77. Learn from a Sales Expert: How to Sell Your Ideas at Work

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change the Workday with myself, Bruno Char. I love what I do. I'm a global leadership coach, a consultant, a trainer, a keynote speaker, a podcaster. I help you to develop your leaders, your teams, and I help you to optimize your organizational cultures. I'm here to help you find ways to change your workplace. Why? Because we spend more time in our waking day at work than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. So in this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Get ready. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah. And I'm really pleased to be introducing my friend to you today, Ren Sagil, who is from Auckland. And Ren and I have been communicating on LinkedIn. We're in a networking group together as well. And I love what Ren stands for. So, Ren, first off, welcome. It's really good to have you on my podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Oh, thank you so much, Prina. I'm so excited. Really cool to have this opportunity. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

My absolute pleasure. Ren, I have a little bit of an introduction to you. So if I may, Ren is a very talented person. Ren has over 25 years of experience in business development, sales, and leadership. She managed corporate and large complex accounts across telco and the IT industry. Check this out. Ranging from 50,000 to 40 million euro contracts. She's worked for Globe Telecom, Alcatel Lucent, Ruckus Wireless, and Vodafone. She's been an account director and country manager. She's done all sorts. Ren's expertise is in building trusting relationships, navigating complex deals, and influencing and inspiring teams and clients. Ren is a lifelong learner, which is what I love about her. She's always learning something or the other. She's really interested in sales strategies and leadership and her own professional development. Today, Ren is her own boss and serves dynamic tech companies and individuals who want to accelerate their growth in B2B enterprise deals. Ren's details are going to be in the show notes, but specifically, what I want to talk to Wren about today, I'm calling this Ren, learn from a sales expert how to sell ideas at work, Ren. Because one of the problems I had when I was working in corporate land is I would have the best ideas, but then I just didn't know how to sell that stuff, you know? And a lot of my clients also say this, Ren. So I thought, why not speak to the world's best, which is you? Um, so welcome, Ren.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

First off, why do you do what you do? Oh my gosh, I don't know where to start, Pina. That's just an amazing introduction. It's all real though, but the way you say it, it's just like, whoo, that was awesome. Thank you so much. Yes. So, why do I do what I do? I just love it. I love working with people. And I think unfortunately, sales is a very negative connotation because you know, at the end of the day, people think like you're selling me something that you're doing something to me that I don't want, or you're selling something to me that I don't have control of, and that's what's it's wrong. And I am an advocate for ethics, you know, in sales. So yeah, so why I love it, I meet a lot of people, I different behavior styles, different kinds from CEOs to tech engineers, uh, creative people, you name it, right? You you just um meet different people every day. And I think that what's I'm an extrovert, uh, and I just love people. I just love meeting different kinds of people. So, and also I guess in sales there's a challenge of you're right, you're selling an idea, a product, a service to someone, and how do you get them on board with you? That's a challenge, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

The biggest challenge. I love the fact that you said that sales has a negative connotation, and I think Ren, a lot of people latch onto that. So I can't toot my own horn, I can't sell this, I can't sell that. So they even think about this in a work perspective in relation to projects or ideas that people may have at work, which is really difficult. Um, so can I ask you another question? How do you define selling in the context of an internal knowledge worker and what skills are required to be successful in this role from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

So to be to be successful in sales, really it's uh emotional human behavior. And to to tell you honestly, Prina, I think I was a better salesperson when I got my coaching certification.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Because I just was blown away. I'm just like, oh my god, I'm such a better person after I got I got my coaching. Because obviously, as a young salesperson, you I had a lot of sales training, right? I think that was the biggest gift that I had. So I'm, you know, I've been in sales for 25 years, and as you can imagine, I started with the telco industry when it started. So that's why it's a million dollar because we were building the first broadband, the first mobile network, the first 2G. This was the massive, um, massive really, but actually, my career started before that. The first product that I was selling are satellite links to connect connect the banks. You know, you know, before when you go to the bank, there's no there's no online, like you have to get a check and they have to clear it a week or so because they have to clear and all the, but now it's just seconds, you get your money, right? Yep, so that was my heyday connecting all of this um satellite links. So online banking started, IPv, IP networks. And when I realized, going back to your question, how do you actually sell ideas? So I think there's two types of um uh conversations to take in when you sell. The first one is there's uh uh an innate need, you know, you know that there's a need, yeah. You it's so obvious that they need your product, but are you the right product for them? They they have a need, so the way you sell is you understand what the challenges are, the pain points. So uh you gotta dig deeper how to be uh the solution to their needs, right? Yeah, but it's challenging when they don't think they need you, yeah, right? That's the challenging part, especially if you're selling a new innovation and you're gonna push them to a different kind of thinking. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

And this is what I often hear and from my clients isn't that the organization wants this, however, the executive are not on board. So that's the challenge and the tension and conflict that arises.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Yeah. So when the need is not defined, then you gotta think high higher purpose, like more visionary. Yes, what does it give them? Right, right. What what where will you take them? Yeah, what's possible? What's what's the remarkable thing? I was just watching a movie over the weekend. Have you watched Air, the Michael Jordan story? So it's Nike, and at that time, Michael Jordan was 18 years old. I think I watched it in Amazon Prime, not on Netflix. And at that time, Michael Jordan was 18 years old, division one, you know, basketball player, everyone's running after him to go into the pro leagues, right? And Nike was like 17 off the market, and Adidas was like the shoes, right? And Michael Jordan, and there was Converse as well, I think second player, and Michael Jordan didn't even want to talk to Nike, he just wanted to go to Adidas, right? And there's this guy played by Matt Damon, he was a marketing guy, and he just wants Michael Jordan. So, oh my god, it sent me goosebumps, right? When they met finally, well, you know, tenacity, persistence. He went to he did things that he's not supposed to do, went to the parents, bypassed the agent, you know, all of those things that really crafty, hardcore salespeople do, like never say die, uh, and uh do things and then apologize later sometimes. Yeah, learn the but he made Michael. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, exactly. But then when he finally had a chance to meet Michael Jordan, because uh the mom actually supported him, the Daikin marketing guy, he sold a vision to Michael Jordan.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Uh-huh. Okay, so we're now talking about visionary storytelling as well. So we need to have our ideas together in our head and so succinct that if I'm going to the executive to, you know, uh present to the board or to the executive to sell my idea, I need to have that full vision in terms of a story. I love that you said outline the challenges, the pain points, and the solutions. Um, Ren, you also talked earlier about the fact that something really changed for you when you did your coaching certificate. What that what that was that really changed.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Understanding people better. Yeah, because I can read people, like I would know, you know, I learned this styles, even though when I was in sales, I kind of know that. But when I did coaching, I said I understood people better because I'm more patient in taking them to a journey, and you know that's what coaching is all about, right? Coaching, I I just had an interview with an ICF guy last week, and he reminded me what's the difference between sales coaching and sales training. Sales training is you tell you you tell the sales people what to do, the skill set, how to negotiate. But sales coaching is going into a journey with them. And then I think if you apply it in sales, like don't tell your idea to your client, don't accept what your client also says, but mutually collaborate and brainstorm together and really trusting each other to challenge each other to come up with a best solution, whether it's your it's your product or not, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

This is quite the important point. So now we're talking about co-design. So we're entering this conversation, we're opening the door to more ideas beyond ours, and then we're even expanding even more to something wonderful that might turn out. Um the other thing also, so visionary storytelling is quite the skill. And I've I've had a couple of uh podcast guests in the past train, David Pullen and Jamie Dixon. You need to check out those episodes.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Wow, I'll check them.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yeah. Uh so I'll I'll add them to the show notes as well. That's really important. So we might have this idea, but we can't be stuck to it because if we're open to it, when we have that conversation, it might flourish into something even bigger and better.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Absolutely. And our clients really know their ecosystem better than us, yeah, but we know the innovation. So when you put it together, it's just gonna be amazing. Like I've had sales deals that uh it was already won by a vendor. I was able to do it, and and I mean, I'm really proud of that because it's things like pitching not just your idea, but that's what I said, it's working together and say, Hey, well, how can I make it different? They're only selling you a product. I want to sell you uh something else, like a vision, and then you get into that conversation, and then they say something, and then you got this idea. I'm like, oh my god, okay, we're gonna do this. So, one of the uh big projects that I had here in NZ is uh the Wi-Fi, the the the Spark Telecom. Um have these Wi-Fi boots like Telstra. Before the Telstra Wi-Fi, Spark did that three years ahead, and that was my major project with them. And I know my competitor already signed up with them, but I came in. Well, to be honest, my product was amazing because it's just like Wi-Fi that you can reach for three kilometers, but also beyond the product, we started talking about what does it mean for for them? And I started, we started talking about because we were very early at that time when I was with Rackus building community Wi-Fi's, and we kind of sold the idea to them like be a community Wi-Fi, bridge communities, uh reaching to public spaces and stuff like that. So it kind of resonates with them, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

So it's more than the product itself, but understanding them, that end user or the customer itself. Brilliant. And I really see how your coaching um qualification really helps with this because I mean I'm a qualified coach as well. And with coaching, we don't ever give answers, we ask the right questions and lead people to wherever. So it's leading people on a journey as well by asking the right questions and keeping our mind open to whatever that might result in.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I need to do better in that space. We all do, honestly. But I think really asking great questions, you know, simple questions like what the success looks like, yes, you know, simple questions like what else do you think? You know, it's enough to trigger, right? Uh, but it's a skill, as I said, like, and you only learn it when you study practice, role. Oh, that's a that's one thing as well, role playing. Yeah, right. I would really encourage, you know, when you're trying to pitch an idea in in your company, pitch it to your husband, pitch it to your friend, pitch it, pitch it to your kid, yeah, practice, and then you'll get more comfortable, they're gonna ask uh questions, then you're gonna, oh, I I have to think about that and make it more fun.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, yeah. Cool. Uh, Ren, selling is about relationships. What are some effective strategies for identifying and cultivating relationships with key stakeholders within organizations ethically?

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Okay, so I guess as the start is are you talking about internal or external?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Like your internal, internal within the clients, and when you say ethically, you mean without manipulation and you know, like to be genuine, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Okay, so yeah, so I guess when you're a salesperson, you're a junior salesperson, you're not that highly connected with your C levels, right? And understandably you get like, oh, that's our CEO, especially if you're in a 10,000 company. Yes, but believe me, I just had this conversation with the CEO of Roccous Wireless, like he's the CEO now, Bart Giordano, and that's one of the questions. Like, how do we connect with CEOs? You know, well, they're only human beings, right? Yes, at the same time. So I think it's hard to think about that, but we should. And the next one is really connect with them at a personal level. What I mean is you can ask uh personal questions without being uh nosy, right? Like, let's just say you're in a sales conference and you saw them rock up, and one day I saw one RCEO in a running gear from the lift, right? Yeah, of course, at the time I was very young, doesn't know me. And I said, Hey sir, I'm one of your salespeople in the Philippines. And then I was in the Philippines. We had a conference in Shanghai, and he goes like, Oh wow, great to meet you! Did you just arrive? You know, really nice person. Uh yeah, and then I said, Oh wow, you you're a runner, and then he started talking about running, you know. And it's interesting during the during the dinner, I saw him again, and he says, like, oh hey, I'm I'm well, I'm dressed now, you won't see me now and run. And he remembers me, right? So for me, it was like, oh my god, he actually remembered me. I don't so they're only humans, right? So I guess first of all, the courage to start talking to them.

unknown 17:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

And if you're in the out of the office environment, talk about something that you know, you know, do a bit of research. If you know they run marathons, talk about marathons. If they have some passion for a not-for-profit, talk talk about it, but you gotta do it first.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Yes, you lead it. Okay, yeah, you gotta lead it first. I love what you've said. I was taking lots of notes. So they're only human, like you and me. So I Ren, I really talk about the issue with hierarchy in workplaces, it scares the shit out of people, and it needs, you know. So we need to drop that hierarchy from our own mindsets, especially when we're trying to sell ideas at work. Uh, be perceptive. So, hey, I've just seen that person in their running gear. Make a comment, you know, connect genuinely with that person, and it's about looking for the right opportunities to connect. So, if they're going to whatever networking event, you could go there as well, grab a seat on the same table, do your research, have the same kind of intel, do your homework. LinkedIn, so many people have their profile. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Like, come on, let's see.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

So, right so much information out there, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Oh, totally, like you see them running a fundraising, have you know, make a comment. Uh, what I wanted to add, Preena, as well, is like really being intentional and not just uh curt courtesy, like, hey, how are you? You know what I mean? Like, not just going to the routine, and I'll I'll give you an example. I but this is a client though, it's uh it's a CEO as well. So I visited one CEO one time and it was already late afternoon on a Friday. Okay, and he's he was going out and he was like, Oh, I'm sorry, do we have a meeting? He said, I was like, Yeah, oh I'm sorry, I have to leave early because uh I have a camping with my son. He said, I was like, Oh, yeah, okay, don't worry about it. Let's set up another one. So then when we met, I asked him, so how was your camping? And it was like after two months, you know, and he looked at me and he's like, You know what? You're the only one who asked me how's my camping. Like, I saw so many vendors that day, that Friday, no one listened, no, no, I mean, no one made a comment about how's the camping, and and he said, you know, it really means a lot to me because um apparently he's separated with his wife and he's always wanting to spend the time with his kids. Wow, which is so for him, yeah, exactly. That's what I was saying. But actually, I didn't, I didn't know, but I just I just remember that hey, the last time we saw each other, you were rushing off to a camp. How's the camping?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

This is the perfect example of listening with the right intent and not being manipulative, you were genuinely interested as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah, I was interested because he was like, Oh my god, I'm so excited because I can see like I'm so excited. I'm sorry, I have to go. We have a meeting. It's like calm down, okay. So, yeah, and when people do that to me as well, right? Like if I mention something to someone and then after we meet, so how was that thing that you mentioned? Oh my god, you have so remembered.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yeah, those those cues, those cues are out there for us, aren't they, Ren? We just need to be aware and pick up on them and remember them as well. So you've got a very good memory as well, clearly. Um, can I ask you another question? So, what are some common mistakes that internal knowledge workers make when trying to sell their ideas or projects? And how can they be avoided? Some common internal mistakes that people make.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Research first, like you need to research, yeah, right. Like, who are your if you're gonna sell an idea, who are you selling this idea to? Yeah, who are they are they gonna be aligned with your idea? So you need to kind of research. And if and the second one is practice, not practicing the pitch or not practicing the idea, right? Yep. Uh like you don't even have to practice it, preena, with someone, just record yourself. Yes. I I find it really because you get confidence, you practice, and you see yourself like, oh my god, I don't like that. I'll do it. Yeah. Saying like, oh that's not right. I'll do it this time, and then you're like, Oh, okay, that looks better. So practicing a lot. I mean, it's it's a uh five-second uh what what's the word? Uh the five-second stardom. What uh there's a word I I can't remember. It's your five-minute five-second pitch or something. There's there's a word about that, and people that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

So psychology states that people make up their mind uh unknowingly within just a few seconds, right? So that that first second, I think that's what you're talking about. Those first few seconds are so crucial, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah, exactly. And how you present them, right? So having that research and how they align, and because in that research, you will know what's in it for them with your thoughts and ideas. How can because you know if you already know that you're gonna pitch something that they you knew they wouldn't like, yeah, don't do it. You need to find not not don't do it, you need to find a way to to to kind of um make it agreeable to them, like meet like meeting each other halfway or first asking questions, right? Yes, like asking questions like if if what do you think of this like testing? I think it's separate from research, right? Um I'm just uh forgetting stuff. So when you research, you also test ideas, right? Well, what do you think of this idea? Like little thing that just a big 100%.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

You reminded me of the concept, and I've got a podcast episode on this or an article, I can't remember. It's the Japanese concept of nemawashi, and that is checking in with all of your stakeholders before you actually do the pitch. Like, hey, one-to-one meetings, like, are we on the right track? Are we aligned? Have I missed anything? It's asking all of those important coaching questions to pull out the information before you go to the exec, let's say, um, and before you even do your pitch. So it's doing your research in a detailed manner, but you're already gaining buy-in that way, subtly. Absolutely. And that's yeah, so it talks to those relationships, doesn't it? The power of the relationships that you're building, also exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

So uh that's interesting because I often do that externally more than internally, but I've done that internally as well. Because and and I think I I want to cover that as well. So, externally, when you're going to present a proposal, as I said before, you know, never send, never email it. You have to talk. Yes, all right. Never email because the proposals don't sell, it's you. This proposal is just a paper. Sending a proposal is just the last thing, right? It's just it's already agreed, right? But before you do that, if you're um having to present it to like five stakeholders, yeah, try to find two or three that you would have a side uh meeting to and say, Hey, on the meeting on Thursday, this is what I'm trying to cover. What do you think? Because you don't want every everyone to be to be shocked, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

And you will find that sometimes, hey, that's so far from what we discuss. Oh, really? What do you think? So this, this, this, this. Then you have time to kind of trim it down, and then also um sending an agenda in advance to that meeting as well. Like, don't shock them, like you're that you're gonna pitch something. Just say, I've been doing some research on this part of the business, I have some ideas that I want to pitch, da-da-da-da. You know, like warming up people. Oh, that sounds good, you know. So you kind of warm them up now. Internally in an organization, one of the things that salespeople need to do really well is sell an opportunity. Because, as you can imagine, for big opportunities, they cannot always submit proposals to everyone, right? They need to submit proposals to opportunities that will win, can win, and have the right resources. Yeah, and so you have to sell that opportunity internally to get buy-in and support from your engineers and CEOs. And it's the same thing. You need to make the pitch, you have to warm them up, you have to ask questions, and also buy-in of hey, this is a really big project. When when we win this, it's not just me, it's the company, yeah. You're part of it, you're part of this breath-taking project, you know, just selling that idea to them that it's just not me, it's you, and and I think people inside the organization are not credited enough. The salespeople are always out there, right? So, oh, Ren won that deal. But honestly, if I didn't have an engineer who did the project for me, if I didn't have a commercial guy who did the pricing for me, I wouldn't have won it, right? I think recognizing them all the time as well, and telling them that, hey, you know, that project that pricing did that made us win. Just little things like that. I think that's one of the things that we often forget, but me, you know, will bring us to a long, long way.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah. So you got that internal support as well. Brent, salespeople have a very tough skin, uh, they're resilient and they have great, they deal with rejection repeatedly and setbacks. What are those skills and how do other people learn them?

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Okay, well, you you have to be yeah, you have to be tick skin in a way that and and you know what, honestly, it's not easy all the time. You know, I always say, I always coach, I they take it personally. Of course, you take you take it personally. Because you can, um, yeah, because you can. Um, but I think it's really loving the the the work, you know, like true salespeople actually know that it's a process, and winning a deal takes you several several times to to go into that journey, yeah. And then you don't get it right, then you improve, and then you don't get it right, and you improve, then finally you win it. And unfortunately, you cannot win until you're in the battle. Oh, yes, right. So get into it. When you're in a battle, sometimes you get hurt, you get wounded, just don't die, right? Because when you die, it means you gave up, or something like that. So that's what I always say, you know. Um, I want to share this because she also gives me a lot of inspiration, and sometimes I'm like saying, Are you my daughter? So I have a daughter who plays um tennis, uh Division I tennis in the US, right? Well, she was a junior here in NZ, and I saw how she cries all the time when she loses a match. And when she got into college, it was like a different, you know, just a just a different stage. Because there's too many, there's a lot of different styles, you know. You can see the loopers doesn't have a good style, but they end up winning because they're just patient and they loop you. And what she told me was that you know, mom, I can't stay in in NZ and and not lose a match, but I want to be better, so I'm in a in a more difficult place, and I just have to be in a difficult place all the time to improve, and sometimes what it means is you lose more than you win. What a wise person this is. I know, right? I was like, Are you a daughter? So it it is, right? It is, and you know, if you if you come to think of it, you can take it easy, not not do the hard stuff, not lose as well, or you level up and take things differently. So, you know, in sales, I think it's just a part of the role that you lose deals, yeah, yeah, and you know, all of those.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

That's the thing, yeah. In knowledge worker, same thing. Ren, oh my gosh. Uh, I want to do a bit of a summary before I ask you my final question. So you started off by saying sales has a never negative connotation, but it need not be. You talked about how we can address how we want to sell and we look at the challenges, pain points, and solutions, asking the right kind of coaching questions as well. We need to remember that the people we are selling to are human beings as well. Remember that. We need to be perceptive and we need to look for opportunities to connect. Um, we need to drop that hierarchy. So if we're trying to sell to the CEO internally, don't freak out. That's a normal human being as well.

unknown 31:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Uh, I love that you said sell an opportunity because that is just something else. And those storytelling skills are so, so important. And then research, find out who is in alignment, apply the nemawashi approach. Um, I love that you also said that it's not just me, it's our collective win. Never within a workplace internally is it one person's win. Yeah. Although, unfortunately, sometimes that's how some people pitch it. That's rubbish. Um, and then there are gonna be setbacks. We are gonna be hitting a wall sometimes, but your lesson, your daughter's lesson, keep going. Keep going, exactly. Amazing. Ren also has a course program uh called Elite Sales Athletes. Ren, I'll add that to the show notes. Awesome, and her newsletter is really interesting as well, full of uh interesting insights and loads of tips, by the way. Thank you so much. Uh, thank you. Before we go, I have one question for you. If I was to give you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace? And it could be anything you want. Love each other, love each other.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Tell me more. Well, I think when you have love for a person, you're just not gonna be biased about what they're saying, like you're always gonna give space and say, Oh, why, why? Oh, actually, Alisa Cohen did a good post the other day at a LinkedIn. She said something like, If you pause and say, Why is this uh emotionally intelligent person, like give them the benefit of the doubt, doing this stupid thing, like if they hurt you or whatever, right? Something like that might be the exact, but it's it's it's us thinking of them as like there must be another reason why, and not just saying that, oh my god, this she's stupid or she's whatever, she doesn't know what she's doing. So I think if you love, I know it's a bit cheeky, but if you think you love the people around you and you care for them, you always have that space to understand why they're doing what they're doing and then jumping into conclusions and just asking them questions like let's say if something happened, right? Like think about why why is she reacting that way? There must be a reason, and then when you have that conversation, instead of telling them that's wrong, why did you do that? Da-da-da-da. Just ask how are you? Like simple, how's things going for you? Yeah, and then maybe something you know, like, oh, maybe something is happening at home, and that's why she messed up.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah, just just I think drop the baggage, hey. Um, yeah, empathy, yeah, empathy, completely, empathy and compassion. There's a beautiful quote. I'm gonna get poetic, you're talking about love. Let's talk about love. There's a beautiful quote by Kahil Gibran in the book The Prophet, the best book ever, uh, for lifelong. And the quote is, love is the natural in-between. So I love that.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

That's beautiful, yeah. Yeah, and sincerely, I'm speaking from the heart. If you have love in your heart, and you know, I guess moving out of corporate and then getting into coaching just changed the way how I look things. And honestly, Prina, if I knew coaching when I was a bit younger, I could have done things differently. I could have been a better person, I could have less enemies. And not like a big I love it, you know, you know, because when you're young, you're passionate, you run after, I mean, I'm a go-getter, and I knew I've hurt some people. But at that time, I thought they were not being that they're not doing your job or they're not good enough or something. But you know, when you're young, you you kind of have to experience all of these things. But now hopefully I'm older and wiser. I look at it in a different perspective. So I guess people should start to learn more about human human intelligence and emotional intelligence, especially now in the day of AI, right? I think that's the most powerful tool as human beings that we have.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

I'm all about bringing feelings into the workplace. And I had a wonderful podcast episode with Larissa Garcia that our audience need to listen to as well. Ren, we keep on talking offline anyway. So to be continued, I just want to say thank you so much for today. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Oh, it's my pleasure as well. It's so enjoyable. Thank you so much, Freena.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

All details about this episode are in the show notes. If you like this episode, I'd like you to take a moment and think about at least two people who might enjoy it. And please share the episode details with them too. Also, don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and on Instagram. I am freena.jar. See you there too.