38. How Effective is Group and Team Coaching with Ro Gorell and Prina Shah?

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with Myself Preenasha, where we uncover today how you can find ways to optimize your organizational cultures. Hello and welcome to this episode of Ways to Change Your Workplace with Myself Preenasha. And I'm really, really, really excited to introduce you to Ro Gorall today, who I'm going to be speaking with about the topic of how effective is group and team coaching? Now, I'd like to do a personal introduction to Ro because I have a story and a half. In my corporate days, Ro, I was working as an organizational development manager and focusing on all things change management. And I heard about this thing called team coaching and group coaching long ago. And Ro is based in Perth in Western Australia, which is where I am. And I came across your name. I don't even know how, Ro. I have been fangirling over Ro for years and years. And then once I started my own business, I was at a networking event. And guess who was there? Ro. And I spoke to Ro, and that was a few years ago. And we have been friends, business associates, and just supporters of each other. Ro is beautiful. Ro, I want to do a little bit of an introduction to you, and then I just want to hand over to you. So, in terms of introducing Ro, Ro Gorrell is the founder of Grow Talent, dedicated to creating great culture through coaching and Ro's uh director of Change Optimized. Group coaching and change management are two wonderful things that Ro does. Ro has an international consultancy supporting leaders to navigate transformational change. And it really is about transformational change. Roe specializes in organizational change, team coaching, and helping organizations through rapid and continuous change, which is the state of the world at the moment, Ro. And one of the other wonderful things about how small Perth is, is that I was supporting a client on a leadership development program last year through group coaching itself. And I asked for slides of the participants who had done leadership development coaching first off. So you do a leadership development coaching module first, and then you do the group coaching with me for that deep dive. And hey, guess who was giving the leadership development module on change management? I think it was, Ro, wasn't it? Ro, we continue to cross paths. So it's only that we talk with each other through the form of a podcast as well. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed for that very kind introduction. My pleasure. Ro, do you want to introduce yourself and tell us what you do, how you got to where you are, and most importantly, why you do it, please?

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Okay, so what I do is a bit of sort of magic, I guess, um, in terms of creativity. So obviously it's called team, group coaching, change management, but I guess the thing that I really do is help others understand what it is they're trying to achieve and then work with them to get to that outcome. And that could be through a variety of ways, but it's primarily using my creativity. So we might start with a sort of a frame in terms of how we're going to work together, you know, the training, whatever it might be. And then through the course of the training, through the course of conversations, there might be something that just triggers an idea. And then I might, you know, particularly where clients get stuck and I might say, Oh, you know, how about we try this? So it's that very much sort of having that anchor of all the team coaching, group coaching, change management, and then using that in the specific context in which I'm I'm working. So that's a little bit about what I do and how I do it. Why do I do it? Um, I guess why I did do it is many, many years ago I started work in um a factory. So after leaving university, I the it was during the 80s when there was a recession on in the UK. Yeah. And um I needed to earn some money. So I started working in a factory and I loved it working there. They're just brilliant people, and I just loved the activities that we got involved in because it was making things with your hands. Um, but the best thing about it was, or maybe and the best thing about it, was that it was all about getting to know the people in the factory, get becoming friends with them, watching how everybody worked, watching how the leaders in the organization worked. And I just thought this really is not a great environment for the people working here. And the way that the all the leaders are leading this team, because it was a small family-run business, is maybe not the best way to get the best out of people. Um, and so I kind of went down that route and sort of spent a year working in a museum after that. And I thought, do you know what? I really want to help people in organisations. So I went into HR thinking that that would be the answer, which clearly it wasn't, um, because that's mainly about the sort of the contract and making sure that people follow the rules and all that kind of stuff. And it's very constraining from a creative point, well, I found it constraining from a creativity point of view. Um, so I moved out of that into a business improvement role, which I really love because that is about helping the organization develop. It's about helping individuals work out better ways of doing business. So everything I do is all about making the workplace a better place for people and bringing out everybody's talents. Yeah. Because we've all got talents, but they don't always get recognized in organizations because these stupid policies that is about talent management that focuses on the top 10 or whatever percent. And that to me doesn't honor the skills and abilities of everybody, regardless of what role they do in the organization. Everybody is contributing to the profit and loss of that business. Yeah. Um, but you can tell I'm getting passionate now. So that's what drives me is that helping people have a better experience at work and getting everybody's talents working to greater good. Um, and that might might sound a bit sort of, you know, grand and um aspirational, but that's that's really what drives me, is because I really do believe that everybody makes a contribution. Yep. Um I want everybody to be recognized that contribution. So that's why I do what I do.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

100%. Thank you so much, Ro. Um, I was writing as you were talking, and you've said a fair few things as well. I completely share your vision, which is why everything that I do is focused on ways to change the workplace in a positive way. So that's my brand. And you completely just talked, you talk my language. From a consulting perspective, it sounds like you work in a really holistic way and not a woo-woo holistic way, in a practical holistic way, in that if I'm working with you, you look at A, B, and C, and then you'll consider other options. You won't just have, you know, often when we work with consultants, or we're both consultants, often we are asked to go into a workplace and just go from A, B to C. And it's not very creative and it's a bit soul restoring as well, you know, if you have those kinds of projects. But Roe's really, from what I've seen, and from what I've seen when we've crossed paths as well, Ro is one of these people who will challenge you and question you constructively to make sure that you get the best outcome and that you land in the best place possible, yeah, which is what I've seen. Um, and I love that. You are also similar to me. I wrote a failed HR person, but it's not a failed HR person, it's a bit of a disillusioned HR person, very similar to you. I went into HR because I wanted to find ways to change the workplace. And then when you're working internally, you're you're constrained by the red tape and politics and other crap that happens, and we are free of that now.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, at one stage, I once, you know, my career trajectory was, you know, HR director, yeah, whatever, in a in a blue chip company. That was that was my career trajectory. And then I had a sort of a moment reflection when I didn't really like the person I was becoming. Yes, same. Because I was being asked to do stuff that went against my values, and also I didn't, I've got a very strong fairness driver, and I felt that some of the things I was being asked to do I didn't think were very fair, yeah, um, and just so strong justice driver as well. So, all of those things I just thought, you know what? I've had enough of this HR role and I want to move on. So I did an HR role for 10 years, so it's not like I didn't give it a good go, I did, but it just wasn't in sync with who I wanted to be.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

I I wrote yesterday, uh I posted on LinkedIn about um heartbreak in my career, so to speak. It was Valentine's Day yesterday. Heartbreak in the sense of one conversation I had to have with my manager at the time when I was working in HR, leading an amazingly successful HR team. But wrote, I was just dreading that phone call, you know, because it would just be crappy people issues all the time, constantly. It's just, it's like you're firefighting. It didn't feel like I was being proactive whatsoever. So I ended up building the guts and the courage to have a conversation with my then manager to say, I resent my job and to have that conversation or something else, and it just changed the trajectory of my career as a result. So I'm I'm happy to have had that difficult conversation. And I know that there's many HR people who listen to this podcast also, who may well relate. So, for the purposes of those people who are listening, this podcast is about finding ways to change your workplace. So, yes, you might have your red tape, you might be limited with whatever, but you still can be creative in your role. And that's what we're gonna share with you. I want to talk to Ro about how effective is group and team coaching. And uh, Ro, do you want to tell us about your latest book first off?

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Today. The the actual cover design talks to me about self-organizing systems because it looks like it's gonna be a self-organizing system. So that's another reason why I love the book cover. Um, so yeah, this is really primarily aimed at people who may be coaching teams or perhaps leaders who are being asked to take more of a coaching role in teams. And what I aim to do, and you know, people are reading the book can tell me whether or not I succeeded, what I aim to do was to make it very practical and also include research and evidence-based approaches and further resources so that people could go and check it out for themselves. So it's it's designed as a sort of a almost a taster, yeah, um, but giving you just enough to get going and to think about the key issues and the key challenges and some of the key benefits of coaching teams so that they can actually self-organize. So, our prime directive in coaching teams is that we want to leave the team capable of coaching itself when we move on, and that's what it's all about. So that's that's the prime directive of the book is to help team coaches and leaders actually do that.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Beautiful. And the book is called Coaching Self-organizing teams, helping teams flourish. And it was published last year. So well done. I remember when you were writing it, yes. Very proud of you, Ro. Very, very proud of you. Ro self-live self-reflection and learning from others are really important leadership skills, yet it's still difficult for some people to adapt to. Why is that, first off, from your perspective?

SPEAKER_00 11:31

So, having worked in many different organizations throughout my career, I think one of the things that, and having been a leader myself, one of the things that's really challenging is that you're always being asked to sort something out in terms of whether it be a prices or whether you need to go and speak to a prospective customer, whether you need to speak to an existing customer who's got an issue. Um, so all of those things challenge the priority order of things that you need to do, and they will always be kind of the top of your list. Yeah. And then when you're working long hours as a leader, which you typically are, you then are too tired. So it's you you're kind of you're kind of trying to work with all of those challenges, and you maybe haven't got enough space in your head then to do the reflection. Yeah. But what one of the habits I created in my last big corporate role, which was back in the UK, was most mornings I would have this routine where I would get into work, I would switch on my computer. It would then take about half an hour to go through all the security protocols because we had so many to make sure that we weren't getting any viruses coming in and what have you. So I'd switch on my computer, let it do its stuff, and then I would go down to the restaurant to get a coffee. And in the space of doing that, I then would be thinking through my day. And then typically I would sit in the canteen or restaurant is a posh word, um, with my notebook. And I love to draw and I love to write notes and just think through some of the things that the organization was challenged with, and I was challenged with in my role. And typically that would also mean that people would come by and have a chat with you. Yes. You'd have that reflection time, and then you'd also have that connection time. So I think you've got to do both as a leader, is you've got to reflect and you've got to connect with people in the organization. And I love that because then I found out stuff that was going on because you know, as you got as you get connection, people trust you. Yes. Uh, and you want to be trustworthy. So that was one of the habits that I I used a lot um in my my biggest corporate role um in the UK. And I did try that here when I first moved here and did another role here, yeah. Um, and that worked to a certain extent, but I don't know what it was. It did the environment didn't seem to lend itself, or or maybe it was just my perspective on the environment. Um, but that certainly worked for me in my previous corporate role. Um, that reflection, taking get creating a habit and then giving time as well to connect with people. Because as a leader, if you're not connecting with people, people won't want to follow you. And without followers, you're not a leader, are you? So 100%.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Absolutely so. It's really interesting that you say that. I tried exactly that on Monday mornings and it didn't quite work for me just because I don't know, the work culture in Australia might be a little bit different. Uh, so then I changed it to Friday afternoons, and I allowed myself balcony time or strategic thinking time time out to self-coach, which is how eventually my self-coaching journals uh that I uh published last year came into play because it really worked for me. Then I started to apply it to my coaches, and then it gets embedded into the way that you operate every single week. I do it for my own business now, every Friday afternoon. That's it, I have to do it. Just it's a bit of a brain dump, isn't it? As well, rather than taking stuff into the weekend in your head, have that time to strategically think and to self-coach or self-reflect, and then go on and be merry and have a lovely weekend. I find for me, writing stuff down out of my brain and onto paper, then it's there. I've done it.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely agree. Yeah, I've had loads of notebooks. Obviously, being a writer, of course, I would, but I I have to write stuff down. Also, it helps me remember stuff as well.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

Now, in in relation to group and team coaching, this is it's not a new thing, but it is a new thing to people who don't know about it, Ro. So you and I have been talking about it for a long time and actually doing it for our clients for a long time as well. But for those who don't know, like basic 101 level, what is group coaching? What is team coaching, Ro?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

So let's get it down to two distinct things. So, group coaching is where you've got a collection of individuals who aren't working interconnectedly, so they're not sharing a task and they don't actually need to work together, but they're forming a learning team. So, for the purposes of group coaching, they become a learning team. And that could be, for example, people who report to the same manager, but there's no reason for those group of individuals to be working together. And often they're called a team, but they're not. And then the team is where they all of their activities are interrelated, they're relying on each other and they're accountable to each other. And so you're coaching them how to work together more effectively to get stuff done, make decisions, and basically learn how to collaborate. So that's the difference between the two. And to a certain degree, both of them are learning teams. Yeah. But I would say the team team is definitely more learning about how they work together, whereas the group team is more about how they learn to learn.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

It does, it does. So let's talk about talk about group coaching and the benefits of group coaching, Ro.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

The benefits of group coaching have been outlined in many books, starting, um, I guess if you go back to the, I think it was the night 1960s, um, Napoleon Hill, I think it was how to win influence, how to win friends and influence people, or something like that. I can't remember the exact title of the book now. But he talks about the mastermindset, which was created by Andrew Carlineghi, one of the um well-known entrepreneurs, and how he would collect different people together with different skill sets and use them as a mastermind group to essentially to help him. Um, but that's kind of one of the sort of the threads of where group coaching came in. There are obviously things in the business improvement arena like lean, you know, like quality circles, which is all about that sort of group coaching, although obviously they're more of a team in that sense. So that's kind of where group coaching came from. And the benefit is that you do get all the power of those brains working together. And one of the, so Reg Revens was one of the um fantastic sort of organizational psychologist, you know, development guys in the 1960s, and he created something called um a concept to action learning sets, which you will definitely be familiar with. And that concept of the mastermind group then was used in those action learning sets. You know, people would come with a problem or a challenge or an opportunity that they wanted to workshop with others, and the other people in the learning set would then put them in the hot seat, and they would then ask them about what the situation is, give them thoughts, ask some further questions, and come up with some suggestions, which the person in the learning hot seat would then take on without qualifying and judging. Yeah. And then they could go away and work out okay, what's going to work for me based on what those minds in the room have actually come up with. So that's the benefit of the group coaching, is that you get all of those minds working together, and you're going to get the more diverse the group is, the better, because you get more ideas and different perspectives on the same problem. So it's about that jihari window where you can't necessarily see the stuff that's blind to you.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

So the learn the team scenario, obviously, you've got that plus where the team is working together on a shared objective and shared tasks, yeah. Work out how are they going to work together to produce that outcome. And so the benefits of that is that obviously, again, you've got that diversity of thinking. You've also got that ability to learn how you collaborate around things like conflict, um, how you actually prioritize tasks, how you understand role clarity, all those kinds of things, which are learn skills that benefit the team, they also benefit the stakeholders. Yeah. And also means that the organization, in my view, is creating that learning organization because those skills can then be the word I think of is proselytized, which is a big fancy word for spreading news into the rest of the organization. So you be you get a self-perpetuating system by teams getting coached and then coaching other teams and so forth and so on. And there are organizations who already do this really well, like BurtSorg. Um, one of the organizations we worked with has some amazing people in there is Leak, which is a Swiss-based organization. So there are organizations that already do this really well. Yeah. Um, and obviously the organization benefits because at the end of the day, you get happier stakeholders, you get clarity around what the hell it is that you're trying to deliver, higher productivity. I mean, the end the list goes on and on and on.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

The cost-benefit analysis is just fantastic for it because you're coaching from a group perspective. Ro, in relation to group coaching, I've got a practical example. I remember when I was working in my corporate last ever role, and we delivered a leadership development program, as you do every year or every two years. They're usually vanilla, and I really wasn't feeling it. This was near the end of my career, and I was thinking, okay, let's just push as many buttons as I can to see how creative I can get. So, with this leadership development program, my last ever one, what we ended up doing, and the organization, the executive accepted it, is having two things for these leaders. So it was senior managers who got uh that leadership development, you know, your top talent. And what we did was we had um group coaching for them. So there were all of these different brains in the room who'd get together every so often, and we gave them action learning projects, which were set by the executive in real life, real time issues which were you know faced by that workforce that I was in. So they were working on real, tangible, definite problems. At the end of you know, their leadership development program, yes, they got the you know, bum on seat kind of training, but then in addition to that, they built relationships with each other. Other, they got to know each other more so. Ro, they broke silos, they're still keeping in touch with each other today. You know, when I walk around Perth, especially near that suburb, I see these people having coffees with each other and maintaining that relationship.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

So I think what it really did, it was beyond leadership development. It helped develop the organizational culture. Absolutely. Absolutely. Honestly, so so areas that were, you know, so disparate, didn't talk to each other, didn't even want to know each other just because they did very different things. Now we're really talking with each other and getting to know each other properly. I've had lots of queries lately, especially this year and actually end of last year, about team coaching. And one thing I'm finding from my business's perspective, and I want to ask you this as well, is that the proactive teams are really focusing on their team brand, who they stand for, what value they give to the internal organization, and what value they give to the external stakeholders as well. Without defining that, teams just scurry around, you know, in a lockdown, out of a lockdown, or whatever is happening within the world. So it may not even be pandemic time, you know. We always have, like you said, these fires that we constantly have to put out as teams. The teams who are looking at themselves from that team brand perspective, how they represent themselves, how they stand up for themselves and for each other, how they serve their clients. These conversations are just so enlightening for me and just so heartwarming as well, you know, for me to witness as a facilitator of this group team coaching, to see the outcomes at the end, Row, are just something else. And then again, is that impact not only on the customer, but the internal culture of the organization as well. So, hello, yeah, team coaching bonus there.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Are you doing much team coaching at the moment, Ro, from a practical perspective? Is there anything you want to share in terms of juicy stories and case studies or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

So I think just picking up on that um example you gave there, one of the teams that I've worked with recently, that identity was really important. If you think about who we are as individuals, our identity and how we ascribe that identity is really important, isn't it? Because that then generates our self-worth, self-esteem, and self-perspective. So, and that's the same with teams. So if a team is really working well together, they will have an identity as a team. And I'm guessing for me, one of the key tenets of whether or not a team is successful is how they identify. Do they identify as a team? And is the team important to them, or do they identify as an individual within a team? And this team that I work with at the start of the journey, that self-identity piece was really important, and it was brilliant to see how they developed that. And they definitely did have an identity, which probably because they're quite newly formed, it probably wasn't as obvious to them. But something coming in from the outside, you could kind of see, and it was it was kind of it was almost like two sections within the team, and it was nice to see the team starting to merge together as one team, yeah. And that's when you know it's like you know, you go into battle for your team, you know. If somebody says something about your team colleague, you know, you go to protect because you've got that sense of identity and belonging, and that's the real test of a team. Obviously, the downside to that is that that can sometimes be quite challenging for new members coming into the team. Oh, yes, okay, and also for the organization working with the team as well. So you it's kind of that balancing act, understanding that you know, when you welcome new people into the team, it's a new team. Yes, you've got to start that process of gaining that identity all over again because you are now a different team from the one that you were. Um, and I was having a conversation with somebody um a couple of weeks ago about this because a few members of the team have moved on, and new members are coming in, and then one of the team members was saying, but it will be the same. And they were going, No, it won't be the same. No, new people, so we've got to create that that identity and that bonding again because we've got different, it's a different dynamic. So, yeah, so that's that identity piece is really important to understand, and then understand how you're going to help the team work together to work through that. Because at the end of the day, it's the team's responsibility to come up with ideas and solutions, not the team coach.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

No, exactly. And they're the ones who are held accountable for doing what they're supposed to be doing. How how do people know if their organization can utilize team or group coaching role?

SPEAKER_00 26:49

I think most organizations can utilize it. Where you've got a team that's in real dysfunction, then team coaching is not the first port of call. And maybe where the team leader isn't open to it. If you've got, say, members of the team who maybe aren't open to it, then you could still coach the team, but they then become you know suppliers to the team. So you're either in or out. You can't you can't be half pregnant, as the saying goes. You're either part of the team or you're not. If you don't want to be part of the team, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

And then you you create some sort of service level agreement between you and the team in terms of supplying into that team. So there are a number of things that would you'd need to go in and do that discovery piece to understand is this team coachable? Is the organization coachable? Are they willing to support the team? Are the right um things in place to help them do that? Um, but most organizations, to be fair, can be coachable. It's it's those, you know, it's those red and red warning lights around dysfunction and willingness. So I had a couple of years ago, I did a talk called Ready, Willing, and Able about coaching cultures. And the same applies to team coaching, that the, you know, the team, the organization have got to be ready, they've got to be willing and they've got to be able. In other words, they've got to have the resources for them to be supported to actually go through the team coaching journey.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Perfect. And I've actually seen Ro, uh, renegades out there who I love, renegades out there who are trying this with a little program that they're piloting first off in the form of group coaching, which you know, I did last year, then I learned that you were one of the trainers also. Um, and I'm so proud of that client for running with that pilot because it was really proud. And then I'm seeing some leaders who are really seeing the impact of their team and on their team of the lack of having an identity and a brand. And the renegade managers are thinking, nah, I need to do something different and actually focus on my whole team rather than, you know, the elite or the high potential of the team. And that has just been a whole uh game changer for the people who I am supporting from that perspective, because now, hey, we're all on the same level, you know, because we're dealing with hierarchies, you know, the larger the organization, the worse the hierarchy, generally speaking, it is. So from a team coaching perspective, it just puts everyone at that same level. So one of the things I do, and you know, it's really important, as you said also, Ro, that first conversation has to be are you ready, willing, and able? Brilliant. And then what are our ground rules? Yeah. You know, um, really important. So creating that psychological safety as we would do in a one-to-one coaching situation as well, and building the rapport, not only with each individual as that team facilitator, but then for themselves to deal with whatever crap has happened historically. Yeah, you have to get to a point where you draw a line in the sand and you're ready to move on and work on yourselves going forward. Are there any other practical tips you have, Ro?

SPEAKER_00 29:57

You've shared lots with us already. I would say if you're going into team to coach a team, yeah, uh you obviously you need to have some skills and tools uh in your toolkit. Yes. I'd say probably the the key, and I talk about this a lot in my group coaching book, and I'm obviously revisit it in the self-organizing teams book as well, is that ability as a coach to put your own ego out outside in the passageway rather than bring it into the room. Yeah. Every time you coach a team, every time whether it's a group or a team or individuals, you are role modeling for them what it is that you're actually coaching them in. Yeah. So if you yourself can't actually put your own ego out of it, then it's going to be pretty hard for the team to do the same because they will be they will pick up on the nuances that you don't even know that you're giving out. Yeah. So I would say you need whenever you go into a room, whether it's consulting, whatever it is, yes, you need to be able to demonstrate your expertise, but you also be able to demonstrate, or and you also need to be able to demonstrate that humility. Yeah. So curiosity. I think if you've got curiosity, then you're automatically going to be putting yourself into that beginner's mind, which then helps the team be curious. So, you know, when they they're faced with a challenge, when they're faced with a bit of conflict, it's like, hang on a minute, let's just reflect what's happening here. Let's just pause and understand what is really going on here. And then the conversation emerges, and one obviously, whatever that conversation is, is whatever the conversation is. And then you, as a team coach, need to be able to help them navigate through that conversation. Um, and sometimes it will feel uncomfortable, by the way. So again, you've got to feel comfortable being uncomfortable. Yeah. Because if you aren't, then you can't expect the team to be.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

No. Oh my gosh. Uh, one of the things I talk about, Ro, and I'm really mindful of, and you know, you know, when we study coaching and all of those kinds of things as well, one of the biggest things I was taught was the positional power that I have as a coach, the influence that one has as a coach or you know, even a leader or whatever, it's humongous uh and yeah, very palpable as well, you know, when there's all eyes on you. So very, very true there. Curiosity. And I also find also, and no doubt you do, Ro, from any kind of coaching, I learn so much from my clients, as you know, much as I give back as well, because it's a constant, okay. So this has happened this week. Okay, so I need to go and research, look up more tools from wonderful books that I read and you know, research that I do. I just pointed to Ro's book for uh people who are listening in. Good resource, but yeah, you have to constantly keep on top of everything for yourself as a coach or a consultant.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

I think I I would agree with that, and I would also add that also be kind to yourself as well. That your greatest tools are listening. Yeah, yeah. Creating the space for others to listen. There, you know, if you're really thinking, oh, what tool can I use here? Then that's maybe not the right question. The right question is how can I help the team? Given where we're at, how can I help the team by being a resource for the team in the way that's going to be helpful to them? And sometimes that might be a question like, okay, so how can I help you here in this moment? Or what would what is it that you need from me to help you as a team?

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Yeah. A big open question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And then that talks to active listening, it talks to mindfulness and being present and all of the good stuff that you're supposed to be as a coach, consultant, all of the above. I think, yeah, we can talk about so much. I think that's another podcast conversation. Positional power that a coach has. Oh, yes, definitely. Yes. Lots to consider there. Uh Ro, I've got one final question for you, which I ask everyone. If I was to give you a magic wand, what is one way that you would change the way of the workplace, Ro?

SPEAKER_00 33:56

So um, one of the aims of writing the book on coaching self-organizing teams is about democratizing the workplace. Um, so this might be a bit a little bit controversial as well.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

I think our the model, our commercial model, our business model at the moment is very much that big is better. And so you've got all these massive organizations, you know, and I used to do acquisitions. So businesses acquiring other businesses because they want to expand their reach or revenue, whatever it might be, actually that undermines that ability of workers in the workplace to be and do their best, unless you organize it in a different way. And so if I had a magic wand, I would actually completely change the way that organizations employ people and um manage people. I would make it a much more democratic environment. And certainly I would also democratize the way that revenues and tax and all that kind of stuff is actually allocated because, and this is getting really big, hairy, audacious goals here that the world has enough resources, we have enough food, we have enough of everything to do and feed and look after everybody. What gets in the way is what we just talked about a moment ago, positional power and status. That's what it's all about. So you've really got me on my um my passion point here, and I could talk forever on that. So that's all I'm going to say.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

And everybody, that's why you can see why I love Ro. Ro, thank you so much. To be continued, I feel.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Definitely, definitely. Thank you. I've loved it. I obviously talking about my favourite topic, you're never gonna have to shut me up. Thank you very much. It's been fantastic talking with you.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

My pleasure. If you want to meet great thinkers who stand against crappy workplace cultures, lousy leaders, and toxic teams, then you need to join the Ways to Change Your Workplace Facebook group, which is linked in today's show notes. I will see you in the next episode. Bye for now.