93. How to Heal a Fractured Team with Yoke Van Dam and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change the Workplace with myself, Prino Char. I love what I do. I'm a global leadership coach, a consultant, a trainer, a keynote speaker, a podcaster. I help you to develop your leaders, your teams, and I help you to optimize your organizational cultures. I'm here to help you find ways to change your workplace. Why? Because we spend more time in our waking day at work than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. So in this podcast, you can expect a mix of interviews with amazing thought leaders and then some solo episodes from myself as well. Strap yourselves in. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with myself, Prina Shah, and I'm excited to introduce to you today my friend Yoker Van Dam, all the way from South Africa. Hello, Joker. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

I'm very well, and it's so nice to meet across the time zones. Prina, thank you so much for making this happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

We're finally doing it. So we have been talking about doing a podcast together forever. And I met Yoker through our mutual friend Leanne, who is also on my podcast a couple of times. So if you haven't listened to that episode, go back and check it out. But today, Yoka, I'm speaking with you. May I introduce you? So my friend Yoka Van Damme, all the way from South Africa, has been called the Kinsugi Queen because of her ability to join, repair, and transfer tea, transform teams into something quite wonderful. And for people who don't know what Kinsugi is, Kinsugi is the Japanese art form of creating something broken into something whole by putting gold leaf and glue on it. So it's beautifying something that was already broken. It's amazing. So Yoko's been called the Kinsugi Queen. Her work is like Kinsugi. And her tried and tested high-performance processes have seen even the most underperforming and fractured teams join together and become stronger and more remarkable. She works with leaders who want to effectively articulate and communicate their vision so that their teams buy into it and are prepared to follow them to hell and back to make sure that this vision is achieved. If Yoko is not advising, speaking, or coaching in South Africa, or by the way, around the globe now, congratulations. She also hikes up mountains. She loves a glass of wine with her husband, Etienne. Yoko, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Thank you so much, Prina. It's um it's been wonderful being on a journey with you all of these years. I think we've known each other for three years. Didn't we meet in 2020, or was it before that? I'm not even sure. Possibly. One of those.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

And Yoko, today I really want to talk to you about something that you and I are really passionate about. And it's the work, one piece of work that you and I both do, and it's how to heal a fractured team. So using your Kintsugi Queen um analogy, I want to talk to you about how to heal a fractured team. And Yoko, to begin with, can you tell us, in your own words, what you do and why you do it?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

So I I help leaders and teams really create meaningful workspaces. So I realized that I needed to reframe even though I'm working with the fractured or toxic teams, it's actually about helping people uncover their purpose so that they can actually find meaning in their work and ultimately helping the leaders and teams build confidence, find their flow, develop a growth mindset, and really influence. So those are the areas. And it's really speaking, training, coaching, and a wide variety of topics. So a lot of EQ, leadership development, problem solving, negotiation skills, all of those nice things. But why I do it, Prina, that's more. I was I was working, um, I was working in a lot of corporate environments, and I think you also saw it there, where I would be training teams and I would get frustrated because the company would say, these are this is our culture and these are our core values, and no one were held accountable to it. And the managers were the worst. And I wasn't even in a management role there. I was um I was in the role of training national sales teams, but then all of the toxicity came up, and then they would say to me, Oh, this department's fighting of this department. So sales hates corporate governance, hates accounts, and they were all working in silos and not like really finding each other. And my mission really became in that business to say, can you create leaders without titles? Can you actually create a positive ripple effect where you can change people from the inside out? So when I started out um Why Connect in 2017, my tagline was changing behavior because I wanted to bring that ribble effect changing behavior. But then when I analyzed it and went much deeper and really getting um through the years, getting into, you know, dealing with those fractured teams and what I really want, I actually realized when you're working at a culture and a purpose level, you're actually operating much higher behavior. There's this model called, um, I don't know if you've worked with logical levels of change in NLP. So at the bottom, you've got environment, and then just above it, you have behavior, what people do, and then above it is values and beliefs and um skills and capabilities, then you have identity and then you have purpose. The higher up the ladder you work with people, it affects everything below it. So I realized that by getting people to really buy into the values, the identity, and the purpose of the business, that would affect everything they do. So I know that's like a a whole mouthful, but ultimately, I think what summarized it for me is there's a quote from Mother Teresa who said, I alone can't change the world, but I can cast a stone across a bed of water and watch it create many ripples. So for me, it's like, what is the ribble effect? Are you leaving a nuclear power zone explosion? I always say, is it like Chernobyl? You know, where 35 years later there's still radiation, people have died. Um, after you've left a business, do you leave it better than how you found out what is the legacy like? And that's often, I think, where I think you also work with a lot of leaders, right? Because if you can create the ripple effect with leaders, the impact is massive, massive. Even coaching one leader, I've noticed how an entire department has shifted. Yeah, coaching one leader, like it's insane.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Yoka, I've got so much to say here. So that's why I love you. So I love the people. Um, the impact is massive, not only on the individual, but on their team and the wider organization. Yoka, I take it further because a happy employee goes home happy, that family is happy, you know, and then the little community is happy, society is happy, the world is happy, you know. So, yes, I'm talking about happiness from a perspective of doing good with the little one piece of thing that you do in relation to the workplace, which is why I'm all about finding ways to change your workplace, because there's more to life than work as well. Let's be honest, it has to be a good place, and I can clearly see that you have a clear values alignment in what you do for the people that you serve.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Definitely. I want to just share a quick story. Um, I interviewed this leader, she's from South Africa. Her name is Margaret Hirsch and Erna spent many years ago sorted the Hirsch Home stores, and last year, July, something hectic happened in South Africa. It was um there were these riots in Kwisulin, the Town and one of their big major major um franchise stores was ransacked. And during that time, I was actually interviewing a lot of leaders asking them what was the impact of COVID on the leaders and teams and all of that. And here she was in the belito at the sea at that store with a broom, cleaning up the store after people had like broken the windows, stealing the washing machines, whatever. And I said to her, Marco, don't you want to, you know, move our interview? And she said, no, let's just do it. And and I I spoke to her about what happened there and how she's dealing with it and all of that. And she said, what they've realized is her and her husband and their bigger family, they're fine. They don't need the income from that store. But that ripple effect, the amount of breadwinners and surrounding communities that would get impacted, they realized that they had to very, very quickly get this store off the ground. They bought all the bricks they could, all the gloss. I think within three days, the store was open and functioning again because they cared about the wider communities and the breedwinners and what it would do to people if they didn't have jobs. And I was like, that is leadership when it's not about your money, it's like you say, going home to the families and the wider communities that gets touched by those people.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Beautiful, amazing, amazing, and I love your 2016 change line about changing behaviors. My I I was thinking my 2016 tagline was for those who question the natural order of things. So see, we are aligned, we are aligned, Yoka. Very much so. So, Yoka, today's conversation is going to be about how to heal fractured teams. But before we even delve into how to, can I ask you what are some of the common signs or indicators that a team is toxic? And how can these be identified, first off?

SPEAKER_01 11:03

So so some of the signs could be if people are people have these high walls, so they are really unwilling to speak up, yeah. Where there's a lack of vulnerability, they're also fearful to spec speak up, also uh a lack of commitment. So lots of meetings, no buy-in, yeah, no um clear action plan, no deadlines, no accountability. So you feel like you're having meetings, meetings, meetings, and nothing happens, and no one is holding anyone accountable to it. But also, um, I'm a very big fan of Patrick Lincione's work, and he says accountability should not just be from the manager or the leader, there should also be group accountability. So I think with toxic teams, it's it's when the when the cat leaves the mouse out of play. So when the manager's not there, um people go crazy. So they they don't actually go towards the goal. So very often um they have a victim mindset, um, they are gossiping in the corridor. So people are not very straightforward with each other. So instead of saying to you, Priya, uh, Priina, I'm not a I'm comfortable with that, I'll go and gossip behind your back and say, oh, that was so terrible when she said this and this. And um, you know, so people are insulting each other, they criticize each other. So instead of addressing behaviors, they criticize each other. So those are just some of the things there's a lot there, Yoko.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

And I know our audience would have, and we have experienced wonderful teams ourselves when we worked in corporate land, and you know, not so great teams as well. Um and going back to what you said about Lencioni and the work that you tap into there as well, um, he talks highly about trust. And Yoko, and you and I are in a team and we don't trust each other, even if you know you're working on A and I'm working on B, if there's that lack of trust between us, we're doomed. Totally, yeah, totally, yeah. So there's silos, there's a lack of trust, there's so much, just dysfunctional teams on many, many levels, lack of accountability and everything that you mentioned. Um, so Joker, you've had a phone call. I am a stressed-out leader, and I need your help. So these are the kind of phone calls you get, and I get. Let's say your team is at its worst stage, or let's say you've inherited a legacy team, you know, you're brand new into this organization, and there's just something not quite right, and you need to focus on team health, that's what I call it. And I know Lencioni is very, very focused on team health as a concept as well. That's lovely, yeah. I love that. Um if someone called you, I'm gonna call you. Okay, I'm brand new in this team, there's something quite wrong with it. Help me. I I need you. Well, what would you do? What can you do? What kind of things can you support me with?

SPEAKER_01 14:16

So there's there's no there's no magic wand, but what you what you can start doing, and what I've often found the moment outside facilitator comes and people sometimes feel much more comfortable in being led in a process. I don't know if you've seen this, where they won't listen to their own manager, but if an outside person makes suggestions, they're much more open to it. So um, what I've seen is we do we focus on a lot of the five dysfunctions of a team and we do kind of like activities and games to get them to realize um where are they aligning, where are they not trusting each other, where is there a lack of communication, all of those things. But what often happens is people don't know each other. So through those interventions, and I think that's something you and Leanne also spoke about, the value of facilitation often lies in the connections people make in that room, in that space. But then also they have the whole moments with real-world things, and then we would apply the foundational work that we've done. So I found Prina for me, there's no magic wand, but when you can start laying the foundation, getting people to notice like the purpose, the culture, the changes they want to make.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yeah, it's it's not an overnight fix, it's not a quick fix. There is no magic wand for it because every team has different quirks and different people. That is the wonder of humanity, yeah. Um, I love the fact that you talk about um it is important to have an outside party, such as an external facilitator or a third person of some sort, because of that psychology psychological safety being broken within a team. Like, hello, it's toxic already, there's issues. So if you try and work on it internally yourself, good luck. It's not gonna work as well as if you have an external third party. Um, when I work on these kinds of projects, similar to yourself, Yoka, it's all about having adult conversations and setting the scene from the get-go. Right? I love the fact that you talked about people don't um know each other often, and it's that connection aspect that's really missing. I use an analogy, or I use an example actually of my own uh experience. Uh so when people don't know each other in a team and you're working with each other, you know, like the whole year or whatever, however long you're in this job, and if we don't know each other, I use an analogy of my own experience where happy Prena, when I was working in corporate days, would have this wonderful idea, and I'd write my business case and I'd take it to my manager and he'd throw it back at me and say, Well, where are the stats? Where is this and where is that? I ended up resenting him like you would not believe yoga. So there was conflict, there was tension, internal tension within me because I felt like I was constantly being rejected by him. Then I finally recommended that we do our own team development session to try and understand each other's work styles. And you know, you can do this, you can do print, you can do all sorts of psychometric tests, whatever you want to do. Exactly. Yeah. Using that as a tool to say, hey, this is me, this is how I communicate, this is how I think, this is how I work, this is how I listen, this is how I talk, all of that. Him and everybody else saying that, I dropped my resentment, yoke. So you really reminded me of that because all I learned, this is a data-driven person who holds the budget and who has to be accountable at the end of the day to the big boss, the chief financial officer. That's all it was about. Simple as that. So that was really interesting, I thought. And then in relation to when we're working on culture change, especially with toxic teams, the other thing I really focus on as well is yes, there's the internal aspect, yoka, but there's often the external aspect because let's be honest, when it's a shitty team, everybody in the organization knows about it. So I think the other healthy aspect, eventually down the line to work on, is your team brand and what you stand for, what you stand against, what your perception is, what you really see or think, and you know, hearing from your customers often as well. And I love the fact that you explained, so you did that one session, and then people came on to you as co-chees. Now, the work that we do, and as you clearly stated, it's not a hey, yoker will come in and our team will be wonderful, hunky dory after you've walked out of that door. No way, that ain't gonna happen. Uh, Leanne in her podcast mentioned a line by uh Michael Bunga Steiner, who talks about taking people out of their workplace into wonderful development programs. So he he uses the analogy of taking a goldfish out of the dirty water and putting it into the clean water of this training or development, whatever it is, and then let's go and pull that goldfish out and put it back into the murky water. No, no way, it's a long-term thing if you want sustainable, positive culture culture change at that team level, right? Um, brilliant, Yoko. You've given so much detail already.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Um, I went to I just want to add something to what you were saying, Prina. Um, so you were saying, I loved what you were saying about the team brand. What do we stand for? What do we stand against, hearing from the customers, so the voice in the customers. So that's really like almost your team culture work and team purpose work that you're doing. I love that. So that the rest of the company doesn't see you as the way that they've always seen you.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

The really important thing for that one person, which we often forget when we're in a shitty team situation and we're, you know, we're in the depths of the worst situation. We ourselves can forget that there is a way out. You can quit, you can go and find another job. Exactly. Exactly. So I think you know, that's yoker. Um, let's talk about that executive level. I'm I'm freestyling even more with you now. So we're talking about toxic teams or broken or fractured teams. A lot of them are often at the highest level at the executive level, which then has such an awful impact on the rest of the organization. Yeah, that flow on effect that you talked about. Um, what can be done in relation to executive teams? Because let's say, Yokeah, I know it all. Who what the hell are you, young person, gonna teach me?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

So, um, what can be done is things like 300 three 360-degree feedback to also get input from from other departments, lower levels, how are they being seen, and then having coaching interventions there. There was a very funny um talk that Patrick Lenzione did with a CEO who he gave, or like a top end director who he helped with 360-degree feedback. And then he had to have a meeting with his department or team to like discuss what feedback was given, but he took no accountability and he was just saying, Okay, so I've seen you guys say that I'm very critical. Do you think I'm critical? And then everyone would say, No, no, no, not at all. And and then he literally said he just was squeaking his chair and he said, Excuse me, you were the people that answered this survey, but there was no psychological safety to actually be able to deal with it. So, in that regard, um I think maybe doing that. And then first having individual coaching with that individual to actually develop the grove mindset because very often I I work with executives who are very perfectionist focused. And when they think that they they are perfect, or like what's bad about it is they don't like to hear negative feedback. They don't have the growth mindset to be open to it. So it's about, I think, like sandwiching it, finding ways of um helping them see that feedback, noticing what they can do about it, you know, maybe delving deeper into specific chunk sizes. Because when you as an individual we're too much negative things, we also shut down. And I think like for that benefit of that person, it needs to like there needs to be a process and a plan to be like also what are the strengths, not just focusing on you know, strength space, focus. Um, what are you really good at? But what do you need to be aware of? What are the blind spots?

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Uh, I have a podcast, I'll link to it in the show notes where I've outlined what I do with executive teams. Uh yoka, so one of the things you talk beautifully about this, you can't just jump straight into here's a 360 and you tell me, is this me, is this not, you know, because you haven't created that safety, uh, you haven't created the trust that there's clearly something lacking. And at that level as well, you know, you're at the height of your career. You don't want to admit to having fucked up either, you know, because that could be career suicide. Um, and it no, yeah, it need not necessarily be completely like messing things up, but even you know, accepting there's a little part of you that needs development, it's it's fragile to my ego, my professional brand. So that's a really difficult thing. So when I work with executive teams to help them come together, we talk about the three concepts. We talk about me as an individual, we as a team, and then us at the organizational level. So that's how I have my conversation. So at that level, what I start off with to create that psychological safety, especially, is to start off with um, like I said earlier, even with executive teams, you can start off with I wouldn't go 360. It depends on the maturity level and whether they can take it. That's a big thing. I would start off with some kind of psychometric test of sorts, so that yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

This is even communication styles, yeah, strength space, test, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

So that you know, I I can hide behind a tool, so to speak. It it's safe. Yes, this is a report that has, you know, scientifically confirmed blah blah blah about me. So I I have more validity to talk about me as an individual, so that's that me level, and then we get to the we level. I talk about, you know, we've evolved trust and relationships by now with me as well as with each other. Um, so at that level, I get to so me level we've done, and then the we as a team. I talk about, all right, it's time to have real adult conversations now. And I want you to bring in something that's really poignant to you as a human being. So something that means something to you that has a story that talks to who Yoka is, who Prina is, and people will bring in random things, you know, like um, I don't know, let's say my favorite pen or whatever, and there'll be a story behind that, or you know, this this this stress ball of a teddy bear that I have near my desk because I'm always stressed or whatever. So then we get we get to understand each other a little bit more, and then with that session, the other thing I highly recommend, and I'll definitely link to that podcast where I outline the whole session that I run, is uh yoka, I ask every single person beforehand to consider in relation to that whole executive team, two things that you are doing wonderfully that you are really helping our team with, and two things that you need to stop doing that is holding our team back. And this is the no bullshit conversation now. And we take we take emotions off, it has to be factual and it has to be respectful still. And the other thing, you know, as a facilitator, we have a lot of control and power, which is wonderful. So the intention of the feedback is we as a team, but then with that us concept of the whole organization, that's amazing. Because often at that executive level, yoker, sometimes the egos get really fucking big and it's all about me. No, it's not, and that's the bubble that we need to burst. But that's not in one session, it takes time because it takes trust, and you know, as facilitators, I know what you do, and I've seen the way you do it. You really have to gauge, you really have to see who's in, who's not. It's quite the fine art, isn't it, to read people in that manner, and you can't just fix a team overnight in that respect.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

And that's where um when they say two things that they need to stop doing, that can be a behavior or it's an action, it's not criticizing the person. So, should they get into criticizing each other, then it's about you as facilitator reframing that okay. You're saying that, what can they do about it? Because what we tend to do is we tend to just criticize and criticize people, but then we don't tell them how they can fix it or what they can do about it. It's like what was the solution? Don't just make this person feel bad. Yes, how can they change it? Yes, even in my own marriage, I'm dead of my husband if we find it, you know. I ask and I say sorry, I say, okay, but how can I fix this? What can I do about it? Tell me what I can do better, right? You know, and then there's actions, it's not just oh, you've heard me, it's like it wasn't my intention, but how how do we go beyond this and how do we prevent this?

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yes, in the future with a solution that is suitable for me because my style is really different to yours, and that other person, another person. So let's say that and there has been some personal stuff that has been mentioned in some of these sessions, yoka. So the personal stuff could be you always talk over me. I feel that's because I'm a woman and you you don't respect me. Whoa, that's loaded, yeah. So then me as a facilitator, okay, so you you feel that you're not heard or your voice is not represented in decision making. Is that what it is? Yes, no, whatever. Therefore, what do you need? And it's talking about that need because when when there's conflict, or anytime there's conflict or toxicity of any sort, it's because whatever parties, however many people are involved, needs have not been met. So we need to articulate those needs which haven't been met. But as humans, surface level is often anger and resentment, yeah, and then beneath it is oh actually need to go deeper, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

And what often happens, I think, when you're actually asking them those questions is it can trigger their fight and flight response. So the person possibly just switches off. So the fact that you are facilitating kind of the conversation, summarizing, mirroring, reframing. Um does it get captured somewhere, does it get written somewhere, or or do they put it on post-its or do they write on a flip chart? Yeah, okay. Something can be done with it.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Accountability. Hello, yoga, yes. So yes, uh I scribe, I write a report at the end as well, and then there's accountability ongoing, you know? Yeah, because you know, you're you've talked about it as well. Behavior change does not happen overnight. I am who I am, you are who you are. That's it. But oh, yoga's giving me feedback and I have hurt her feelings, so I do need to do something about it because I value her, you know? So it takes time, and we are who we are, and yeah, it's difficult to change, let's be honest.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

So, and sometimes there's so much that um, so let's say I don't know how many people have been in that group. If they're hearing a lot of feedback on what they need to change, they're not gonna be able to do all of it overnight. So it's like chunking it, and that's always where your coaching side comes in with the work to say, what are you gonna do after the session? Like picking one thing, like starting with one thing, and then if you're going on a long journey with them, then um you could always, like you said, you have that report, so they you could always feed that back to them in the next session or give it to them as a handout to say from this list, tick off what have you worked on, what is the next thing, or is there something else that has come up? So you're actually helping them to focus on what can their goal be. Yeah, I I always do that with um coaching clients. They do like this whole journaling process, um, where it's I know you have like a journaling book that you even sell, but it's like guiding people with the questions, you see.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Those sessions have a big cognitive load to them as well, Yoka, because we're having lots, lots constant conversations. So, yes, that reporting at the end is really important to have the whole list of stuff as well. Okay, I have one final question for you. If I was to hand you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace? Yoko Van Damme, tell me.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

So, um, with a magic wand, I would inject all the leaders a dose of empathy so that they could really feel with their teams and see what they're experiencing and really like have better relations and rapport. For teams and leaders, I would give them an extra set of ears so that they could listen better and really give them that calm and that ability to really listen very well and not just listen to the words, but also to what the person's saying, what they're not saying, um, those micro expressions. So it's like really, I would give people that extra set of ears to listen, but to listen wider and to be more present. So, so like listening to people so they can pivot and actually adapt.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

And for our audience, Yoke, I'll put your details in the show notes, and you're being very kind and offering a discount to a first few members. So, tune in, definitely check out the show notes. And I love what you said about empathy, extra ears, and I don't know what it's called. Is it extra sensory perception? There's something there, isn't there, where you completely read the rune, you are present and you are in flow. Yoka, I cannot thank you enough for this really fascinating conversation. Until the next time. It was excellent. Thank you so much. Sign up to my newsletter, which is detailed in the show notes if you stand against crappy cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams. And I'll see you in the next episode.