177. Small Towns, Big Leadership Challenges with Simone Pickering and Prina Shah

SPEAKER_02 0:03

This podcast is for people who know that the workplace can and should be better and are ready to do something about it. You will learn practical ways to change organizational cultures and human behaviour without passwords, without box sticking, without performative leadership. I am the boss of Freena Shark Consulting, working with executives, leaders, and teams to create work cultures and environments that actually work for people. I am Freenoshark. I specialise in organizational culture change and human behavior change. I am all about making work better with people who give a damn. So if you think I can help, contact me via LinkedIn. I am here to help you to find decent ways to change the workplace. Let's do this. Hello and welcome back to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast with your host, me, Trina Shah. And I am bringing back my friend all the way from Kalgooli on a hot 42-degree day, Miss Simone Pickering. I hope you're staying cool. Uh trying to. That's both systems.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

They're cramped up. After this, I'll be jumping in the pool. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Cool down. Now, Simone, you are a Rippy and regular conversationalist on this podcast. I love having you as a guest. I've spoken to you about all sorts of stuff. And I want to talk to you today about working ringly or working in small towns and the capability of leaders, the capability of people. And we're going to riff off this one, shall we? Talk to me about capability within a small town. So talent in a small town.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Probably where we should start is talk about productivity overall. There's a massive productivity issue within Australia. And when you look at that, it comes back to employee engagement. And when you look at the Gallup stats on employee engagement, it sits between 20 and 23% for Australia. So that's less than a quarter of people turning up to work every day engaged. Which means that it's 60 something percent better they're just going through the motions. Presentees them. Yep, they're doing the bare minimum to not get sat. Okay. Yeah. And they're doing their job, but there's no sort of like, oh, I see an opportunity to make an improvement here. Those conversations aren't taking place. And then we have about 15% who are actually there to undermine the organization because they're so disgruntled and so disengaged that they're actively working against the organization. So this is directly impacting productivity in terms of the Australian economy. It needs to be addressed. And to quote, I think it was Trina Sunday at an ARI conference a couple of years ago, leadership experience dictates employee experience. So if your leadership team doesn't have the appropriate leadership capability and experience, then that's going to flow on negatively to the employee experience. Regional Development Australia Goldfields Esperance has launched this year and it goes through to the end of financial this financial year a program or an initiative called Lead Local, which is really looking at building the capability of business leaders because that is going to build economic sustainability within the region. And I'm delivering some of those workshops there. So some of the stuff that we're looking at, we're looking at, we have longer workshops, which are four hours long and then one-hour workshops. The one-hour workshops is like a bite-sized introduction to the concept. Yeah. So business leaders can understand enough to go away and engage either myself or somebody else to work further in that area. But the four-hour contracts workshops, sorry, have been this is what culture is. And if you're wanting to build culture, the people you bring into your organization are going to impact that culture. So how do we recruit so that we're adding value to the culture, not just bringing bubs on sex? So what happens in particular trade-based organizations is that somebody will be employed because they're a good tradesperson, but you're an absolute asshole to work alongside. So you're either going to end up in a position where that person, that good tradesperson, stays, but all you've got left inferior tradespeople because they're the only people that will work there beside that tradesperson because they've got no other options to go elsewhere. Gosh.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Can I step back just a few steps? So working in a small town or working regionally within, I'll give the Western Australian lens because Simone's experience is there primarily. One of the things I've heard, and this is something that you've alluded to a lot as well, is that there's a skill shortage, but there's capability issues as well, right? Yeah. At every level, would you say? Yeah, absolutely. And these stats that you've just hit us with are just shocking. So 20 to 23% productivity in Australia, 15% disempowered employees. Like these are oh alarming statistics. So this is Australia-wide. But then if we zoom into that regional area, I imagine those stats are probably even worse. And I don't think those stats have been considered from a regional perspective.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

No, so those stats are Australia-wide. Gallup has started working with local governments on the east coast of Australia, so they've been able to separate out some local government stats. Cool. Local governments are about 10 points less disengaged than the average.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Hello, regional people who are listening. Alarm bells, alarm bells. If I had some sound effects, I chuck some alarm bells in. I said more shit.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah. And so one of the questions on the Gallup survey is based around I'm proud of the work that my organization does. What does it say when local government employees are in the low percentile for engagement? Oh God.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

So there's a real disconnect as to what I do and the why I'm the clear line of sight of organizational culture and the impact that I'm making as an individual for the society that I'm living in, then.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah. So in regional local governments, there should be this really strong engagement in that area. And that was coming back, that there's quite a big disconnect there. And I found that really interesting that all these elements within the engagement survey that all point to alignment to purpose is absent.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

At a leadership level, what's missing? What's going wrong? Like, what are we missing out on from the conversation that we're seeing this data present itself?

SPEAKER_02 6:57

I'm going to answer that question. What are we missing at that leadership level? So I've worked with some regional, small town, brilliant organizations, but they have had some trouble, which is why they've brought me in. And they're good, but they want to get greater. Even better. Even better, right? So the kind of things that I've seen. So what's missing at that leadership level is an understanding and a true understanding of the employees' experience. Because I at the executive table and so far removed from the reality of the worker, then that also creates a them and us kind of mentality of oh, they're just whiny, they're just entitled, they're just wanting, we're giving, they're just not understanding. So there's a frustration from the executive, but then that's a bit patronizing. Like, come on, we're all adults. There's a misunderstanding of the psychological needs of the employee as well, right? So I have written an article, I'll tag it in the show notes for this. If I remember, if I don't email me, people. I've written an article on the concept or on the real concept of a psychological contract. Now, this was a thing in the 1970s, and it holds true even bigger today. So, Simone, I might have this as my legal contract, but that means nothing because of the fact that my psychological contract with the workplace is even stronger. And this has been heightened even more since the pandemic days because we've had this aha moment in our various lives, in our various ways. All of us have gone through some kind of introspection, I'm telling you. Over the last five, six years, haven't we? So then my relationship to my work is also different. And this is a kind of conversation that I'm having with the executives. But your people and their relationship with their work is different. Whether you're in a small town or whether you're in a metro town, whatever, you work in a metropolis or a tiny area, same issue. Our relationship to the workplace is completely different. But the missing piece there is the lack of understanding at that top level for them to actually enable their people in a different level. Yeah. Have you seen that yourself? I have. Do you think it's generational? Yes. I'm nodding my head politely. Yes, it is. Okay. And okay, without generalizing, there's a lot of baby boomers at the executive table. Yeah. Okay. So I'm gonna refer to one team that I've worked with in a small town setting. We've had people who are baby boomers, we've had people who are more my age, gen, what am I, 1979? That kind of generation. Yeah. Whatever gen I am. And there's been a clash at the executive table as well. Yeah. Where the younger people's ideas might be seen as too woke or too out there. We can't do that in a regional setting. We can't ever afford to do that. It's not even a financial thing. And so there's this battle even behind closed doors that happens. Yeah. So yes, I think it might be a generational thing, Simone. But then I think sometimes, and you've alluded this to this in our past conversations, with some other organizations, we're making money. So Freena, Shush, why should we bother? Why should I listen to you?

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Yeah. Who have done like a fair bit of research around generational differences and how we show up to the workplace and what it is that we need at different generations. And they asked the question how important do you think it is to have conversations around your career development?

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

And so Gen Z are the younger, they're the 20-year-olds in the organization. We have millennials which are 30 to 45. Gen X's are us, so up to 55-ish. And then we have Boomers. So Gen Z and Gen Y sort of sat at around 60% important to me. Like it's fairly important to me that I have some conversations around my career development. Boomers was 32%. So if your leader is a boomer, the concept of having that discussion is barely on their radar. It's foreign. It's not going to happen. So this is where all the work comes in about understanding the different generations and what it is that they need from the workforce. So if you want to stick within that boomer rhetoric and that boomer mindset in how organizations are going to be led, those people are going to be out of the workforce in nine years' time. They're going to have aged out. So if you were developing a product and bringing it to market that you knew that nobody would want in nine years, you'd reconsider your position. And so what I'm saying to leaders is reconsider the way that you're leading. The way you're currently leading is going to be obsolete in nine years. We're already at a point where almost 75% of the workforce is the younger generations, between 75%. So we're already at a point where a hell of a lot of people at work don't want that style of leadership. Maybe we need to look at updating your skills so that it can better serve the bulk of the workforce. Because that's the future of work, is adapting and giving people what it is that they actually need at work.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

And that's why this podcast is called Ways to Change Your Workplace. Really freaking need to change. Always evolve because the world is evolving. Yeah. You've hit us with some horrible stats. So if anyone wants to reach out to Simone, her details are in the show notes. And especially if you want to make a business case, look, yeah. Statistics are brilliant for a business case. Reach out to Simone. You've got the stats. Reach out to Simone, have a conversation, have a conversation at that executive level about the kind of needs that your people have. Even look at your, I guess I'm going into workforce planning now. Look at the demographic of your workplace. What generations do we have? Ask them what their frigging needs are. Hello, people. Asking, have a conversation, and then have the debate as well. And some things you might be able to cater for, some things you may well not be able to cater for. But once you explain why, people get it and then they're on board, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah. And this isn't just about hating on the older generation. It also means in nine years we're going to lose a hell of a lot of international knowledge. Yeah, organizations. What are organizations doing to ensure that that knowledge is passed down?

SPEAKER_02 13:15

And I'm moving on about this in chapter 11 of my book. I talk about effective knowledge transfer. Okay, page 155 for everybody. I think it's so important. Simone and I've been talking about this for years. Those people are not only using leaving with the knowledge that's on their job description, which I've just torn up, they're leaving with the tacit knowledge. Everything that's in their head, nothing that's been documented. This is massive. These baby boomers are very important in terms of the knowledge they have, everything that they've contributed. We need to learn and document now.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

And it's not just the knowledge, it's that deep understanding of why we're doing it. So the younger generations don't really have that luxury of understanding why. Because everything that goes on in the background about the why is done by AI or by our systems. So they're just doing it. We need to capture this is how it impacts, this is why we're doing it. We need to uh really get to that depth of knowledge. And we need to understand that the way that younger people process information has changed because of social media, it has changed because of dopamine hits from algorithms, and they've not been given the opportunity to sit off of a phone and sit with their own thoughts and be able to develop critical thinking skills. So the things that just came innately to us to be able to problem solve, those skills are missing. They've been taken away because of the we don't allow people to get bored anymore. So when we get bored, we solve the world's problems. But if we're never bored because we're scrolling through, we're never developing that skill. So as organizations, what strategies can we put in place so that we can get to the point where people are able to develop that or completely absorb what we're trying to change them, teach them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

You've just blown my mind again. So some of the things you've talked to, one of the things I'm doing next year, I can't wait for this, to bridge that knowledge gap between the generations. I'm working with one of my clients, actually in a small town, they're in a regional setting, where we've created a mentoring program. Mentoring programs for our workplace are super simple, they're affordable, it's doable. Okay. But the way that we've done this is we're mentoring across cross-generationally for the purpose of bridging those gaps, the tacit knowledge needs, and that why, the why, and being okay with being bored as well. And learning from an elder, so to speak, and absorbing their brilliance as well. That's excellent. And then with another organization, one thing I'm doing to develop their critical thinking skills. This is another regional organization. I can't wait for this one, is future thinking skills and a workshop. So looking at where we are now, but then trying to project where we might be in the future, and then creating scenarios the good, the bad, and the ugly. And we all have data, we've all got stats. There's the Australian Bureau of Statistics, we've got lag data, we've got economic idea, we've got so much information at our hands. So we're not looking back to learn from the back, but we're not looking forward to prepare for our future as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah, yeah. And the technology is moving so fast, we've been so reactionary.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Oh my god, are we just not? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Absolutely. And sometimes we just need to pause and just breathe and really be okay with being bored and having a mundane conversation about what is now, yeah, what happened then, and what are we going to do in the future as a result, and how is the world changing and how are we going to change with it and alongside it, and how we're going to impact the world in a beautiful way as well, right? Yeah. I think those conversations still have not been considered at that deeper, proper level.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah. And we all know that AI is going to be a big part of how organizations change.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

What is never going away are those human skills. Yeah. Yeah. And we're losing them. Yeah. And part of it's around the language calling us soft skills.

unknown 17:23

Really?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Like the soft skills are bloody hard. Fucking hard, aren't they just? Yeah. Totally. And so instead of seeing it as fluffy, girly, touched fairly, often, yeah. The people without those skills, without emotion, emotional intelligence, they are going to struggle. Yeah. You need to develop yourself in this area if you want to be able to lead or even just to exist in the workplace in the future. So in terms of workforce sustainability and having a business and building a business that's going to be sustainable for many years to come, it's crucial. But if you listen to this as a 20-year-old and you want to someday be in a leadership position, start building on those skills now and understand how it works and understand the difference between human-centered and business-centered leadership.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

The outcomes for business that comes from leading in a different way. Because that is even if it's I mean, it's not just us saying it, it's not just us believing it is the way that the wordplace is headed. Totally. Reality.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

100%. And Simone, I'll tell you another thing. So I've been trained in the best of organizational culture change theories and practices and all sorts of stuff and tools and accreditations. These people who created these theories and tools and accreditations were consultants in the 1970s and 80s who probably hadn't worked within the workplace, who were generally male, white male as well. And now when I look at the workplace, there's two ways of organizational culture. There's the old way of Simone's a cog in the wheel. If Simone's at work, she will be productive for us. Boring. Gone are those days. Which is why I wrote Make Work Meaningful, How to Create a Culture That Leaves a Legacy. Now I come more from an emotive organizational culture perspective, right? Because guess what? We're humans and we're led by emotions. As much as you want to deny it, that's the friggin' truth, right? So we can take control, we can take agency first off of our own career and of our own selves and of our own values. And the legacy that we want to leave, because you talked a lot about earlier, that missing alignment to purpose, which is a huge issue for the workplace, right? Forget even aligning yourself to the bigger purpose of the workforce, align yourself to your own purpose first, and then you know where you will fit in. So I think that's the first biggest step you can do. That gives you agency and that gives you capability.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

And you asked the question, what's your legacy? Yeah. I would pose the question, what's your purpose? What are your pet and what are your personal values?

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Yes, exactly. Well, when I ask a big legacy question, people freak out someone, which I love. But then they go down to, oh, well, if that's my legacy, then that means that was what my purpose is. And therefore, if that's my purpose, that's what my values are. So it's this beautiful slowdown effect as well.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. When you when when you explain it to people and say, when you worked in that workplace and it just didn't feel right, and you didn't know what was wrong because everybody was nice. The job was good, it paid well, but there was just something about it, you just didn't like it. That's the misalignment of values. Hundred percent. And it needs to be talked about more and normalized more. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people don't think about when they're going to a job interview, they're not thinking about why do I want to work here? What is it about this job that is going to make me feel feel fulfilled and it's going to set my soul on fire? Exactly. How much does it pay because I have rent to pay and I need to eat and I'd like to take some holidays? Yeah. People need to think about building well-being and satisfaction in their life, not as a means to an end.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Exactly. And I talk about the fact that we spend longer during the working day at work with our colleagues than we do with our loved ones. It has to be a good place to be. But then you need to be open and alert enough to choose the right place for you. Like, yeah, have your senses about you, do the hard work, which is soft skills work. Find out what your legacy is, work out what your frigging purpose is, work out what your values are, and then align yourself to the right organization. And I've learned that myself. Yeah, I learned it the hard way. But as soon as I had that aha moment, Simone, life was better, work was better. Well, you learn it by going somewhere shitty, don't you? Being there done that many a time, I tell you. Being there done that exactly so. Simone, I could talk to you forever, but for this one, I thank you so, so much. What a juicy conversation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Thank you so much for inviting me on the podcast series. I really appreciate it. My pleasure had a great morning of discussion. So much fun.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yeah. All details about this episode are in the show notes. If you like this episode, I'd like you to take a moment and think about at least two people who might enjoy it. Details, episode, details, episode.