173. Legacy, Energy & Letting Go: What It Really Takes to Lead Meaningfully with Digby Scott and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_02 0:03

This podcast is for people who know that the workplace can and should be better and are ready to do something about it. You will learn practical ways to change organizational cultures and human behaviour without buzzwords, without box ticking, without performative leadership. I am the boss of Prena Shark Consulting, working with executives, leaders and teams to create work cultures and environments that actually work for people. I am Prina Shark. I specialise in organizational culture change and human behaviour change. I am all about making work better with people who give a damn. So if you think I can help, contact me via LinkedIn. I am here to help you to find decent ways to change the workplace. Let's do this.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast. And this is a podcast for my guest, Digby Scott's podcast, which is called Dig Deeper. We're sharing the love. We're cross-pollinating here, Digby. Hello, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Nice to see you, Prince. Yep, I'm good. I'm excited. I love this idea of let's get two podcasts in one.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

Two birds, one stone, and all that, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Got it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

Now, Digby, I'm I'm actually very, very genuinely excited to speak with you because you come, you come highly recommended by someone who I highly respect. Um so if I may share our connection. So long, long ago, I worked with an amazing manager who completely changed my career. I will I will stay that to this day. And I hold on to him like he is a mentor of mine, Mr. James Miller, who I understand he used to work with years and years and years ago when you were in Perth.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

We had a business together uh called the Catalyst Group. There were three of us. So James, Jesse Lamond, and me. And I think you're right about James. He just has this sort of still wisdom that I, you know, is is infectious to be around and you know, not in a really charismatic, like in-your-face way, but in this kind of really grounded, yeah, pretty quiet way. And I remember the the questions he would ask, he would he would just stop you in your tracks. What what do you reckon it was about James that you say he was this incredible manager? What do you reckon he did for you?

SPEAKER_04 2:19

Oh so much. So he got me to think bigger by asking those questions. It wouldn't be just the why question, he'd sit, he'd ponder, then he'd just expand, you know, from a questioning perspective. He's brilliant on a podcast, is he not? Uh, because he's such a big, big thinker. And then the other thing is well, beyond work, I'll be very honest, he opened me up to practical philosophy. So back in the day, when he was my manager, he was going to the school of philosophy in Western Australia. I was like, what is this stuff? I need a little bit more in my life. Uh Digby, I've studied sociology and social psychology, so I'm just constantly always learning and just observing society in the way of the workplace. And James went to this thing called the School of Philosophy. So I became a student. So I was a student, I would have to say, Digby, for years and years and years. And as a human, I have developed and learned so much from that. And that's thanks to the gift of James.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Yeah, he's also not afraid to go his own way, right? So the School of Philosophy, I mean, that's not kind of like your MBA. No, it should be. Uh, they used to have a program here at Curtin University uh in Perth called the Masters of Leadership and Management, and included papers on philosophy. Uh-huh. And I think that we need more of that in our thinking. It's interesting. My son, who, my youngest son, he's 19, he's doing second year university in Dunedin, attago university, and he is doing his degree in neuroscience and philosophy. He's kind of doing this kind of hybrid y thing. I said, Why are you doing that? Come on. Why why those kind of angles? And he goes, Well, they're both trying to answer the same question from different angles.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

That's like I love that.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

That is wise for a 19-year-old, right?

SPEAKER_04 4:06

Come on, we need him on our podcast.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Has he been known for us? He'd be good. No, yeah, but James has, right? So um, we'll put a link in the show notes to James's uh conversation with me. And um, yeah, deep thinker about what it makes to make a workplace meaningful, right? So lovely connection to your work. So he's both of our work.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

You know, we're we're we're both interested also in this idea of legacy and impact and what it takes to create that. And interesting, you let off with James as you know, you think about the impact that he's had on you. This was would be what 20 years ago, something like that. Yeah now you still speak of him like you know, it was yesterday. Yeah. The the impact that it's had. So, what when we think about impact and legacy, what do we mean? Well, what what what what's the how do you define that? Because you're speaking of it.

SPEAKER_04 4:59

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

How do you define that?

SPEAKER_04 5:00

I love this. I love this. Okay. So I have a whole chapter on it in my book, which is called Make Work Meaningful, How to Create a Culture That Lives A Legacy. Now, D B, we are very much taught that when you go into a workplace, you've got your vision, you've got your mission, you've got your values, you've got your performance and development plan. It's the system that we have. But then one of the things that I've really seen, and I don't know if you come across this a lot as well, is I'm working with executives often at the apex of their game, of their career. And there's something missing from a heart perspective, generally speaking, not with everyone, but with the ones I've really seen. I've tried to tap into this thing. What is it that's missing? Like, yeah, you've achieved all of your successes, you've achieved brilliant, brilliant things, but there's a bar, you know? There's still something missing, that that intangible thing that's missing. So that's what I'm trying to tap into. So the first section of my book actually focuses on legacy and the legacy that you want to leave in the workplace. And now when I talk about this, when I wrote about this as well, you know, I've briefed a million people when you write a book, it's like, oh, I was all in on this. The word legacy really makes people panic, thinking, but I'm not at the end of my career yet. I'm not dead yet. To which I say, Well, can we just reframe that whole thinking as a consideration? You can leave a legacy every frigging day. If you're a graduate, if you're a leader, if you're an executive, you know, if you're a change manager, whatever you are, you do you, but what is that you in terms of the legacy that you want to leave? It could be a legacy for this project, it could be a legacy for this team. I spoke at um an event, I did a keynote speech uh last week, in fact, it was. And I, you know, I did this legacy activity with the audience. It was a bit interactive. And people had different responses. So all within the same industry, okay. One person said, I want to leave a good succession plan for whoever takes over this work that I take great pride in. Another person said, I want to make this industry even better. And then another person said, I want to do stuff for my organizational culture, which will leave it better than when I started. So every single one of us has a different driver beyond your vision, mission, values, blah, blah, blah, blah. We can copy and paste them to most organizations, I would say. But that legacy thing and the thing that's you, that's the agency that you do have. So what is it that you have?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Why does it matter? Like, why do we even need to think about the idea of legacy? Because I think mission, purpose, values, etc. Yes, get that. Why do we need to even bother? Because I I the uh maybe another way of asking the question is I love this. Is how do you how do your decisions change day to day when you're thinking about lasting impact, when you're thinking about legacy versus if you don't have that?

SPEAKER_04 7:57

Okay, well, uh, let me answer why does it matter? So, spoiler alert, we are gonna be working for a long, long, long, long, long time yet, are we not? So we can be that robot and just you know, play the system, or we can create the system ourselves. That's one thing. And then the other aspect of your question was remind me, why does it work?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Well, it's isn't how how do your decisions change day to day if you're thinking about the longer-term impact of what you're doing?

SPEAKER_04 8:29

Okay, so if you think about that, uh, the leader who spoke at the conference I was at last week, who says, I want, you know, to create a beautiful succession plan that leaves my work in good hands, his decision making would be completely along those lines. Like, okay, so if I make this decision, it will either enable or disable Digby to be my successor or to do the right stuff. You know, so I call it your North Star, you know, some people call it your purpose, that kind of thing. But purpose, I think, has been overdone. Thank you, Simon Sinek. Uh I think legacy is it's this big scary thing, which can change throughout our phases of careers, Digby. So, you know, when I was a baby grad, my legacy would have been to uh gosh, learn and give back. So it's about serving. Um my legacy now that I've learned a heap of stuff, you know, the best of stuff, is to make work better for everybody. So it evolves as we evolve as humans, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

I like that. You know, there's a term in sport, which is you go where you look. And you know, it's like I surf and if I'm my when I wherever I turn my head to look is where my body will follow. So if I'm looking at the part of the way that's gonna smash me, I'll probably go there. But if I'm looking at the part of the way that I can ride uh without getting nailed, then I'm more likely to make it. And there's something I love about this idea of your looking at impact, at the last impact, and you're looking actually, this is what matters, then I reckon you make decisions that um are in service of that, as opposed to in service of say short-term uh looking good or being the hero or whatever it might be. So I think there's something about to me that's a forcing function about where you decide to put your attention.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Definitely so. I I definitely see so you know, going back to the executives that I talk about who who are or were feeling that funk, it's because they hadn't worked on that thing yet compared to the executives who are happier, you know, uh at the stage of their career that they're in. They've worked on their stuff and they've worked on, okay, well, I don't need necessarily need to be the CFO. However, if I do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, this is what's going to fulfill me. Yeah. And as a result, perhaps you get to, you know, the heights of your career. Maybe when maybe we reverse this all together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yeah, maybe. I like that. You know, I'm I'm at a stage in my career where I'm comfortable with my how I show up day to day. And, you know, I know I'm good at what I do. And I reckon a lot of people listening will be in this boat. It's like, yeah, no, I've got my, you know, my technical chops down and I know how to do what I do. Yes. And it's like the question for what and over what time period. Yeah, I'm starting to ask more questions like that. So it's it's more moments like I had a moment years ago and where I was a cost is too strong a word, but I was in Melbourne, uh, and this lady came up to me on the street and she said, Digby Scott, thanks for being amazing 25 years ago. What is she what is the context for this? My mind's going everywhere. And she said, I know you were you were a trainer for me on this graduate training course I was a participant on. And you really rocked my world in terms of you open up my world to what's possible. There was in, I was an accountant, and uh, and she goes, and now I'm a partner of this firm, and you know, I've made this my career, and it was you gave me a great start. And there was that lovely long sort of you know ripple effect over 25 years that I had no idea, right? And and it's funny because there's kind of like a paradox, you might not even know what your impact is. No, but you you need, I think it's important to have an intent to have it because otherwise, yeah, I think it like you say, it becomes a little hollow. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I'm doing this stuff, but for what? You know, and you know, I love the idea of plant a seed for a tree that you'll never sit under. Yeah, and if you can, if you can live in that way, I think there's something about well, you focus on nurturing, you focus on building capability, you don't focus on just fighting fires the whole time. You know, there's something about that, which I think I think this at the end of the day, humans want that. Oh, completely. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:03

And uh, you know, it it's shifting from ambition to meaning. We we are all ambitious creatures, absolutely. So at certain parts of our career, I am sure, right? But that can only get us so far. Oh, we have to do this with people, it's a collective thing, it's not a solo thing as well. So, in terms of defining your legacy goal, I've I've got a bit of an acronym. So the longevity aspect of it, how will my decisions contribute to the lasting positive impact of what I'm doing? And then the E, so L E, E, essence stands for, or E stands for essence. How can I ensure my leadership reflects my authentic self? And then G, genuine. How are my intentions and decisions consistently genuine? That's your check. And then A, awareness. How does my understanding of time's finite nature shape my choices? C, consequences. What are the long-term consequences of my decisions? Okay, and then why yearning. What do I yearn to transform? And that's the thing that people haven't been challenged with or questioned because often, I mean, I've got the case study who I won't tell you who it's about, it's a bad case study, but it's a really good, bad case study, right? This person was recruited uh to bring about efficiencies within the workplace, uh, and they did so, but they didn't consider the bigger picture, and then they got the worst reputation ever within the workplace. So we do this because someone else has told us to, rather than being the James, critically thinking, why, what, well, how can I help with this? What would my version of this be? Right? Rather than being that puppet. So I ask people, are you the driver of your career or the passenger? Two different things there.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes you've got to be the passenger. Yes, you've got to allow things to unfold, right? And you can't necessarily control it all. But if you're only the passenger, then you are really subject to the forces at play.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Yeah, yeah. I like that. I love your acronym. That's really cool. That's thank you. They they're all they all tap a different part of wisdom. Yeah, it's there's nothing small about any of those letters.

SPEAKER_04 15:15

Uh, they're huge, huge questions. Uh, I've got a question for you. So uh um I've been listening to your podcast, and one of the things you talk about is energy and energy management, right? So I I talk about this at length in my workshops, and initially it sounds a bit woo-woo, you know, to some people because they're still not into this kind of talking or this kind of consideration of managing your energy. Um, what is energy management to you? I I won't tell you what my perception is.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

So let's get both big picture and practical. So Einstein said, you know, uh, energy is all there is, there is nothing else. Paraphrasing. And he's right. I mean, everything is energy. Yeah. And so, okay, well, let's not work against that. Let's work with that. If everything is energy, well, why don't we tap it? But that's the big picture stuff. The practical stuff is are you going to be more effective when you're energized or when you're depleted? I mean, it's a pretty obvious answer, right? And so paying attention to energy is fundamental, particularly when you're in a leadership role, because people are looking, you're disproportionately, your words have weight, yes, and therefore your energy has weight. You know, I I know for me that when I'm not necessarily fizzing with extroversion, but I'm bringing a certain sort of presence that I just know that it's going to carry more in the conversations I have, the the ripple effect that happens as a result. And so if I focus, I think it's the guts of it, if I focus on managing my energy as a priority as opposed to managing my time, um, then I am more likely to be able to create what I want to create in the world. You know, today, for example, so I had two meetings with potential new organizational clients today, both in person, require me to show up, look good, um, be present, have a half intelligent conversation. Well, a very intelligent conversation. And and I prepared for that. So I didn't rush around beforehand trying to get a million things done.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

I I gave myself some space. I arrived 10, 15 minutes early before, found a good place to sit, and we met in a hotel lobby for the first one. And I just, you know, that does sound hippie, but got in the zone, right? Just kind of presence and it's it's it's those little practices that I think allow us to be present, bring the energy that's required. Because when we have energy, another I've used the word presence a few times, Parina, you know, so it's like I think they are interchangeable. When you're present, then you can respond more adeptly to what happens in the conversation. So it's just all about that. That's what I when I think of energy, that's what I think about.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

Now I like it.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

I'm thinking purple flowing robes and you know, let's go om in a circle and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 18:18

No, no. Although an om is a good thing as well. It's yeah, that's true, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

But but and now, now that you you've answered, you've answered this question in a beautiful way. I feel as a facilitator or as a consultant, right? So now if we bring ourselves into the workplace, so you've talked about uh being prepared for that conversation, giving myself some space. I got in the zone, I have little practices. If I'm a manager within the workplace, I was saying, yeah, yeah, blah to all of this, because of the fact that my diary is back to back to back to back to back with those meetings, meetings, meetings. You can say all of this, but what about me? How do we make this practical for people who are within the workplace who are battling with their diaries or battling with people above them and trying to advocate for people beneath them as well? You know, that that meet in the middle of the sandwich.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

So, how do you do that? I reckon there's two things you want to practice. One is know your outcome.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

So for every interaction, be really clear on what your outcome might and define that as a thing you want to create, something that's positive, rather than I don't want this bad thing to happen. Well, okay, what's the opposite of that? So, what what's the thing I want to have happen? I want them to agree with me. I want to hear their perspective, I want to get my point across, whatever it might be, in a way that they hear me. So define your outcome. So that's number one. Number two, as I yeah, the back to back to back. There's something about creating the tiniest circuit breaker between those things. So I do a thing called the door framing exercise. Now, when you're in a physical office location, it might be physically walking through the door into your next meeting. If you're in a virtual environment, it's the the door into the portal of Teams or Zoom or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

And it's before you go into that room, either physically or virtually, have an intent for how do I want to be and what is my outcome. So be clear on I want to be calm, I want to be focused. And your outcome might be whatever I said, you know, the outcome could be. Be defined on that. And as you walk through the door, just say that to yourself. Yes. I want, I want to be heard or I want to hear them, and I'm going to be present. Go. And I think it's just those, what did that take me? Five seconds to say. Nothing. Yeah. If you have that discipline, if you have that practice, then you can do eight back to backs. You might be whacked by the end of it, but you will have given yourself the best chance of getting the outcome you want and staying present because you know what you want rather than just the swirling around. So there are a couple of really practical things. I mean, I'd love to say don't have back-to-backs, but the reality is can it happens.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

In an ideal world, absolutely so.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Do you want to build on that? What what what do you think what do you see works?

SPEAKER_04 21:07

Well, that for myself, I I was the manager, which is why I'm asking. So I managed many a HR team, stressy teams, and you know, it's it's quite firefighting as well. Uh, so for myself, I used to do things like I had I had to have a lunch break and get the hell out first off and walk.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Energy management right there.

SPEAKER_04 21:26

Right? Energy management one and one. I need to get the hell out and just get fresh air during my lunch break and just know people at that time. Like I didn't want to talk with anyone because I knew my whole day would be talking, right? Uh so I needed some thinking time and just some nature time. The other thing I used to do as well is I had a post post it, simple post it, with uh I just did uh drew it, uh a symbol of a pause button just to remind me. And that just took seconds, right? In between meetings, I'd come back to my desk. Look at that, I was like, okay, Prino. The other thing that's always my friend is drinking lots because when someone's talking, I can't say you're talking about right. This one, yep. Someone's talking and I'm drinking, so I can shush and not, you know, interject as well, like you're just doing. The other big thing for me as well is because I have so many ideas and I can get very excited, is I I will take notes. I am a note taker. That keeps me present. I love that you mentioned being present as well, you know, managing my energy in that respect. I had to be present for all of those conversations because they were really frigging important conversations. I couldn't drop the ball either. Um, pen and paper, my friends, for my brain. So I guess for each one of us, it's working out what energizes you, what depletes you. And ideally trying not to rely on caffeine too much. That's the other thing. I I cut out all coffee, tea, everything, because that was stimulating me.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

I was gonna say, how did that make a difference?

SPEAKER_04 22:59

I was okay. Oh, so uh I was a tea drinker, so strong Indian chai was my thing, and I had to have it, otherwise, I was just limp and just a zombie. But I realized I was reliant on it, it was a stimulant for me. So when I went off it, I had withdrawal symptoms like I could not believe. So just grumpiness in the morning, uh, just you know, foggy, foggy headedness, that kind of stuff. But then I found another thing. So herbal teas are my thing now, or water is my thing now, right? So I've got another thing. But what that enabled me to do is to get back to this energy source level, my own, rather than the stimulants one.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Like it.

SPEAKER_04 23:40

Because I found in the afternoon, oh, I would just have a cuppa and then I'd have a cup of tea or whatever, but I'd be buzzing at night, you know, and that would just make me crappy for the morning after because I won't sleep well. So I've seen a lot of people either rely on, you know, caffeine or sugar a lot as well, those sugar highs in the afternoon. So, you know, I'm really getting impractical here, but yeah, I tried not to. Uh, an apple a day was my thing and still is my thing. Like that's my sugar high.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

I love that. I love that you've got such disciplined but really simple practices. It's doable. Another one, um, you know, I love how I think Outlook does this. I use Google Calendar, but you know, the default meeting time is 25 minutes or 50 minutes rather than half an hour or 60. And just that little force space between meetings and linking to that, um, I love this saying, leave the room with nothing to do. Oh, meaning that if you can use that five or ten minutes after you're done to action any things that you have come out of that conversation, that meeting, and you can do them there and then. What it does, and I I I try and do as much as I can is it frees up mental bandwidth because I've I don't have to carry that around as a thing to do in the future. I've just done it. And it's more likely to be fresh. I can just do it then, it's easier. So that those little spaces between, you know, there's the before coming in, like okay, door framing, and then there's the after, the action taking. You can just do the smallest little thing that I think frees your head space up for whatever's coming next. And again, you can stay present. It's interesting how we've gone from the big ideas of lasting impact to this kind of minutiae, isn't it? Like, okay, how do you run your days? I don't, I don't, yeah, yeah. Well, how you run the day your days is how you run your life. So, you know, it makes sense to go here.

SPEAKER_04 25:34

Hey, that's it. Absolutely. So, because I've seen many a team rely on the leader too much. Um, and then that leader is the you know the constant person, and um, we create a codependency then as well, which is a very unhealthy codependency on the leader. Uh, and then the leader feels like they can never break or stop, you know, as well. It's just this vicious cycle. Have you come across it yourself?

SPEAKER_00 25:59

I have come at you looking at my face. So I'm I'm remembering it's a time I was national manager for a recruitment company and it's in New Zealand, and I took a break from work, it was full on, and I was I was you know the the boss, the big boss, and I I went away snowboarding for I can't remember, it was a long weekend, it was a week or something, and I thought, okay, I'm just gonna be out of contact for this whole time, right? And I did sell some at the office, like I'm going, this is where I'm gonna be. Um, but I don't want to be contacted. And I remember getting to the top of one of the chair lists, and the lifty came out, you know, and they're kind of like they got their cabins there. He said, Oh, are you Digby Scott? I'm like, uh, yeah. Because oh a message for you. Um, can you go and call uh the office immediately so there's an emergency and my my heart sank into my gut. So it's just like how did they track me down? How they even know who I was in the lift, right? So uh but they tracked me down, and I remember that feeling of just really resenting myself for getting myself in this position where I was the one that they needed to solve a problem. How the hell did I get there? And I it really put a dampener on the whole holiday, you know, as you can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Um, and I just felt the weight of the world come down on me again, you know, trying to get away from it. But at the end of the day, you know, I had some choices. I, you know, I could have set things up really differently. I could have been really clear on delegations. This is your responsibility, your delegation, you know, whatever happens, I'll back you, that kind of thing. I didn't do that. I I was woolly about that and I didn't create any sense of clarity about that thing. So it's like, well, DB's the guy who's going to solve this. And I, you know, at the end of the day, there's a little bit of ego at play, I reckon, looking looking at it from uh you know from a distance now. But I suspect there's a lot of people who are in similar situations, they become the go-to. But tell me, tell me what you see in leaders that stops us from being able to be the one who's not, you know, what I'm trying to say. The one when we get we get too dependent on a leader, yeah. What is happening there that creates that, do you think?

SPEAKER_04 28:30

So much. Okay, okay. Where do we begin? So, okay, when you were talking, I had an aha moment, service as you know, servant leadership, that kind of stuff. I think it it's a double-edged sword.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

Depending on how how you define service. So you you were, you know, your example that was servant leadership at its worst. You were there on holidays. Thanks, you're on holiday, still serving the company. Good one there, you know. Versus servant leadership of you know, I know my boundaries, the healthy aspect of working. Um, so there's that as an aspect. Then the other thing as well, definitely an ego thing, and I've been there, done that myself as well, especially when I was climbing the ladder, more so like, yes, you know, everyone wants to come to me. You you feel a great sense of inflated ego, but then you come back to a whole heap of work, which is really frigging, frigging dangerous for you and you know can lead to burnout and has for many a person as well. But from a systemic perspective, organizations are working in a very, very lean, lean, lean manner. So we've we've we've only got the one Digby and we've only got the one prena. Okay, so that's on you now, which it's a bit dangerous from a risk management perspective of an organization as well, if we're relying just on these people, because if these people get knocked over by a bus, then good luck, mate. You know, all of this tacit knowledge that's in our head is just gonna go. So then the other thing I started to do, because I was that leader myself as well, was um to try and upskill my team. And I'm very mindful that you know, people are at different capability levels, all of that kind of stuff. So baby steps in that respect as well. So I tried to be more solutions focused with my people, like, yeah, hey church, you know, come to me with a problem, and they will come to me with every friggin' problem. Say, stop, stop, come to me with a problem now. Tell me why it's a problem, what are the risks about this? Uh, what are the consequences of this? Uh what are your ideas on how to address this? And are there any budgetary implications as well? So as soon as I started to push back to my team to say, yeah, come to me with an issue, but think about it first. And let's have a different conversation. Things completely changed. And then I wasn't that bottleneck, Digby. I wasn't that, you know, the bottleneck of, oh God, let me have a think about this and sit on it for a week or two weeks while you know this fire is burning, for example, work fire. Um instead, that person had the idea anyway. I mean, you talked about it uh before. People know the answers often, you know, you know it within yourselves. So why not just use our people in that respect anyway and just listen to them? But give them the kind of tools and give them the permission to say, hey, Prina, I actually think we messed up here, but this is a better way of doing it, and this is how much it's gonna cost. May I please have your approval? Boom.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Yeah, yeah. And even with the cost thing, I mean, at some point you can go, well, yeah, depending on your context, the organization you're in, you know, you've got delegation to, you know, anything spend on X thousand dollars or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

It's kind of as you're talking. So one is you said upskill one team, which I totally agree with, you know, that's the gateway to everything. What about if you could upskill your team to upskill themselves? As in uh you help them to be uh set up a learning system that you don't even need to drive. You know, you're not the go-to for the the coaching either. They can coach each other. And it reminds me of a yes, an article from was it Linda Hill she wrote in Harvard Business a long time ago called Becoming the Boss.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Talked about these four myths of being a manager, and one of them uh was that there's this myth that the the key relationship that a manager needs to be focused on is the one-on-one relationship between them and each of their team members.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

And she said that's a myth. But we need to focus is on cultivating relationships between team members, and so they become this sort of hyper-resilient, anti-fragile group that becomes a learning like a learning microcosm of itself, you know, and it's it's rather than you being the one who's the coach. And I thought that's cool. You know, there's leverage in that. So this idea of um your your primary focus should be on creating a learning system rather than you know, you being the learning catalyst or the learning coach. So that was one thing that came up, and the other one is what gets in the way. I reckon we reward heroic leadership.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Oh, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Don't we don't don't we we give out awards to you know most effective leader? Or I mean I'm going to some awards night in Auckland in a couple of weeks' time where it's gonna be all these awards given. And I'm like, I'm gonna be listening for the story about the award because if it's about how amazing this individual is for everything they their expertise or whatever, I think uh that's reinforcing a stereotype. But what if it's hey, this person was instrumental in creating the conditions for their team to do incredible work? Yeah, now that's a different story, and I think we want to reward teams more than we reward individuals, yes, and there's a different quality of thinking and discipline that goes with that. By the way, you can probably hear a cat in the background, but the cat agrees, the cat's agreeing.

SPEAKER_04 34:10

Cats agree, exactly. Wise cat. This is this is great. So create a learning catalyst for the team. I've got an example. So when I was working in HR with one uh generalist HR team, it was big, there was all sorts of stuff happening constantly, and I couldn't have one-to-one with everyone regularly, but my people really needed me. So Monday morning we'd have a work in progress meeting, we'd bash out what we're working on, what we're finding really difficult, what we need help with, anything that they need help from me, and anything that we need to report to the top before you know things hit the fan. But because of that conversation, it was, you know, time constraints are a really good thing as well. So, okay, team, let's bang this out. What's happening? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We all got into the cadence of it. Then you would see John helping Chris out and Chris helping Amy out and say, hey, we actually did that in my other organization. Well, I actually don't have capacity this morning. So let me pick that up for you. So rather than me being that conduit for everything getting done, they were just getting shit done themselves. That was something else, you know. But that that that was a result of them being open and honest and vulnerable and really sharing what they needed help with, and me breaking the culture off that achievement focus of what are we winning? What are we doing? And clapping for, you know, the highest achieving person.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

That's a really good one. What do you reckon it takes for a leader to get out of their own way in terms of their ego and need to be seen to be driving results or looking good? Because I see this all the time. It's like, well, I need to be the one who's in the trenches with them. And I I tend to I get it, but I I reckon there's a big limitation with that as well. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Yeah, I I would say yes and no. No, absolutely be there for your people, advocate for your people. But if you've got brilliant people who are working for you, why not just trust them and let them do the thing? And and you step back. So stepping back as well, you know, from a leadership perspective, it we none of us have been trained in, you know, taking our foot off the leadership pedal. That's just anti-anything, leadership development, generally speaking. So for you to inform someone of that, you know, one of the things I talk about is the golden rule of working. Ideally, the golden rule of working is you only work, in my opinion, uh, if you're a leader, at 70% capacity. Because 30%, yeah, you know, you're going to be attending to the things that are hitting the fan. When I say that to leaders, they're like, Yeah, dream on Prina. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. It's like, well, imagine if you did have that 30% free, so you could attend to those fires, you could have that critical conversation, or you could go and celebrate someone's, you know, brilliant hard work for what they haven't achieved yet, but you're motivating them to do it now. So I think it's really revisiting the way we work. Um, and uh who is it? Malcolm Gladwell. Is it Malcolm? No, it's Seth uh I've got his book Seth Godin. Seth Godin, Seth Godin. He he talks about the fact that work is not working. So if we really look at that fact and look at it from our own individual perspectives, why don't we look at what isn't working for us right now? And then try and just redo the system in that respect. That's an option.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Yeah, I think it's you know, I a lot hear a lot of people talk about, you know, I've been in meetings all day. When am I going to get my real work done? Yeah. And there's something about redefining work. And if work can also involve space to reflect, to respond, to stand back and see the system, not just the detail, then you know, that's there's something really powerful about that. But I think we have some cultural issues around that because to redefine work, maybe I can, but if the culture I'm in doesn't value that sort of work, yes, then it's going to be pretty hard for me to do it. So it starts from the top because our culture gets set from the top. So to be able to go give permission explicitly for reflection time. It's actually with one of the meetings I had today. Yeah. We're just talking about that. We tried to roll out this program where we were getting leaders to be coaches, etc., etc. But then we went, yeah, but all the people we trained were already at 100% capacity, they had no chance to do any of this. So it's got to be set from the top. Okay, you you have capacity to do this. This is now part of your job description, by the way. Cattail in the all good, all good.

SPEAKER_04 38:46

Well, I I have something that I'm trying to do, which I have been doing for a while now. So I applied this myself. Self-coaching, okay. Friday afternoon, 30 minutes. I have a journal now. So I'll put links into the show notes. So I've got a freebie if you want to do a freebie, or I've got a journal because I like writing. So I do this every week, Friday afternoon. What am I learning this week? Dump it down. How am I right now? How has my week been? Dump it down. What were my wins this week and what has felt like success? We tend to jump away from success and our wins because we're onto the next thing, onto the next thing. And that, you know, it was completely me and my corporate days. We also have crap in the week. So, what were my challenges and triggers this week? And what can I do to mitigate them? Hello. This is the mirror mirror on the wall, just for five minutes, even.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 39:37

But then, what do I want to be held accountable for next week? And then that goes into my to-do list. But I can really bullshit myself, Digby. I can say, yes, everything is great, but often it's not, right? So digging deeper. Do you like that? Digging deeper. What needs planning? What important things have now action steps attached to them? Do I need help? Do I need to delegate? Who do I need to engage with to make this happen? What's stopping me? How am I going to celebrate what uh once I achieve what I need to? Half an hour.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

That's great.

SPEAKER_04 40:11

You know, we don't need someone's we don't need someone's permission, really.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

No, that's great. A little practice. What do you reckon if you had to pick one or two of those questions as the go-tos that made the biggest difference? What would you say they are?

SPEAKER_04 40:24

Oh my gosh. For me personally, what were my wins this week and what has felt like success? I'm I'm quite speedy, I just move on. I need to stop. That helps me to stop. And then the last one, what actually needs planning? What important things have no action steps attached to them? That's a prina be accountable question, or anyone who's doing this be accountable question.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

That is, I love, I've never heard that question before. Like what important things have no action steps attached to them? That's great because otherwise it's just an intention rather than an action. That's really cool. I love that one.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Yeah, awesome.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

So it can be done. Yeah. Is there anything in this brilliant conversation? We've gone here, there, and everywhere, that we may have missed in your opinion, Digby.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Probably.

SPEAKER_04 41:09

We'll have to come back. We'll have to come back on each other's podcast.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

There's so much to talk about, but I, you know, I'm a big believer in like actually, here's some nuggets of wisdom, folks, to listen to and to chew on. So why don't we leave it there?

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

And so, how do we find each other? How do people find you, Prina?

SPEAKER_04 41:27

Yep. Uh, I'm on LinkedIn. Prina Shah is my name. Uh, that's I'd say that LinkedIn is my office and Instagram is my playground. So you'll probably see behind the scenes stuff there and lots of food stuff, by the way. I like food. Um, so yeah, if you want to get to know personal me, that's Instagram, prina.sha, LinkedIn, professional me. You'll see the professional version on there. That's awesome. Yeah, otherwise, my website is prenashar.com. Easy as that. And digby, how about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Well, pretty simple. Digby Scott.com is where I you can see what I'm up to. Yeah. LinkedIn is I like the way you say that's your kind of an office. I would say that I blend the two because a lot of my messages around life by design as well as lasting impact work. And so I'm pretty much sharing anything I'm up to. Uh well, not everything, but all the good things that are helpful on LinkedIn. So you can find me there, Digby Scott. And yeah, I tend not to do the insta thing, I just tend to keep it simple. Yeah, yeah, it works for me. Yeah, and I'll put a few things in the show notes from what I've been writing. Writing and just picked up on here. So I've got this little article that could be useful around you know, forget time management, master these disciplines instead, which is all about energy management and intention management and attention management. So that could be a good little kind of framework for people as well. Awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 42:51

Perfect. Thank you for entertaining my thoughts. It's been such a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

It's been great. See you soon.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

All details about this episode are in the show notes. If you like this episode, I'd like you to take a moment and think about at least two people who might enjoy it. And please share the episode details with them too. Also, don't forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and on Instagram. I am freena.jar. See you there too.