I clearly did the right thing. You're then seeking some feedback from other people in and around you. Say, was my decision right in what I did there? Because now we've got the time to actually talk about this. After the stressful things happened, we've got some time now to have a chat. And that's a really healthy thing to do. And that's where some great learning comes from the decisions that we've made in those examples. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:09

Which takes real humility and ability to, you know, be vulnerable enough to admit that I might not have made the decision, the right decision in the in the moment, and and that that's what makes me human. And that that humility is one thing I think that that some men can get can get better at without a doubt.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

I agree totally.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Have we missed anything before I ask you both a final important question? Any other burning comments?

SPEAKER_03 40:43

That's for me, the the heart of it is the way forward, I think, is we just need to be having more conversations around this, more and better open conversations where we're really listening to each other. I think the solution is men need to hear what life is like for women in this workplace, for women in this community. And I think women need to hear what life is like for men as well, the struggles and difficulties that that men face, and to hear, you know, what's it like to be a bloke with a mental health problem in this workplace? What's it like to be a father who wants to spend more time with his kids in this workplace? And you know, I I talk a lot about better conversations. That's the name of my one of my uh corporate sort of programs is better conversations at work. I I really believe the way forward is for men to understand the experience of women better, and of course, for women to understand what life is like for men.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

100%.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Now I I I would I would agree absolutely with with what Mike's in there. And for me, the the thing that I would take from this is just don't don't pass on an opportunity to talk about this, don't shut down. If you see a behavior and you want to talk about it, that's the time to talk about it. Create a safe environment and culture at work where everyone feels comfortable to talk about this. I know, Prina, you talk a lot about creating great subcultures and cultures within the workplace. This is the key thing. When you've got a great subculture and a great environment at work, we can have these really good open conversations where people feel comfortable to speak openly and honestly without fear of judgment and reprimand. And that's so important, especially for someone who is so say uh the perpetrator in this kind of you know uh scenario of toxic masculinity. If they can speak openly about why they are behaving the way they are, we people are way more likely to learn from this. So don't shut down an opportunity to have this conversation with someone. Don't instantly point the finger and shut it down. That's what I would say with this.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Perfect. Now, my final question to Mike to begin with. Mike, if I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace? It can be related to this or whatever else. Get as controversial as you want.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Oh, simple one for me, just more flexibility for particularly for fathers. I think there's a lot of men out there that want to be more involved in their family life. And I think if if we want more women to be able to step up as leaders, I think men's ability to actually step back. Men in Australia are twice as likely to be refused requests for flexible work, to be dads, to care for their mum, to, you know, whatever it might be. I think um we're starting to make real gains in terms of women in leadership, but I don't know if we're making huge gains in terms of men moving into care and service and and and education, health, and all these kind of ways as well. So I think one of the key things we can do for men is to um is to give them a bit more flexibility. Like you don't have to be the alpha, you don't have to be the boss all the time. There's there's other ways of being, and you might actually enjoy your life a bit better, and you might find someone who's more capable, gets gets the promotion instead, and and everyone wins. Um, so more flexibility for uh for men, particularly fathers, fathers at work, I think would be you know my magic one moment.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

100%, Mike. Two things. There's an amazing organization. I don't even know if it exists in the UK anymore, so I'm ex-UK, Fathers for Justice. They have been fighting for this stuff for years. Oh my gosh, years and years. There's that, and then I was gonna say something, but I've forgotten. So, James, if I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way you would change your way off the workplace?

SPEAKER_02 44:36

This is a great question. There's a few things that come to mind straight away, but I'll pick one. I'll pick one, and for me, it's about leadership training. All too often in organizations, we wait until people are in a position of leadership or management before we actually give them some form of leadership training, and that can be something as simple as how do we have a difficult conversation? Something I know Mike is amazing at. So if we can train people before they're in a position of leadership, so coaching, mentoring, put them on a leadership program, whatever it might be, they can already go into a leadership role and they can already be practicing it before they're in this leadership role, by the way. And they can deal with these kinds of conversations and these kinds of behaviors before it becomes a greater problem. Do you know what I mean? Because people just don't know how to deal with it. They wait until they're in this position. So for me, it's leadership training in the very first instance.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Amazing, James, you may have read my mind. I have been banging on for years about management training, is what I call it. And that's management 101, the basics of working with people. And it's these soft skills, which are hard skills, as Mike rightly put it, because if you've got a shitty manager, no way are they gonna be a good leader. Man, woman, whatever gender you are. That's the crux of it. I could talk to you forever. That might be a part two, I reckon. Uh, thank you so, so much for your time. It has been a pleasure. I have learned a lot, and the audience are gonna love this. So thank you. All details about this episode are in the show notes. If you like this episode, I'd like you to take a moment and think about at least two people who might enjoy it. And please share the episode details with them too. Also, don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn on Instagram at iamphenance.